Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from hogtown.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Sun, 31 Mar 91 02:37:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Sun, 31 Mar 91 02:37:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #335 SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 335 Today's Topics: Re: "Follies" Re: More cost/lb. follies Re: Discovery Project Iridium queries Re: "Follies" NASA Prediction Bulletins, Part 1 Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Mar 91 17:26:30 GMT From: rochester!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!ub!dsinc!unix.cis.pitt.edu!pitt!nss!Paul.Blase@rutgers.edu (Paul Blase) Subject: Re: "Follies" "W> ALS will not achieve an order of magnitude reduction in launch "W> costs. In fact, I will bet money that it ends up MORE expensive "W> than the Shuttle. This program will end up as the Space Shuttle "W> of the 90's: lots of money to contractors few useful results. "W> This program has got to be killed or we will accomplish nothing "W> in the 90's. Why are we building ALS when we could have better "W> launchers for 10% the cost and a third of the time? There was a rather interesting briefing at the Space Expo '91 here in DC yesterday (3/28). I'll try to synopsize it on this echo soon, but some highlights: The design goal for ALS is $300/lb at 25 launches per year The ALS is a Big-Dumb-Booster concept, far simpler than the shuttle. Among other things, the briefing mentioned the ALS engines and compared them to the Shuttle's SSME's. The ALS engines are heavier than the SSME, but this is because the designers traded weight for simplicity and reliability (they admitted to taking a lesson from the Soviets!). As a result, the engines have several times the life expentancy of the SSME. Another concept being explored is that of recovering the engines from the boosters. Not the whole booster, just the engine module (which, after all is the most expensive part). In addition, the ALS program is concentrating on using up-to-date technologies in the materials and avionics of the boosters These include new aluminum-lithium alloys and composite materials for the bodies, and advanced electronics with redundant components. One interesting item is that the ALS will use electro-mechanical actuators instead of hydraulics (more reliable and rugged). A final inovative concept is that the manufacturing facility, the booster integration facility, and the payload integration facility will all be together at the launch site. A major goal of the ALS program is to be able to launch on demand and according to schedule, not whenever a booster happens to be ready. All of the U.S. boosters built now, particularly the Atlas and the Titan derivitives, are based upon ICBMs designed in the 50's and 60's. Even the shuttle was designed using technology of the 1960's and '70's. The ALS, scheduled to be flying around the year 2000 (less than 10 years away, folks) will be the one of the first U.S. launchers designed from scratch as a civilian launcher using modern technology. (BTW, the DoD and NASA are both making extensive efforts to assure that the ALS is kept civilian, e.g. there is absolutely nothing classified about anything having to do with the designs of the system). --- via Silver Xpress V2.26 [NR] -- Paul Blase - via FidoNet node 1:129/104 UUCP: ...!pitt!nss!Paul.Blase INTERNET: Paul.Blase@nss.FIDONET.ORG ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 91 17:48:49 GMT From: rochester!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!ub!dsinc!unix.cis.pitt.edu!pitt!nss!Paul.Blase@rutgers.edu (Paul Blase) Subject: Re: More cost/lb. follies to: bpendlet@oscar.dsd.es.com (Bob Pendleton) BP> Knowing full well that posting into a flame fest is a good way BP> to get burned he still feels this overwhelming urge to post. Oh BP> my. Only way to get a word in edgewise. BP> I'd like to say I agree with some points posted by most BP> everybody. Nick Szabo has pointed out that all our current BP> rockets are right at their technical limits. He's right, they BP> are. He then uses that fact to support his argument that BP> chemical powered rockets cannot become cheap enough to make BP> space travel economically possible. Well, at least not in his BP> life time. BP> Others, Henry especially, have argued that Nick is wrong. BP> They've pointed out the work of Max Hunter and others that BP> indicate that chemical rockets can be made cheap enough to make BP> space travel economically possible in our life times. I happen BP> agree with Henry on this. . . . BP> Reusable, rugged, and low tech rockets should give a low cost BP> per pound to orbit. From what I've read I'm convinced that BP> this approach can work. Check out my previous posting on the ALS. What, I think, Nick and others are doing is confusing state-of-the-art performance with optimal price/lb performance. The best rocket will not give the most economic performance simply because getting the last 10% of performance out of a high-tech engine will cost far more than the first 90%; putting 2 low-tech engines on a booster is cheaper than putting a single high-tech engine with equivelent thrust (allowing for weight differences). In an ICBM, which is where all of our current boosters come from, performance was the design goal and price was secondary. Essentially what we are doing is using Porsche's where we should be using VW's. The ALS is designed to this goal, it may be slightly larger than a Titan for the same payload, but it will be far more reliable, and much cheaper. --- via Silver Xpress V2.26 [NR] -- Paul Blase - via FidoNet node 1:129/104 UUCP: ...!pitt!nss!Paul.Blase INTERNET: Paul.Blase@nss.FIDONET.ORG ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 91 23:35:54 GMT From: sol.ctr.columbia.edu!src.honeywell.com!msi.umn.edu!cs.umn.edu!kksys!wd0gol!newave!john@lll-winken.llnl.gov (John A. Weeks III) Subject: Re: Discovery In article <9103281917.AA14252@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov> roberts@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov (John Roberts) writes: > > From: yee@trident.arc.nasa.gov (Peter E. Yee) > > U.S. Army will collaborate on a series of Army "Be All You Can Be" > > promotion photographs to be used later this year by the service. The > > Army's Golden Knights, a precision parajump team, will fly down > > in front of Pad B from 8,000 feet, landing in the parking lot in front > > of the pad. > Actually, that sounds pretty spectacular. I hope they make it into > television commercials. Also hope nobody lands on the razor wire. I have seen the Golden Knights several times. I have yet to see any of their jumps miss the target by more than 3 feet. They really mean the word "precision". Try to see the Golden Knights if you get a chance, they do a "parachute malfunction" act that is breathtaking. -john- -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ John A. Weeks III (612) 942-6969 john@newave.mn.org NeWave Communications ...uunet!tcnet!wd0gol!newave!john ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 91 07:01:52 GMT From: uokmax!munnari.oz.au!manuel!ccadfa!sserve!csadfa!mkwan@apple.com (Matthew Kwan) Subject: Project Iridium queries Over the past couple of months I've heard a bit about Motorola's Project Iridium. Apparently it involves 77 orbiting satellites. Why 77? Does this ensure an even coverage of the Earth's surface, or a more concentrated coverage of "busy" areas like New York and other big cities? Also, this network sounds like it will cut into a lot of national telecommunications monopolies. Who is going to handle the resulting political problems - Motorola or the US Government? Will the network be regulated by the US Government, or will it be free? Any references to other information would also be greatly appreciated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew Kwan - The man with no .signature ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 91 17:30:35 GMT From: rochester!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!ub!dsinc!unix.cis.pitt.edu!pitt!nss!Paul.Blase@rutgers.edu (Paul Blase) Subject: Re: "Follies" to: dil@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Perry G Ramsey) PG> I like to be hopeful, but hoping that a few hundred families are PG> going to drop everything to go live alone on the moon and pay PG> for it themselves is going a bit far. Have you ever read "Welcome to Moonbase" by Ben Bova? It is a rather extensive scenario for creating an economically viable moonbase. Basically, the moonbase is owned by an international corporation (with the founding countries being majority stockholders). I highly recommend this book for anyone concerned with this topic (for one thing, it answers most of the questions brought up here already). --- via Silver Xpress V2.26 [NR] -- Paul Blase - via FidoNet node 1:129/104 UUCP: ...!pitt!nss!Paul.Blase INTERNET: Paul.Blase@nss.FIDONET.ORG ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 91 03:49:44 GMT From: udecc.engr.udayton.edu!blackbird.afit.af.mil!tkelso@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (TS Kelso) Subject: NASA Prediction Bulletins, Part 1 The most current orbital elements from the NASA Prediction Bulletins are carried on the Celestial BBS, (513) 427-0674, and are updated several times weekly. Documentation and tracking software are also available on this system. As a service to the satellite user community, the most current of these elements are uploaded weekly to sci.space. This week's elements are provided below. The Celestial BBS may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, or 2400 baud using 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity. - Current NASA Prediction Bulletins #828a - Alouette 1 1 00424U 62B-A 1 91 87.23677088 .00000616 00000-0 72251-3 0 3937 2 00424 80.4678 6.0121 0022068 264.2913 95.5733 13.67498438421518 ATS 3 1 03029U 67111 A 91 84.83664587 -.00000076 00000-0 99999-4 0 5167 2 03029 13.5495 18.8141 0020616 228.2239 131.5812 1.00272828 85610 Cosmos 398 1 04966U 71 16 A 91 87.36624618 .00112529 19153-4 57093-3 0 4626 2 04966 51.5224 220.2253 2073263 342.3603 11.4459 11.48978241623657 Starlette 1 07646U 75010 A 91 84.18765549 -.00000011 00000-0 39040-4 0 2001 2 07646 49.8214 129.6907 0205943 39.2672 322.2958 13.82151427814647 LAGEOS 1 08820U 76039 A 91 87.32193512 .00000009 00000-0 20291-1 0 2159 2 08820 109.8386 92.4661 0044371 178.1536 181.9085 6.38664186 92082 GOES 2 1 10061U 77048 A 91 81.83406437 -.00000258 00000-0 99999-4 0 5685 2 10061 8.7256 60.3239 0003974 343.5407 16.4844 1.00263027 51802 IUE 1 10637U 78012 A 91 81.95684994 -.00000181 00000-0 79862-4 0 2190 2 10637 32.7391 114.3506 1412662 0.8255 359.4843 1.00292483 9268 GPS-0001 1 10684U 78020 A 91 86.14944999 .00000004 00000-0 99999-4 0 6113 2 10684 63.9007 80.7687 0128011 200.6174 158.9223 2.00553923 81520 GPS-0002 1 10893U 78 47 A 91 87.14698115 -.00000022 00000-0 99999-4 0 3276 2 10893 64.2163 321.6110 0171643 23.6742 337.1388 2.00534864 94362 GOES 3 1 10953U 78062 A 91 75.18784986 .00000090 00000-0 99999-4 0 533 2 10953 7.5973 63.3168 0003190 104.1918 255.8528 1.00264070 7647 SeaSat 1 1 10967U 78064 A 91 86.22024352 .00003484 00000-0 12293-2 0 4850 2 10967 108.0143 184.5997 0003102 231.8958 128.1989 14.36392014667085 GPS-0003 1 11054U 78093 A 91 81.90630089 -.00000021 00000-0 99999-4 0 3595 2 11054 63.7821 317.9333 0063699 117.5006 243.2015 2.00571830 91274 Nimbus 7 1 11080U 78098 A 91 86.73693432 .00000357 00000-0 35308-3 0 7370 2 11080 99.1750 349.9490 0009613 47.9953 312.2033 13.83526670627243 GPS-0004 1 11141U 78112 A 91 83.52638714 .00000004 00000-0 99999-4 0 1438 2 11141 63.8404 80.7519 0061491 311.2873 48.2041 2.00546529 90002 GPS-0005 1 11690U 80 11 A 91 85.16018338 .00000005 00000-0 99999-4 0 1020 2 11690 64.3323 82.9762 0123376 203.3010 156.1709 2.00552850 95892 GPS-0006 1 11783U 80 32 A 91 87.44957955 -.00000021 00000-0 99999-4 0 3971 2 11783 63.5635 317.2486 0151102 58.4164 303.1362 2.00575558 80024 GOES 5 1 12472U 81049 A 91 84.08197937 .00000132 00000-0 99999-4 0 620 2 12472 4.1664 72.2821 0002962 273.9420 86.2933 1.00246535 35046 Cosmos 1383 1 13301U 82 66 A 91 87.06346128 .00000234 00000-0 26252-3 0 6913 2 13301 82.9298 92.7348 0028907 96.6597 263.7853 13.67896682436484 LandSat 4 1 13367U 82 72 A 91 88.10154894 .00003319 00000-0 74469-3 0 7196 2 13367 98.1263 149.4108 0003687 351.0433 9.0668 14.57196126462790 IRAS 1 13777U 83 4 A 91 86.02437821 .00000362 00000-0 27469-3 0 9128 2 13777 99.0138 283.2803 0012313 329.1255 30.9195 13.98911137 86486 Cosmos 1447 1 13916U 83 21 A 91 85.21628506 .00000312 00000-0 31889-3 0 7869 2 13916 82.9421 163.5484 0039559 72.7894 287.7592 13.74124344401409 TDRS 1 1 13969U 83 26 B 91 86.13954591 .00000126 00000-0 99999-4 0 2911 2 13969 5.1561 63.2518 0003346 311.9954 48.0953 1.00269942 2184 GOES 6 1 14050U 83 41 A 91 84.08072611 .00000115 00000-0 99999-4 0 3926 2 14050 2.9299 75.2925 0019092 201.1886 159.1480 1.00275977 950 OSCAR 10 1 14129U 83 58 B 91 87.13157047 -.00000090 00000-0 99999-4 0 6439 2 14129 25.8083 153.6070 6004385 228.6767 61.5135 2.05883150 30580 GPS-0008 1 14189U 83 72 A 91 83.89174778 .00000003 00000-0 99999-4 0 9043 2 14189 63.5092 79.0657 0144314 224.7843 134.0615 2.00568544 56398 LandSat 5 1 14780U 84 21 A 91 88.13594721 .00000428 00000-0 99999-4 0 5677 2 14780 98.2389 149.4861 0002229 359.6248 0.5098 14.57110952376212 UoSat 2 1 14781U 84 21 B 91 87.59505918 .00005188 00000-0 94170-3 0 9472 2 14781 97.9121 135.3744 0013772 62.2623 298.0072 14.66570353377634 GPS-0009 1 15039U 84 59 A 91 82.56909161 .00000002 00000-0 99999-4 0 1736 2 15039 63.2602 78.2238 0028431 227.2839 132.4876 2.00565697 49644 Cosmos 1574 1 15055U 84 62 A 91 83.76460814 .00000320 00000-0 33238-3 0 373 2 15055 82.9572 215.4515 0026076 263.7182 96.1014 13.73430219338585 GPS-0010 1 15271U 84 97 A 91 84.00992443 -.00000021 00000-0 99999-4 0 171 2 15271 63.0692 316.7698 0112595 331.9116 27.5379 2.00564337 46789 Cosmos 1602 1 15331U 84105 A 91 86.04058038 .00009232 00000-0 12133-2 0 5087 2 15331 82.5332 98.4831 0024140 123.3775 236.9856 14.79927502349898 NOAA 9 1 15427U 84123 A 91 87.20021879 .00001658 00000-0 91076-3 0 7186 2 15427 99.1731 98.7687 0014218 293.9234 66.0445 14.12919510324089 GPS-0011 1 16129U 85 93 A 91 87.21911500 .00000003 00000-0 99999-4 0 7347 2 16129 64.0328 79.2925 0122702 147.9506 212.8119 2.00564791 40051 Mir 1 16609U 86 17 A 91 88.12594994 .00067853 00000-0 67618-3 0 3447 2 16609 51.6071 333.5097 0015537 116.0173 244.2519 15.64886640292620 SPOT 1 1 16613U 86 19 A 91 86.11334519 .00001847 00000-0 88512-3 0 2701 2 16613 98.7031 161.4517 0001635 93.7128 266.4256 14.20052388104084 Cosmos 1766 1 16881U 86 55 A 91 87.69099382 .00009069 00000-0 12083-2 0 3689 2 16881 82.5242 155.6658 0022196 136.1765 224.1232 14.79373734251185 EGP 1 16908U 86 61 A 91 79.36376868 -.00000025 00000-0 99999-4 0 3427 2 16908 50.0101 126.9583 0011374 178.0562 182.0318 12.44393283209241 NOAA 10 1 16969U 86 73 A 91 86.97583158 .00002033 00000-0 90085-3 0 5624 2 16969 98.5727 113.2251 0013806 160.0598 200.1146 14.24017780234998 MOS-1 1 17527U 87 18 A 91 83.10464767 .00000755 00000-0 58738-3 0 7676 2 17527 99.0738 156.6296 0000824 78.8797 281.2461 13.94886759208289 GOES 7 1 17561U 87 22 A 91 85.78858133 -.00000045 00000-0 99999-4 0 7486 2 17561 0.0121 184.9505 0005799 197.9842 336.9736 1.00271905 8402 Kvant-1 1 17845U 87 30 A 91 88.12593937 .00070670 00000-0 70274-3 0 5155 2 17845 51.6060 333.5106 0018226 114.9043 245.3001 15.64864560227356 DMSP B5D2-3 1 18123U 87 53 A 91 88.17718377 .00001898 00000-0 10088-2 0 8887 2 18123 98.8149 279.9667 0013819 294.5231 65.4506 14.14466555194685 RS-10/11 1 18129U 87 54 A 91 87.84980366 .00000097 00000-0 99999-4 0 5670 2 18129 82.9242 118.2301 0013169 54.1551 306.0829 13.72165370188579 Meteor 2-16 1 18312U 87 68 A 91 83.45954500 .00000225 00000-0 19326-3 0 6155 2 18312 82.5514 68.1463 0011585 179.1794 180.9388 13.83749620181749 Meteor 2-17 1 18820U 88 5 A 91 83.62243123 .00000420 00000-0 36624-3 0 4641 2 18820 82.5438 127.5364 0015019 256.8532 103.0952 13.84460246158985 DMSP B5D2-4 1 18822U 88 6 A 91 88.17730476 .00002440 00000-0 11232-2 0 8242 2 18822 98.6072 325.7611 0006702 157.1734 202.9743 14.21900540163310 Glonass 34 1 19163U 88 43 A 91 87.51736566 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 2081 2 19163 64.9161 149.6608 0007156 198.3132 161.7389 2.13102426 22201 Glonass 36 1 19165U 88 43 C 91 87.57424372 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 2000 2 19165 64.8972 149.6520 0004596 326.3785 33.6674 2.13102816 22204 AO-13 1 19216U 88 51 B 91 65.03461838 -.00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 2406 2 19216 56.8208 107.0310 7134717 248.7854 25.7533 2.09700788 20895 OKEAN 1 1 19274U 88 56 A 91 87.54404986 .00005773 00000-0 78595-3 0 759 2 19274 82.5066 254.5317 0019301 272.7553 87.1454 14.78489059146919 Meteor 3-2 1 19336U 88 64 A 91 79.51407238 .00000049 00000-0 10968-3 0 7149 2 19336 82.5407 81.9375 0017539 348.1699 11.9013 13.16915477127322 Glonass 39 1 19503U 88 85 C 91 87.12467280 -.00000018 00000-0 99999-4 0 1241 2 19503 65.4483 29.0113 0004601 202.5931 157.3691 2.13103385 19681 NOAA 11 1 19531U 88 89 A 91 88.21240260 .00002006 00000-0 11146-2 0 4735 2 19531 99.0216 42.4460 0011494 196.6004 163.4793 14.12038892129185 TDRS 2 1 19548U 88 91 B 91 76.99844941 .00000113 00000-0 99999-4 0 2340 2 19548 0.7936 80.3119 0002824 288.6783 351.0985 1.00277359 7668 Glonass 40 1 19749U 89 1 A 91 87.63537953 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 9119 2 19749 64.8647 149.3135 0007260 275.3586 84.6412 2.13101861 17224 Glonass 41 1 19750U 89 1 B 91 87.22422455 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 9644 2 19750 64.8885 149.3576 0007283 256.3964 103.6021 2.13102065 17217 GPS BII-01 1 19802U 89 13 A 91 58.17527061 .00000017 00000-0 99999-4 0 2319 2 19802 55.0455 187.3559 0050904 163.2354 196.8890 2.00558153 14865 Akebono 1 19822U 89 16 A 91 87.64075857 .00035161 00000-0 20168-2 0 9729 2 19822 75.0720 97.7820 4104260 37.9314 344.9503 7.25550075 20244 Meteor 2-18 1 19851U 89 18 A 91 86.27035091 .00000701 00000-0 62028-3 0 4186 2 19851 82.5215 2.8990 0013536 297.1198 62.8595 13.84098645104729 MOP-1 1 19876U 89 20 B 91 75.51745988 .00000024 00000-0 99999-4 0 1828 2 19876 0.3174 51.0207 0001591 304.5416 4.4358 1.00271682 3398 TDRS 3 1 19883U 89 21 B 91 74.63397740 -.00000237 00000-0 99999-4 0 2332 2 19883 0.8223 79.6338 0003135 292.2952 348.0983 1.00264151 77611 GPS BII-02 1 20061U 89 44 A 91 58.00437706 -.00000034 00000-0 99999-4 0 2332 2 20061 54.8640 5.4895 0089842 183.4176 176.5173 2.00566400 12602 Nadezhda 1 1 20103U 89 50 A 91 87.03399046 .00000441 00000-0 45831-3 0 3129 2 20103 82.9576 75.7689 0037562 330.9419 28.9642 13.73667931 86684 GPS BII-03 1 20185U 89 64 A 91 57.34599602 .00000016 00000-0 99999-4 0 1766 2 20185 54.8906 188.1900 0021289 164.8064 195.2144 2.00568043 11161 GPS BII-04 1 20302U 89 85 A 91 41.91577973 -.00000024 00000-0 99999-4 0 1785 2 20302 54.4598 307.3315 0032510 329.9999 29.8633 2.00556091 9656 Meteor 3-3 1 20305U 89 86 A 91 83.78492777 .00000043 00000-0 99999-4 0 3274 2 20305 82.5503 20.0872 0016660 355.5322 4.5673 13.15942710 67852 COBE 1 20322U 89 89 A 91 87.06371303 .00000756 00000-0 50921-3 0 2622 2 20322 99.0230 99.6997 0008684 307.3650 52.6725 14.03027467 69290 Kvant-2 1 20335U 89 93 A 91 88.06208057 .00070558 00000-0 70274-3 0 6159 2 20335 51.5981 333.8406 0015857 111.0311 249.1593 15.64877492 76273 -- Dr TS Kelso Assistant Professor of Space Operations tkelso@blackbird.afit.af.mil Air Force Institute of Technology ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #335 *******************