Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from beak.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Sun, 15 Jul 1990 01:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Sun, 15 Jul 1990 01:59:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPACE Digest V12 #72 SPACE Digest Volume 12 : Issue 72 Today's Topics: Re: LLNL Space Station Re: Multiple probes Re: HST update by Jim Westphal (LOOOOONG) Re: Is an asteroid capture possible/feasible? Re: Ideas Needed for Manned Exploration of Moon and Mars Re: Nasa's budget Re: NSS protests Chinese launch pricing Re: Oppose manned Mars exploration -- support robotics Re: LLNL Space Station Re: Is an asteroid capture possible/feasible? Re: space weapons Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription notices, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Jul 90 18:35:46 GMT From: swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!hacgate!aic!yamauchi@ucsd.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Subject: Re: LLNL Space Station In article <64714@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV> loren@tristan.UUCP (Loren Petrich) writes: >In article 27000@AECLCR.BITNET (SIMMONS DONALD F) writes: >> >> Where can I find full details about the LLNL Inflatable Space Station? >>I don't mean the half-column blurb I have found in most magazines. I want >>details: materials, construction time, power supply, deployment, the works. > As someone who has seen some of LLNL's plans, I think them a >good thing to pursue. Is there some sort of technical report available on the LLNL station and/or on the Great Exploration proposal in general? Like the original poster, I would be interested in seeing the detailed information (costs, specs, timetable, etc.). How much funding has been currently been allocated to this project? Has Congress been approached yet, and if so, what has been the reaction? ______________________________________________________________________________ Brian Yamauchi Hughes Research Laboratories yamauchi@aic.hrl.hac.com Artificial Intelligence Center ______________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 90 00:56:33 GMT From: mojo!SYSMGR%KING.ENG.UMD.EDU@mimsy.umd.edu (Doug Mohney) Subject: Re: Multiple probes In article <9007132357.AA11227@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov>, roberts@CMR.NCSL.NIST.GOV (John Roberts) writes: > >>Maybe it's time to start rethinking our whole policy of space exploration. >>Back in the "Old Days" we would build two or three of everything just in >>case. Now, we come up with one and if it fails... > >If Galileo fails, we concentrate on Venus, Mars, and Saturn. If Magellan >fails, we concentrate on Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. The planets don't seem >to be going away anytime soon. Naw, we just throw away money on a failed attempt the first time 'round. And would you like to be a planetary scientist who's put in 7-10 years of your life riding on one probe which croaks on a faulty chip? >While building a second probe for a specific >mission may be cheaper than building the first one, you still may have >decreasing marginal scientific returns for your dollar. Making duplicates >on a fixed budget may force compromises in quality or ability of each probe. Duplicates are NOT bad. Magellen is built out of leftovers, as I seem to recall. If the probe dies or finds something VERY interesting, you send in probe #2, with modified parameters to do a more detailed survey. Assuming probe #2 is pretty flexable, you can drop in newer hardware and fix flaws which might have botched up probe one. >For missions that are not extremely time critical (Voyager was), if you >can build sophisticated probes that have a fairly good chance of success, >it may make the most economic sense to allocate only one for each mission. You still miss the cost of being screwed if your single probe dies. >Multiple probes for one mission might be defended as *political* insurance. >Even this is risky, since design errors may affect all the probes. (Imagine >2 or 3 blurry HSTs out there now, each one needing a shuttle visit for >repairs...) No, because A) We don't have the launch capability to put them up all at once and B) You launch one and see what happens. Number #2 stays on the ground and in a clean room until you see what happens with #1. If #1 is VERY success- ful, you send #2 for the Smithsonian, or recycle the parts. If #1 has a major malfunction, you use #2 to debug the problem of #1, or in worst case, send up #2 . ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 90 18:13:58 GMT From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!cs.utexas.edu!titan!heskett@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Donald Heskett) Subject: Re: HST update by Jim Westphal (LOOOOONG) Yeah, but what the heck did Junenal mean by that? ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 90 00:48:59 GMT From: amethyst!organpipe!hindmost!mnolan@noao.edu (Michael Nolan) Subject: Re: Is an asteroid capture possible/feasible? In article <4638.269df9fb@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> bqsy1@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Andrew Orndoroff) writes: >...have there ever been any >studies or projections on the resources needed to do an asteroid capture?... The Space Engineering Resources Center at the U of AZ is studying such things. Specifically they are looking at the availability of material for building space stations and such. One of the lowest-energy places where material is available is in asteroids whose orbits cross that of Earth. It takes less energy to get to and from some of these than it does to get to and from the Moon. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 90 20:23:26 GMT From: pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!rex!rouge!dlbres10@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Fraering Philip) Subject: Re: Ideas Needed for Manned Exploration of Moon and Mars In article <9007100034.AA25922@ibmpa.paloalto.ibm.com> szabonj@ibmpa.UUCP (Nicholas J. Szabo) writes: " Here's the specific proposal. Launch 1,000 Voyager-like probes: 5 for every planet and moon in the solar system, plus 500 to various asteroids comets. Most of Voyager's capabilities, plus many advanced capabilities not possible with Voyager, can now fit on smaller spacecraft due to progress in miniaturization since 1975. Each probe would be launched by a Delta class rocket. [stuff about bozlee's law deleted for brevity] = $22.1 million per Voyager-class probe. Add in $5.2 billion for ground facility upgrades (especially DSN) and we get a cost of $40 billion for the project, or 1/10 the cost NASA is proposing for a mission to only 2 of the thousands of interesting places in the solar system. Note that costs drop even further if we tie the scale-up in with the similar LLNL Mission To Earth proposal. [more deleted] Nick Szabo uunet!ibmsupt!szabonj" Okay, here's a better idea on what to do with that 40 billion dollars. You give one and a half billion to the SSX people, one and a half to Third Millenium for Space Van, a half billion to AMROC, and one and a half to Pacific American for Phoenix.(Or whatever combination suits you. Remember, you're just hoping _one_ of these vehicles works) While doing this, fund 10 or so probes to nearby asteroids through SSI. Since they plan a $ 20 million dollar probe to the moon, a probe with three times the capability ought to be 50 or so million (due to assembly line construction). A billion dollars ought to get 20 or so probes launched. When one of the launchers matures, a billion dollars ought to put up about (at about 500 dollars a pound) 2 million pounds of material. This is for the first manned mission to an asteroid. It ought to cost 2 billion including hardware and launch. The manned mission experiments with building things out of asteroidal material at one of the more likely sites. A second manned mission can go out to an asteroid, break it up into pieces small enough to fly into earth orbit using a magnetohydromagnetic brake of some sort (made of asteroidal iron and carbon), and send them back. By now you've spent about 10 billion, and you've got pieces of asteroid back here for analysis or sale. Depending on what you bring back, you can make the effort self-funding and spend the other 30 billion dollars this way: 10 billion dollars: assuming a cost of $ 1000 each, about ten million new refrigerators 20 billion dollars: assuming a cost of $ 10,000 each, about two million workstation-class computers to be propogated through the elementary and high schools of this nation for educational purposes. Heck, lets even donate some to NASA employees so we can still have their give- and take on the net without violating the Hatch Act. I wasn't serious when I wrote this, so for those who still don't get it, ** ** ** * *** * ** * ** ** P.S. How much does a new refrigerator cost these days? How many refrigerators could we get out of Space Station Freedom? Perhaps, though, we should be investing a couple billion (a billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money) in unorthodox ideas with high potential payoff. Phil ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 90 20:30:13 GMT From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!rex!rouge!dlbres10@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Fraering Philip) Subject: Re: Nasa's budget In article <9509.269b17a8@pbs.org> pstinson@pbs.org writes: PS>For starters let's stop calling them "critters". I don't care how low an PS>opinion you may have of individual members of Conress, or of Conress as a PS>whole, until our form of government changes we still have to deal with them. PS>Continually calling them "critters" does not help our cause one iota. If you were from the south, you'd realize that the word critter simply means creature. The word congresscritter originated (I think) with Jerry Pournelle while trying to come up with a more graceful word than 'congressperson.' ('congressman' is considered sexist). Considering that creatures are divided into critters (neutral or benign) and varmints (malign) Congresscritter isn't that bad a word. Some people would probrably rather use the other one. Phil ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 90 07:10:38 GMT From: usc!samsung!emory!hubcap!ncrcae!ncrlnk!ncr-mpd!Mike.McManus@ucsd.edu (Mike McManus) Subject: Re: NSS protests Chinese launch pricing In article kingdon@apple-gunkies.ai.mit.edu (Jim Kingdon) writes: > This > does *not* correct for things like rotating launch pads with hand > cranks rather than fancy motors or dispensing with clean rooms. I > guess if one had a list of such innovations one could try to price ^^^^^^^^^^^ > each of them, but this is all a matter of guesswork without actual > budgets of what is costing what. Perhaps "unnovation" is a better choice of words? :-) But on the serious side, while I can't say that it makes sense to replace hydraulics with human power, maybe there is room for innovation in other areas, by doing more with less. I'm not in the launch business, so excuse my ignorance, but are there options to using a clean room for assembly? Our semiconductor fab here has just been updated to use "SMIF" technology. The theory is that instead of a class 10 clean room, you can have a class 1000 (or whatever, I'm not sure) room, but you have individual hoods that are class 1-10 that are used for processing, and special po0ds for transport between these areas. My understanding is that this is a much cheaper way to go, and gives good results. I'm just wondering weather the Chinese way of doing things might not point out some easier/cheaper ways for us, without comprimising quality. Have we learned any such lessons from the way the USSR does things? -- Disclaimer: All spelling and/or grammar in this document are guaranteed to be correct; any exseptions is the is wurk uv intter-net deemuns,. Mike McManus Mike.McManus@FtCollins.NCR.COM, or NCR Microelectronics ncr-fc!mikemc@ncr-sd.sandiego.ncr.com, or 2001 Danfield Ct. uunet!ncrlnk!ncr-mpd!garage!mikemc Ft. Collins, Colorado (303) 223-5100 Ext. 307 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 90 14:39:02 GMT From: mentor.cc.purdue.edu!l.cc.purdue.edu!cik@purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) Subject: Re: Oppose manned Mars exploration -- support robotics In article <4633.269dc74a@vax5.cit.cornell.edu>, njzy@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (T. Joseph Lazio, Cornell University) writes: > In article <2341@l.cc.purdue.edu>, cik@l.cc.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes: | > In article <4557.269b1f40@vax5.cit.cornell.edu>, njzy@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (T. Joseph Lazio, Cornell University) writes: > >> Robots do have the ability to react to the unexpected, thanks to > >> human controllers on the ground. Further, I think that if you > >> examine the record, particularly of Voyager, you will see that most > >> things to which the probes had to react were equipment failures. > >> While it is easy to reroute instructions or shut down instruments, > >> it is a bit more difficult to shut down life support. | > | > This is where the time problem comes in. The problems of Voyager were not | > so urgent that a 5 hour interval between noticing the problem and correcting | > it was of importance. If Voyager had detected a rock which would hit it in | > one hour and destroy it, well, that's all, folks. ................. > Moreover, you assume that a manned craft would be able to > detect the rock in time to do something. Since the biggest > danger is not from fist or car-sized rocks but from centimeter > and millimeter sized rocks, this assumption may not be justified. > In my earlier posting, I mentioned the 10-30 minute delay involved with Mars. The problems with Mars which have been recognized are boulders, cliffs, ravines, shifting sands, etc. These are precisely the situations in which man has the great advantage. -- Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907 Phone: (317)494-6054 hrubin@l.cc.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet) {purdue,pur-ee}!l.cc!cik(UUCP) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 90 15:38:49 GMT From: ox.com!itivax!vax3.iti.org!aws@CS.YALE.EDU (Allen W. Sherzer) Subject: Re: LLNL Space Station Donald Simmons writes: > Where can I find full details about the LLNL Inflatable Space Station? I would write to Dr. Wood at LLNL or ask your Represntative or one of your Senators. If you like what you get, write back and ask why we aren't doing this. >I don't mean the half-column blurb I have found in most magazines. I want >details: materials, construction time, power supply, deployment, the works. You can't get a parts list but they do have detailed weight budgets and schedules. Allen | | In War: Resolution | | Allen W. Sherzer | In Defeat: Defiance | | aws@iti.org | In Victory: Magnanimity | | | In Peace: Good Will | ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 90 23:56:16 GMT From: usc!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!henry@ucsd.edu (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Is an asteroid capture possible/feasible? In article <4638.269df9fb@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> bqsy1@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes: > This may have been asked before, but have there ever been any >studies or projections on the resources needed to do an asteroid capture? I >have wondered what might be required to place a small asteroid in a stable >Earth orbit... The main problem is that even a small asteroid is an enormous mass by the standards of current space propulsion. Chemical fuels just can't do this job at all. You can do it with nuclear pulse propulsion -- that is, using lots of large hydrogen bombs as your energy source -- or with a solar-powered mass-driver mining the asteroid itself for fuel (and taking a long time). Neither of these propulsion systems is off-the-shelf technology at the moment, although both could be made practical in fairly short order if enough money was available. > Have there ever been proposals for projects based on the >availability of an asteroid as source material? In a word, yes. :-) You can get started somewhat earlier by importing relatively modest amounts of asteroidal material rather than having to haul the whole rock into Earth orbit. The problems are lack of solid demand, lack of asteroid-mining technology, and the near-total lack of knowledge about the detailed composition and mechanical properties (e.g., can you just scoop up dust or do you have to drill into solid rock?) of specific asteroids. -- NFS: all the nice semantics of MSDOS, | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology and its performance and security too. | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 90 18:31:36 GMT From: km44+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kimble Charles Marshall) Subject: Re: space weapons >>There's a pretty good chance that conventional firearms >>would work in >>space. Adjusting for gravitational gradients, you could >>hit targets many >>miles away with full muzzle velocity. >>To what extent are conventional lubricants usable in space? >> John Roberts >> roberts@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov yes, but what about the kick such a projectile system? That is after all what makes rockets go in the first place... K.C. Marshall km44@andrew.cmu.edu ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V12 #72 *******************