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Date: Sat, 15 Jun 91 01:28:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #646

SPACE Digest                                     Volume 13 : Issue 646

Today's Topics:
		  Re: Extra Terrestrial Intelligence
	  Re: Fred vs. Exploration: head-to-head competition
Re: Pregnancy in space (was Re: Rational next station design process)
	     Re: Moonbase movie *Plymouth* to air Sunday?
			SPACE Digest V13 #570
	     Re: Moonbase movie *Plymouth* to air Sunday?
			    Re: lifeboats
Re: USF: Brought to you by the same people who brought you the Moon Treaty?

Administrivia:

    Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 May 91 01:24:45 GMT
From: usc!wuarchive!rex!rouge!dlbres10@ucsd.edu  (Fraering Philip)
Subject: Re: Extra Terrestrial Intelligence

In article <1991May27.190658.18186@csun.edu> swalton@corona.csun.edu (Stephen Walton) writes:

\...a nearby supernova.  If we learned anything from SN 1987A, we learned
/that there is essentially no outward warning that a star is about to
\blow.  Besides, unless your putative colony ships take terraforming
/...

Well, the combination of proximity given by interstellar travel and
more advanced science will probably give the colony plenty of warning
if the star is indeed about to blow up.

--
Phil Fraering || Usenet (?):dlbres10@pc.usl.edu || YellNet: 318/365-5418

Standard disclaimer, whatever a disclaimer is, applies.

''It hardly mattered now; it was, in fact, a fine and enviable
madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is
beyond the reach of a strong left arm.`` - Larry Niven and Jerry
Pournelle, _The Mote in God's Eye_

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 91 23:22:47 GMT
From: convex!schumach@uunet.uu.net  (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: Fred vs. Exploration: head-to-head competition

The study of comets, their fragments, and earth-crossing meteoroids
can be justified in the interest of national security, at the very 
least. I don't see any private groups, for-profit or not, rushing
out to do this.

How much makeup will Mr. Crary's wife be buying if the next
Tunguska event occurs over their house?

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 91 21:55:53 GMT
From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!bridge2!jarthur!nntp-server.caltech.edu!hamlet.caltech.edu!carl@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Lydick, Carl)
Subject: Re: Pregnancy in space (was Re: Rational next station design process)

In article <1991May28.163205.12863@linus.mitre.org>, sokay@cyclone.mitre.org
(S. J. Okay) writes...
>Just how much of a problem is this? I would think that given the the fetus is already 
>floating weightless inthe amniotic sac during its development, the absence of 
>gravity wouldn't be that much of a problem (but then, I'm no MD either).
>Just curious, as I've seen this brought up here enough time to fire 
>my curiosity.

The fetus is NOT floating "weightless".  It is floating at neutral buoyancy. 
The two are VASTLY different.  As an analogy, consider a cannister with a
ball-bearing in it.  Arrange the weight of the cannister so that it has neutral
buoyancy in water.  Then in neutral buoyancy, the ball bearing will always be
at the bottom of the cannister.  In a weightless environment, the ball bearing
has no tendency to be at the bottom of the cannister.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick	HEPnet/NSI: SOL1::CARL	Internet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 91 18:08:04 GMT
From: ubc-cs!alberta!cpsc.ucalgary.ca!fsa!hermann@beaver.cs.washington.edu  (hermann)
Subject: Re: Moonbase movie *Plymouth* to air Sunday?

more spoilers follow


More technical problems:

- an airlock door in the moonrover garage that consisted mostly of glass.
There is no need to put glass in an airlock door, and it complicates the
engineering enormously. Put a viewport in the bulkhead next to it.

- an emergency manual override in a pressure door that the kids had to
operate through a keypad next to the door (which of course failed for some
reason). A _manual_ override should be just that, manual. Preferably simple
and easy enough to use that you can get the door open quickly, even in
darkness with the wind of decompression blowing around you.

At least they knew enough to have the airlock doors opening _inwards_, so
that air pressure holds them shut. And if for some stupid reason someone has
left it open, it will _automagically_ swing shut in the event of a blowout. 

|  Mike Hermann  | hermann@cpsc.ucalgary.ca
_Organized_ religion is like organized crime: it preys on people's weakness,
generates huge profits, and is nearly impossible to eradicate.

------------------------------

ReSent-Message-ID: <Added.AcF1Oe_00UkTMlh08W@andrew.cmu.edu>
Resent-Date:  Wed, 29 May 91 16:45:13 EDT
Resent-From: tom <18084TM@msu.edu>
Resent-To: space+@andrew.cmu.edu
Date:         Fri, 24 May 91 01:55:04 EDT
Reply-To: space+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@msu.edu
From: space-request+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU%CARNEGIE.BITNET@msu.edu
Subject:      SPACE Digest V13 #570
Comments: To: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU
To: david polito <15432DJP@MSU.BITNET>, Tom McWilliams <18084TM@MSU.BITNET>

Re: galileo diverted to 'stroids

>> [ Galileo could be retargeted to view "thousands" of astroids.]

>In fact, it could not be. It could only reasonably do one or two
>flyby's an orbit. Each orbit would be ~ 1 or 2 years long. With a
>design life of about ten years, Galileo could only flyby at most
>a dozen.

Fine, dozens (not thousands, despite the fact that JPL's 'lifetimes' have a
record of being underestimates) instead of TWO.  I still think it's a good
idea.

>>MY conclusion;  Blow Jupiter 'till we know what's at the 'stroids;  I think
>>at this point in time, science for it's own sake should take a back seat to
>>science for maximization of resources.
>>
>Even if the resources of the astroids are EVERYTHING you claim they could be,
>the US will not even be going back to the Moon for over 10 years. We will
>not be mining the astroids for several years more. This has nothing to do
>with the resources there, but rather the pace of our current space planning
>and funding process. Galileo would not change this. Since we will not be
>using them for years, why scrub Galileo to rush back asteroid data?

You have missed the point, in a previous post, that the funding process (as
well as the state of space activity) would be drastically changed by the
discovery of even small amounts of resources.  This would include accelerating
the process of the exploration of other objects (such as the apollo 'stroids).
So please don't use the 'funding process' or the 'state of space activity' as
an argument against the possibility of finding resources.

Look folks.  Maybe I'm nearsighted, but no matter how much you argue that
Galileo is fine (even if it's not) and that the things learned at Jupiter
will be great, you won't convince me that they will be more importatnt than
the asteroid work it COULD do.

It's an opinion, afterall, and it's based on the assumption that resources are
more importatnt than 'raw science'.  Would anyone like to argue that my point
follows if you accept the assumption?  Or the assumption itself?  Otherwise,
we're just treading water.

Tommy Mac
Acknowledge-To: <18084TM@MSU>

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 91 21:23:43 GMT
From: uokmax!jabishop@apple.com  (Jonathan A Bishop)
Subject: Re: Moonbase movie *Plymouth* to air Sunday?

edotto@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Ed Otto) writes:

>koreth@twitterpater.Eng.Sun.COM (Steven Grimm) writes:

>>My housemate pointed out that the whole sequence inside the colony where people
>>were scurrying for the radiation shelters was silly.  The whole colony, or at
>>least all the living areas, would have to be shielded; otherwise, wouldn't all
>>those pretty plants have to be ripped out and replaced after every severe
>>solar flare?

>Actually, not.  All of those plants were in the greenhouse which was
>probably buried - I saw no windows in the several shots of it they had.
>AND, the shelters were set up for people; the greenhouse was set up for plants.

     This was my main complaint, too.  If the plants need less shielding than
the people, fine.  But, if the greenhouse is sufficiently shielded, why not
just have everyone meet there?  It's a central location, and it would be easier
to take a headcount.

     Despite these possible errors, I'll watch any show featuring Pete
Conrad.

--------
jabishop@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu

"I'm with you, LEM, though it's a shame that it had to be you.
 The mother ship is just a blip from your train made for two.
 I'm with you, boys, so please employ just a little extra care.
 It's on my mind, I'm left behind when I should have been there."
                      --Jethro Tull, "For Michael Collins, Jeffrey, and Me"

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 91 23:35:02 GMT
From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!linus!linus!cyclone!sokay@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (S. J. Okay)
Subject: Re: lifeboats

In article <42949@fmsrl7.UUCP> wreck@fmsrl7.UUCP (Ron Carter) writes:

>Only for a ballistic capsule a la Soyuz, which gives a rather
>rough ride on the way down; peak G's are very high.
>
>Apollo was a lifting capsule design (had to be in order to hold
>itself in the atmosphere while moving > 18000 MPH).  In order
>to direct the lift in the proper direction, it is necessary to
>have active attitude control.  A lifting capsule can hold itself
>high in the atmosphere and brake more slowly, giving a much
>nicer ride down.

Good point...I'd forgotten about this, until you brought it up 
of course, at which point I recalled having once seen a 
picture showing the reentry manuever sequence for a typical
Apollo flight.

>I very much doubt that making a thruster system which can be
>stored reliably for > 1 yr before use is a problem for US
>space technology.  We have proven systems on the Pioneers
>and Voyagers which have been running for over a decade.

I'd tend to agree with this. Its obvious we know enough to 
keep small manuevering thrusters operable/reliable for many
years.

---Steve

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 91 04:18:43 GMT
From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!rex!rouge!pc.usl.edu!dlbres10@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Phil Fraering)
Subject: Re: USF: Brought to you by the same people who brought you the Moon Treaty?

--text follows this line--

[Wow. Noone ever called me a Nazi/Communist before. Since there isn't a
disclaimer on these posts, can I sue Cornell? :-) << evil grin ]

[Actually, if there is a person out there named Fraering Philip,
and he's not as nice as me, Philip Fraering, you and Cornell may
have a problem. But since you directed your attact to the "Fraering
Philip" entity that the posting software attributes my posts to in
the header (which also means you didn't read all the post, otherwise
you would have known otherwise from my signature), you'll probably
get off lighter than you deserve.]

In article <1991May29.173031.5103@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> usf@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:

Rick Dobson>It sounds like to me Mr. Fraering Philip is either a
Rick Dobson>Dictator type a Communist, or a Nazi.  He takes pride in
Rick Dobson>the fact that the effort to make the Moon and Mars the
Rick Dobson>domain of all mankind (All the peoples of the world)
Rick Dobson>which no single nation could hold claim too was
Rick Dobson>undermined by this L-5 group. If this is what L-5
Rick Dobson>represents I take back any thing good I ever said about
Rick Dobson>it.

1. Obviously you do not know what the "Moon Treaty" would have
done.  Said treaty would have made all resource activity in
space dependent on approval of an international commision made
up of representatives from all U.N. member nations. In short,
it would have allowed any one nation to have veto power over
space resource utilization. In short, no nation or group of
nations or citizens of these nations would have been allowed
to use any resources without the consent of all nations in the
world.  You spoke negatively of me as a communist or nazi
(which I am not).  I will assume that you believe that
communism is bad, I believe you would also find bad a treaty
which would have given every communist and fascist state from
Cuba, Chile and South Africa to Cambodia and the provisional
Tamil state (if they get U.N. representation in the near
future. In case you didn't know, they are the #1 suspects in
having killed Rajiv Gandhi). Since most of these dictatorships
are in some sense "hydraulic tyrranies" they rely on control
of resources in order to stay in power. They are unlikely to
allow happen a venture which would increace the number of
resources running around and undermine their power, and giving
any one of them veto rights in any such venture will insure
that it will never happen.

Which basically means that space exploration and settlement in
any large scale would not happen, because they are highly
dependent on resource use.

The moon treaty would have allowed any single nation to shut
down space industrialization and colonization, until at least
someone gets disgusted and breaks the treaty.


Rick Dobson>Further more Mr. Philip says the NSS should continue these
Rick Dobson>same activities, If I were NSS I wouldn't get near Mr. Philip
Rick Dobson>with a ten foot pole.  Real space buffs who want to see real
Rick Dobson>progress in the advancement of space exploratory and
Rick Dobson>developement should stear clear of negitive and destructive
Rick Dobson>people like Mr. Fraering Philip.  If people like Mr.  Philip
Rick Dobson>have their way only one race and class of people will ever
Rick Dobson>have the opportunity to be part of a space faring
Rick Dobson>civilization.

[But you aren't NSS. NSS is a diverse group working towards a common
goal. Unlike apparently USF, NSS isn't any one person.]

I never said anything of the sort regarding race and class. I
would like to see all races and classes in space. First of
all, class: in case you hadn't noticed, more scientists
originate in working class backgrounds than in the upper
classes, who probably don't care so much for science and
exploration, otherwise they'd study something other than law
and medecine in college. In order to carry out space exploration,
all classes of people will be needed.

As for race, the best agriculturist in this part of the nation
was black. I suspect that any self-sufficient ecologies set up
in space will probably use material he research (among all the
other materials). Heck, I am fairly sure that Tuskeegee is
under contract with NASA to do CELSS research. The work of
designing the next great steps in space will be made using
physics pioneered by Europeans, number systems developed by
Arabs, industries with their roots in China, and the computer
it is done on will be built by a Canadian corporation using
Japanese memory in combination with American processors, and
(conjectoral) programmed by people of all backgrounds:
hindustani, african, european, asian, american indian, maybe
even scandiknave-ians. (UFF DA!)

I am not only not racist, I believe the racists are doomed to
fail.  Part of the reason the Germans lost WWII was because of
all the talented people in their own country who they killed
or exiled in the name of racial purity.


Rick Dobson>On the other hand an organized international civil
Rick Dobson>space agency wwould insure that all the peoples and
Rick Dobson>nations of the world community would have a chance and
Rick Dobson>opprotunity to participate in a future space faring
Rick Dobson>civilization.  If you want to know the truth about the
Rick Dobson>USFs present activities, write to us and we will send
Rick Dobson>you the facts about the USF in stead of the one side
Rick Dobson>comments by people like Mr.  Fraering Philip.  I
Rick Dobson>wounder how much Mr. Philip was paid by Planetary
Rick Dobson>Society to promote them as a prospect for an
Rick Dobson>international space organization??! 

Heck, I want to see all peoples, "races", and cultures (except
perhaps the ones with caste systems) in space. I outlined before
that any attempt to try to do it seriously without diversity
won't be as successful as one that will. I just don't think
that giving every petty fascist on the planet veto power on
space activity is the way to go about achieving this, and
that a separate "International Space Agency" isn't needed.

Currently the space program takes up very little of the
government's budget, and there is vast room for
improvement wrt the efficiency and cost effectiveness
of our current efforts. Given cheaper launch and access
to extraterrestrial materials, our efforts could be
millions or billions of times more effective than they
are now, without an increace in funding. The problems
facing us aren't resource limits, but limits to
people's talents in the current system.

And with regard to the Planetary Society: I wasn't paid by them,
I don't belong to them, and I have problems with some of the 
Society's ideas, such as an overemphasis on Mars as a goal...

I just mentioned them as an example of international cooperation
in space now taking place without any help from a dedicated
"international civil space agency." The ISU is another example.

The mere fact that cooperative undertakings between
groups in the U.S. and the Soviet Union, countries
which are usually bitter rivals, is happening
spontaneously and at a rapid rate, is hopeful.  And the
groups that are doing so are doing _research_ and not
studying ways to centralize everyone's space programs
into a single whole.

Phil Fraering || Usenet (?):dlbres10@pc.usl.edu || YellNet: 318/365-5418
Standard disclaimer, whatever a disclaimer is, applies.
''It hardly mattered now; it was, in fact, a fine and enviable
madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is
beyond the reach of a strong left arm.`` - Larry Niven and Jerry
Pournelle, _The Mote in God's Eye_ 
-- 
Phil Fraering || Usenet (?):dlbres10@pc.usl.edu || YellNet: 318/365-5418
Standard disclaimer, whatever a disclaimer is, applies.
''It hardly mattered now; it was, in fact, a fine and enviable
madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V13 #646
*******************