Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 0;andrew.cmu.edu;Network-Mail Received: from andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr1/ota/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr1/ota/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Wed, 24 Aug 88 04:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 24 Aug 88 04:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by andrew.cmu.edu (5.54/3.15) id for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr1/ota/space/space.dl; Wed, 24 Aug 88 04:06:11 EDT Received: by angband.s1.gov id AA02774; Wed, 24 Aug 88 01:06:15 PDT id AA02774; Wed, 24 Aug 88 01:06:15 PDT Date: Wed, 24 Aug 88 01:06:15 PDT From: Ted Anderson Message-Id: <8808240806.AA02774@angband.s1.gov> To: Space@angband.s1.gov Reply-To: Space@angband.s1.gov Subject: SPACE Digest V8 #335 SPACE Digest Volume 8 : Issue 335 Today's Topics: Re: 95% vs. 99.9% reliability Re: Automated vs. personned spacecraft Re: 95% vs. 99.9% reliability Re: SETI The galaxy at the edge of the universe Re: SETI (& STI) Space Station Info Needed Re: death of Anatoly Lewtschenko Spacesploitation Re: SETI (was Re: Time dilation affecting SETI) Re: skintight suits ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Aug 88 03:29:42 GMT From: ecsvax!cjl@mcnc.org (Charles Lord) Subject: Re: 95% vs. 99.9% reliability No, Keith - that does not make them incompetent. (boy, I wish I could spell tonight!) The Space Program has always been a progressing system of better systems designed to not only perform a function but also provide a platform for new technologies in the future. Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Shuttle: each was ordered in a set quantity with the understanding that there would be a newer, better vehicle coming. The problem is that the cutbacks (massive) following the moon landings began to spell doom for this system. The second generation shuttle was on the drawing board for a long time (and still is - the USAF is the only entity that has a real budget for their version of the "orient express"), and didn't follow suit because the American public through their representatives in DC decided the massive spending was better funneled elsewhere. The delays, politics, and infighting when coupled with the explosion have all but guaranteed no relief to that situation. Turnover at NASA as well as the contractors has made it a nightmare for those responsible for getting them airborne. That supposively was the reason for the FRF glitches/delays. Too many ground personnel had never actually prepped a shuttle for launch... The real point of my rambling is that the shuttle in its antiquity is not to be expanded - it was meant to be (and SHOULD be) superceeded. -- Charles Lord ..!decvax!mcnc!ecsvax!cjl Usenet Cary, NC cjl@ecsvax.uncecs.edu Bitnet #include #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 88 16:15:10 GMT From: mcvax!ukc!cam-cl!scc@uunet.uu.net (Stephen Crawley) Subject: Re: Automated vs. personned spacecraft [My apologies to those who think that SF does not belong in sci.space ...] In article <3696@thorin.cs.unc.edu> symon@lhotse.cs.unc.edu (James Symon) writes: >Somebody had cat brains for pilots, quicker reflexes. (Actually, >working in tandem with human pilots, as I remember) I expect you are recalling "The Game of Rat and Dragon" by Cordwainer Smith. It is currently in print in a collection of CS's short stories entitled "The Rediscovery of Man". Classic SF this: worth every penny. -- Steve ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 88 13:49:57 GMT From: mailrus!uflorida!novavax!proxftl!greg@rutgers.edu (Gregory N. Hullender) Subject: Re: 95% vs. 99.9% reliability In article <1988Aug9.205520.5911@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >"If the same thing had happened to the Soviets, they would have >swept the debris off the launch pad, hoisted the next launcher onto the >pad, and started the countdown. Anyone who objected would have been told >where to go, or sent there." I imagine they would also have sent various officials from Morton Thiokol and Nasa off to the Gualag, if not had them shot. As I recall, a fair amount of the pressure for putting safety first came from the astronauts themselves; considering just how shoddy Nasa had gotten, I can understand their point of view. Read "Challenger: A Major Malfunction" for a more detailed description. Fortunately, we don't live in the Soviet Union; however, considering your callous disregard for human life and warm regard for the power of a police state to stifle dissent, perhaps you should consider relocating. -- Greg Hullender uflorida!novavax!proxftl!greg 3511 NE 22nd Ave / Fort Lauderdale, FL 33308 My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 88 16:58:36 GMT From: ndsuvax!nekinsel@uunet.uu.net (Peter Kinsella) Subject: Re: SETI In article <587138396.iaeh@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU> you write: >I don't think one can assume that advanced civilizations do broadcast >signals with the purpose to make themselves known, for the following >reason. > >Suppose there exist some incredibly vicious species somewhere out >there, a race that routinely seeks out intelligent civilizations and >exploit them rutlessly. Aren't we making a few rather large assumptions. If we assume that life exists elswhere in the universe. 1. That the warring society can travel to conquer the broadcasting world before that society developes sufficent technology to defend itself. (faster then the speed of light ?) 2. That it can travel in such numbers as to conquer a whole planet. 3. If it had the technology to transfer enough people to take over the planet of a lesser thechnology what would it gain ? (welfare recipients? ) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 88 22:03:58 GMT From: aplcen!jhunix!ins_aaaa@mimsy.umd.edu (Deen Ilyas) Subject: The galaxy at the edge of the universe A couple of days ago astronomers in Baltimore (I'm not sure, but I think it must be the Space Telescope Institute) discovered the most distant galaxy ever seen. There are a couple of problems that arise from this discovery. For example, it has been thought that the age of the universe is around fourteen billion years old. Yet the distance measured to the newly discovered galaxy exceeds that number. Was the composition of the galaxy mostly hydrogen-helium or was the composition of the galaxy heavy elements? How can we reconcile this discovery with the big bang theory? Does anyone on the net knows the answer to these questions? I would appreciate it very much if anyone could supply the information and contribute to the discussion. Thanks in advance. Deen Ilyas ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 88 20:46:37 GMT From: trwrb!aero!mac@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Robert McGwier) Subject: Re: SETI (& STI) In article <1988Aug10.175959.21238@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >In article <1628@spdcc.COM> eli@spdcc.COM (Steve Elias) writes: >> a species which survived its >> own nuclear self destruct phase would have evolved past >> any vicious tendencies long before the reach into deep space. >> >> (or so they say). > >Or so they say. This is an unproven hypothesis, not a well-established fact. I agree with Henry. I would think that the inevitable environmental pollution of a technological species would be a much bigger danger and that takes a great deal of energy to clean up after the damage is done. On another topic: About a year ago, after I did something for JPL they did something for me. They took me to Goldstone let me ride the big dish and talk to the folks on the SETI team. This was including Mike Klein (SETI leader at JPL), Ed Olson, Larry Rauch, and Ed Posner whose office runs the deep space network. One thing was clear from our discussions. At that time, they were doing a hell of a lot of work on figuring out what was the best strategy for DETECTING a signal (targeted super sensitive search or all-sky not so sensitive search). For them to be able to do a targeted transmitted signal, they have to use resources available to them. This would imply that they have to use the antennas used by the folks at Ames and JPL and all of these are high gain and very directional. Which direction would you have them point in? If they knew this, we would not be discussing SETI since the SEARCH would be over ;-). What frequencies would you have them use? The quiet frequency zones for radio astronomy? Or those guaranteed by international treaty to be for the use of other services? I think you get the idea. Transmitting doesn't seem to be a part of the plan. I'm a signal processing theoretician and don't represent them or claim any special knowledge of what has gone since that meeting. My last impression was that this was a listen only project. On 145 Mhz, we do transmit and receive on those bands from our AMSAT OSCAR's and Soviet RS's. They are not all that transparent however. Dispersion is a problem and other funnies happen to signals on these bands. As you go even higher, water in the atmosphere begins to become very absorbent, etc. The world above 145 is not a panacea for pointing at space. Bob McGwier N4HY ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 88 22:53:56 GMT From: cs.utexas.edu!sm.unisys.com!csun!polyslo!jsalter@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (The Math Hacker) Subject: Space Station Info Needed Can anyone point me to any information about the viable alternatives to the manned Space Station. Specifically, the use of robotics instead of permanently-manned modules; the effects on micro-gravity experiments by the introduction of people moving about; the use of the heavy-lift shuttle (Shuttle-C, I think) for building as opposed to the regular shuttle; and anything else. It's easy to come up with reasons for the station, especially when I'm already for it. What about arguments against it? (The pro-earth people should know by now that space exploration is not only important, but imperative. I really need better counter-arguments than "we should spend money on earth-bound needs instead") Thanks for any help. -- James A. Salter -- Yes, math majors can use UNIX(tm), too... jsalter@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU | sin(x)/n = 6 (Cancel the n's!) ...!ucbvax!voder!polyslo!jsalter | "Type h for help." -- rn ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 88 14:57:52 GMT From: mcvax!ukc!etive!bob@uunet.uu.net (Bob Gray) Subject: Re: death of Anatoly Lewtschenko In article <612@ecrcvax.UUCP> bruno@ecrcvax.UUCP (Bruno Poterie) writes: >The soviet cosmonaut Anatoly Lewtschenko died last Saturday, >of a "big desease" (no more precision). The report I heard said it was a brain tumor. Note also that he was the Soviet's main test pilot for their shuttle, so the first launch may be further delayed if they do intend to fly it manned. Bob. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1988 14:58-EDT From: Dale.Amon@h.gp.cs.cmu.edu Subject: Spacesploitation Much that you say about the way the statists deal with free people is true. I fear very much that the only way we will be able to defend our property rights on the moon or anywhere else is to be prepared to shoot back when the UN version of a 'coast guard' tries to enforce these assinine treaties. I did not sign and would not have signed these treaties. I am not bound by them. PERIOD. I give them NO allegience whatsoever. My only long term allegiance is to libertarian principles, not to any government, whether it be the one which currently CLAIMS it has jurisdiction over me, or that of A UN agency in the future that makes such claims on my person or property off earth. I submit to the tyranny of neither, now or then. Anything I do that assists a government at this time is either out of the wisdom of not marching unarmed into a machine gun, or of helping statists to go as close to the direction I desire as possible. I am myself not the type to ever take up arms, but should the UN or other agency ever attempt to enforce their 'rights' over space, I hope the residents in that distant decade blow their imperial asses all the way back to Earth. The only thing that will be unfortunate (on that far future date) is that those asses will belong to innocent 18 and 19 year olds who have been fed statist propaganda from childhood. Those responsible, as is always the case, will sit back in their easy chairs while others do the dying. That is the way of all statists, whether they are commie-statists or capitalist-statists or fascist-statists. When it comes to expending lives for 'the glory of the state', for 'state interests', there is absolutely no difference between a Reagan, a Gorbachev, a Botha, or an Ortega. People will be free. They will protect their property rights one way or another. With blood, if necessary. Space is too big for any government or agency to control. Can't we EVER learn that imperialism doesn't work? And when you get down to it, that is ALL that treaties like the moon treaty really are: a means of enforcing an Earth based imperialism of the solar system. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 88 19:14:24 GMT From: sugar!peter@uunet.uu.net (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: SETI (was Re: Time dilation affecting SETI) In article <1628@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu>, jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt) writes: > Want to kill 2 birds with 1 stone? Dump all the weapons-grade plutonium > into the sun! > 1. Weapons-grade plutonium is not that great thing to have on earth. Weapons-grade plutonium is a valuable substance. It can be used to generate electrical power. The idea of wasting it in this manner is abhorrent. Better to burn the Mona Lisa. -- Peter da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net Have you hugged U your wolf today? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 88 15:57:38 GMT From: attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!db.toronto.edu!hogg@uunet.uu.net (Jo Thas m1@ WaGManystieayson lon looacec`- . 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