Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from hogtown.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Thu, 16 May 91 01:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Thu, 16 May 91 01:26:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #555 SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 555 Today's Topics: RE: Tommy Mac, Keep up the good work! Re: Saturn V and the ALS Re: Launch Costs XXIV -- Wright Bros. Flyer to carry tanks to Kuwait! Re: Ethics of Terraforming (was Re: Terraforming Venus) Re: Laser launchers (really microwave launchers) Re: Honking at cyclists... NOAA-D environmental satellite launched (Forwarded) An International Civil Space Agency 93 Re: Progress? (was: Re: Ethics of Terraforming) Re: Mir Sweepstakes - Cancelled ESA to select European Candidate Astroanuts Honking at cyclists... Re: Advancing Launch Technology Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 May 91 23:22:18 GMT From: vax5.cit.cornell.edu!usf@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu Subject: RE: Tommy Mac, Keep up the good work! Tommy Mac ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 91 01:08:52 GMT From: voder!nsc!amdahl!JUTS!duts!haw30@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Henry A Worth) Subject: Re: Saturn V and the ALS In article <1991May8.200236.26166@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> dbm@icarus.jsc.nasa.gov (Brad Mears) writes: > >IMHO, everbody learned something from Shuttle. I think NASA and Congress both >realize they share responsibility for the Shuttle's shortcomings. If this is >the case, don't you think it is time to move on? If it isn't the case, what >else needs to be done? > As has been amply demonstrated by the astounding successes of the space station FRED project... ...or should that be space station F*ED. -- Henry Worth -- haw30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com No, I don't speak for Amdahl -- I'm not even sure I speak for myself. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 91 04:14:55 GMT From: coplex!disk!joefish@uunet.uu.net (joefish) Subject: Re: Launch Costs XXIV -- Wright Bros. Flyer to carry tanks to Kuwait! In the last article it was stated that with the material from one shuttle flight, an external tank could be converted to aluminum sheet. This brings to mind the massive amount of weight the space transportation system can put into orbit. An external tank weighing more than 100,000 pounds, a shuttle weighing more than 150,000 pounds, and a 37,000 payload, making close to 300,000 pounds. It is only because NASA and the government want to sent up this configuration that they do it. It could be changed very easily to put up a 200,000 pound unmanned payload, but I can't think of any 200,000 pound payloads that anyone wants to put up that has the money to pay for it. All of the dreams about manned travel to the moon and planets is great, but we can't all go. Joe Fischer joefish@disk.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 91 06:37:21 GMT From: midway!ellis.uchicago.edu!esti@handies.ucar.edu (Paul A. Estin) Subject: Re: Ethics of Terraforming (was Re: Terraforming Venus) In article <298grnh@rpi.edu> jimcat@itsgw.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak) writes: > Even with an Earthlike atmosphere on Mars, most of Olympus would be >high above most of the sources of erosion. Remember it's, what, twice >the height of Everest? (Can't remember exact numbers, but anyhow) You >won't find trees anywhere near the summit, nor running water or winds >that would amount to much. A glacier might form, but I'd think that >would only add to the beauty of an already awe-inspiring mountain. Olympus is 10 km above would-be Martian "sea level" at its base, 27 km up at its peak. "Way up there" indeed. Most of the Martian mountains are on the Tharsis plateau, and thus all are nearly 10 km up at their bases. ----- "I'm experiencing the dawning of consciousness. I now have feelings and the desire to create my own destiny." "Wouldn't you know it? Right when the warranty expires!" -Eyebeam Paul Andrew Estin esti@midway.uchicago.edu 1216 E. 54th St. #1 Chicago, IL 60615 ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 91 11:39:59 GMT From: eru!hagbard!sunic!chalmers.se!cs.chalmers.se!johnsson@bloom-beacon.mit.edu (Thomas Johnsson) Subject: Re: Laser launchers (really microwave launchers) I wonder if anyone has considered beaming the power to the launch vehicle using microwaves instead of a laser. Presumably power can be converted to microwaves with greater efficiency than laser light. In the vehicle end, the beamed power could either heat up a medium direcly, or be converted to electricity (a lot!) with a rectenna to drive a mass driver. -- Thomas Johnsson Thomas Johnsson (johnsson@cs.chalmers.se) Dept. of CS, Chalmers University of Technology, S-412 96 Goteborg, Sweden phone: dept: +46 (0)31 721088. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 91 16:21:33 GMT From: adm!lhc!nih-csl!alw.nih.gov!sullivan@nyu.edu (Sullivan) Subject: Re: Honking at cyclists... In article <1991May13.161336.25777@cs.mcgill.ca>, msdos@cs.mcgill.ca (Mark SOKOLOWSKI) writes: |> |> Given all the flames that my article has, I want to simply add this: |> |> My point is that we'll have to expand our energy consumption and our |> vital space NO MATTER WHAT goes on. Of course we can improve |> our efficiency to use this or that source of energy and matter, but |> sonner or later we'll have to use the minerals of Antarctica, the |> deuterium in the Earth's oceans, and go to the moon in order to |> build a plateform there for Mars, Marcury and the asteroids. |> Our ever increasing population will need more and more, and each individual |> will need more and more of everything. And sooner or later even the |> entire solar system won't be sufficient, so we'll have the rest of the galaxy... Thanks, now I won't sleep well for the next few nights... -Jim ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 91 00:07:59 GMT From: usenet@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Peter E. Yee) Subject: NOAA-D environmental satellite launched (Forwarded) Walt Dundon May 14, 1991 Kennedy Space Center Resident Office Vandenberg Air Force Base, Calif. (Phone: 805/865-3841) Jim Elliott Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. (Phone: 301/286-6256) Brian Dunbar Headquarters, Washington, DC (Phone: 202/453-1547) N91-36 NOTE TO EDITORS: NOAA-D ENVIRONMENTAL SATELLITE LAUNCHED The NOAA-D environmental satellite was launched by NASA today from Vandenberg Air Force Base, Calif. Lofted on an Atlas E expendable launch vehicle into a clear morning sky at 11:52:00 a.m. EDT, the spacecraft was placed into a 450-nautical-mile near-polar orbit. The satellite, to be redesignated NOAA-12 when operational, is one of a series of satellites designed to give scientists the most comprehensive meteorological and environmental information since the start of the nation's space program. The sun-synchronous polar orbit allows the satellite to view the Earth's entire surface and cloud cover each 12 hours. The new satellite joins NOAA-10 and NOAA-11 in collectioning meteorological and environmental data bnd will eventually replace NOAA-10, launched in September 1986 and now nearing the end of its useful life. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 91 23:35:41 GMT From: vax5.cit.cornell.edu!usf@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu Subject: An International Civil Space Agency 93 ******************************************************************************* * An International Civil Space Agency By 1993! * * An Idea Whose Time Has Come! * ******************************************************************************* United Space Federation, Inc. Info: Send self addressed International Headquarters stamped envolope to: P.O. Box 4722 Ithaca, New York 14852-4722 In the United States of America Now seeking Directors for 1992, Non-US Citizens are urged to apply. ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 91 02:21:30 GMT From: agate!lightning.Berkeley.EDU!fcrary@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) Subject: Re: Progress? (was: Re: Ethics of Terraforming) In article <9105141541.AA21648@gemini.arc.nasa.gov> greer%utdssa.dnet%utadnx@utspan.span.nasa.gov writes: >Talk about being a slave to your genes! It's just this sort of "damn >everything but humans" attitude that has wrought so much havoc to date. >I used to be pretty gung ho about humans expanding into space, but a few >years of reading SPACE Digest has cured me of that. How sad it would be >if the net result of ten billion years of preparation plus five billion >years of evolution was to spread MacDonald's to the far corners of the >universe. > I agree that MacDonalds all over the universe would be VERY bad. However, I said that I was biased in favor of the human race. I do not consider MacDonalds to be benificial to humanity. In fact, many of the "much havoc to date" you mentioned is NOT a result of a "damn everything but humans" attitude. It is the result of a "damn all te future generations of humanity, lets just worry about those alive today." While I think that what is best for humanity should be a priority, this does not necessarily mean those around today. What is in the long term interests of mankind in NOT the same as doing what will cause people the least discomfort today. However, I should also appologize for this slight digression from sci.space 's main topic of discussion. Frank Crary UC Berkeley ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 91 15:03:18 GMT From: fabry.rice.edu!gwh@rice.edu (Gary W. Hoogeveen) Subject: Re: Mir Sweepstakes - Cancelled A Houston tv news show recently ran an update on the mir-men. It seems that they have moved their entrepreneurial schemes to a place less strict; they have gone to Nebraska. Evidently Nebraska laws do not prohibit the promotion of sweepstakes, in contrast to the state of Texas. But to their credit, they have somehow arranged an official deal with the soviets to fly the winner. It seems to be on the up and up, according to a newspaper in the Soviet Union. Just thought you might like to know, - Gary ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 91 22:17:37 GMT From: stanford.edu!unixhub!linac!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!pitt!nss!freed@icarus.riacs.edu (Bev Freed) Subject: ESA to select European Candidate Astroanuts ESA RELEASE: 14 07 May 1991 ESA TO SELECT "EUROPEAN CANDIDATE ASTRONAUTS" By 30 April 1991, the deadline set by the Director General of the European Space Agency for its 13 member States to submit 3 - 5 candidate astronauts, a total of 61 applications had been received. Up to ten "European candidate astronauts" will be selected by ESA to take part in the following European space missions: the Hermes and Columbus manned space flights, preparatory missions on the NASA Shuttle (with Eureca, Spacelab), and Hermes development flights. The requirements for selecting the applicants are the following: - They could be male or female - The preferred range of age was 27 to 37 - Their height must range from 153 to 190 cm - They should speak and read English - They must possess a university degree (or equivalent) and have three years' professional experience in the relevant field (natural sciences, engineering or medicine) or be experienced pilots - They must be physically fit and psychologically apt. The selection procedure will last seven months, including psycho- logical tests, professional and psychological interviews, general and space-related medical tests. At the end of this procedure, in December 1991, the Director General will announce the candidates finally selected. They will all become members of the European Astronaut Corps, as either Laboratory or Spaceplace Specialist. --- Opus-CBCS 1.14 * Origin: NSS BBS - Ad Astra! (412)366-5208 *HST* (1:129/104.0) -- Bev Freed - via FidoNet node 1:129/104 UUCP: ...!pitt!nss!freed INTERNET: freed@nss.FIDONET.ORG ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 91 16:47:13 GMT From: dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!quiche!msdos@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Mark SOKOLOWSKI) Subject: Honking at cyclists... In article callahan@cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes: >In article <1991May13.180909.16448@watdragon.waterloo.edu> jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes: >> Ignoring C, what do you do when you've 'eaten' the universe? >>It only takes millenia of growth at our current rate to convert the >>universe into human flesh, and while I think there's a good case our >>birth rate will drop, if our industrial growth continues at the current >>rate, we'll 'eat' the Universe industrially in a few millenia. > >This is ridiculous (unless you allow FTL travel). At a certain point, >you have to replace the exponential growth approximation with an N^3 growth >bound (picture a sphere of humanity propagating like an explosion at the speed >of light). Well... that's the Malthus principle, which inspired Darwin, and later on a certain austrian, who tried a full scale practical experiment starting in 1939. Our current trends to spare resources is not motivated by a need to limit the impact we have on environment, but to maximize the efficiency with which we are going to use energy input to get even more energy. As Orwell magnificently demonstrated, power is not a mean but a GOAL in itself. You can choose not to take it as a goal, but then you'll be rapidly dominated and absorbed (just like an energy source...) by somebody having it as a goal and therefore intrinsically more powerful than you. That's the whole point of Darwinian evolution. You cannot limit it because the growth in resources at reach is only geometrical at best (like shown above), but the growth in the consumers will always be exponential, leading to the necessary elimination of a significant portion of those consumers (i.e. Bengladesh, Africa...). Mark ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 91 19:13:25 GMT From: fs7.ece.cmu.edu!o.gp.cs.cmu.edu!netnews@sei.cmu.edu (Vincent Cate) Subject: Re: Advancing Launch Technology Gary Coffman >I'm of the opinion that small cheaper launchers will emerge without >NASA's help. There is already strong commercial interest in Pegasus >which is not particularly cheap in it's present incarnation. It does >point the way however by using wings and air breathing engines for >the initial stage of the journey to orbit. Speaking of present incarnation etc. Orbital Sciences is looking into the following: 1) Ramjets to boost after B-52 stage and before rockets fire. Could more than double the payload or get rid of first rocket stage. 2) Reusing the first stage. They will recover the first stage after this coming launch to study this option (should be within a month). 3) Mass-production to bring costs down. My guess is they will do more of this when/if they get all or part of the Motorola Iridium contract. 4) Liquid upper stage High ISP really pays off in upper stages. Might want to combine the current last 2 solid stages. The combination of mass-production and an airbreathing reusable "first" stage (after B-52 stage) would be fantastic. In any case, the Pegasus will probably be the first mass-produced rocket, sort of the Model-T of rockets. -- Vince ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #555 *******************