Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from hogtown.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Thu, 4 Jul 91 05:17:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Thu, 4 Jul 91 05:17:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #779 SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 779 Today's Topics: Re: On the Non-Anticipation of Automated Spacecraft Re: Mining El Dorado Re: Excavating (minig) gold in the space by NASA. Jonathan's Space Report, Jun 17 Asteroid Mining Re: Access to Space To fermat!r (Rich Schroeppel), failed message, Virgo SuperCluster Re: Hermes (was Re: (none)) Re: Excavating (minig) gold in the space by NASA. Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jun 91 12:56:04 GMT From: agate!bionet!uwm.edu!rpi!usc!hela!aws@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Allen W. Sherzer) Subject: Re: On the Non-Anticipation of Automated Spacecraft In article <99965@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV> loren@tristan.llnl.gov (Loren Petrich) writes: >The only maintenance problem that >remains for most satellites is the question of maneuvering propellant. That is because they use ultra-reliable (and ultra-expensive) parts and tests. With a reasonable space based infrastructure repair will be a very practical proposition. This will mean that satellites can use less reliable parts which will reduce costs. From there it will be a small step to performing satellite integration in orbit which will greatly simplify designs and cut costs even more. None of this is possible now (or in the forseeable future) without humans on site. >Even the spacecraft >that carry astronauts are heavily automated; for most of the flight in >every mission I know of, the astronauts are simply passengers. To an almost equal extent the same could be said of a modern airliner. As one who has worked in cockpit automation I woldn't want to see airline pilots eliminated. >I get the impression that astronauts' control over the motion of a >spacecraft has consisted mostly of reorienting it and small delta-vee >maneuvers like docking; and even those sorts of maneuvers are fed >through a control system. The actuation of any control goes through a control system. However I doubt very much if any of these systems have the ability to override the pilot. >This level of automation has been necessary >because one needs very precise delta-vees and directions to get to >where one wants to go, though fortunately, the necessary maneuvers are >rather straightforward to work out by computer. This is not entirely true. During Gemini the crews where doing major orbital changes manually. The computers did tell them some of the actions needed but there was also some 'seat of the pants' flying. A major goal of Gemini was to demonstrate the ability to do orbital redndevous with only some computer help. Allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Allen W. Sherzer | DETROIT: Where the weak are killed and eaten. | | aws@iti.org | | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 91 15:05:59 GMT From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.arc.nasa.gov!skipper!shafer@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Mary Shafer) Subject: Re: Mining El Dorado Is your subject line prophetic? The Spanish never found El Dorado. They looked and they died looking, but they never found it because it didn't exist. It's important, when you hear stories of the glittering treasures of a New World, to be sure that the stories are accurate. It appears that the Seven Cities of Cibola, filled with gold and silver and gems for the taking, were actually the pueblos and cliff houses of our desert southwest, with the only significant mineral content being the silica in the adobe that they were made from. -- Mary Shafer shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov ames!skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov!shafer NASA Ames Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA Of course I don't speak for NASA "Turn to kill, not to engage." CDR Willie Driscoll ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 91 15:43:10 GMT From: sgi!shinobu!odin!sgihub!zola!horus.esd.sgi.com!thant@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Thant Tessman) Subject: Re: Excavating (minig) gold in the space by NASA. In article <15390@hydra.Helsinki.FI>, wikla@cs.Helsinki.FI (Arto Wikla) writes: > Remember what happened to the economy of Spain after > they had found the gold of America! > (There was a gold-inflation, which ruined the economy and finally > was the end of super-power Spain.) If I remember correctly, it wasn't the gold alone that destroyed their economy, it was the fact that they didn't allow any gold to be exported. > Arto Wikla, Helsinki, Finland thant ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 91 21:14:28 GMT From: agate!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!freedom!xanth!mcdowell@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Jonathan McDowell) Subject: Jonathan's Space Report, Jun 17 Jonathan's Space Report Jun 20 1991 (no.77) ---------------------------------------------------- Kosmos-2150 was launched on Jun 11 by Kosmos R-14 from Plesetsk. It is a military communications satellite in low orbit. The long duration spy satellite Kosmos-2113 reentered on Jun 11 after 172 days in orbit. This is a bit surprising as recent members of its class had showed lives about 8 months long, so I was expecting it to stay in orbit until August. Anatoliy Artsebarksiy and Sergey Krikalyov continue in orbit aboard the Mir/Kvant/Kvant-2/Kristall/Soyuz TM-12/Progress M-8 complex. ___________________________________ |Current STS status: | |Orbiters | | | |OV-102 Columbia Kelly AFB,TX | |OV-103 Discovery OPF Bay 1 | |OV-104 Atlantis VAB Bay 1 | |OV-105 Endeavour VAB Bay 2 | | | |ML/ET/SRB stacks | | | |ML1/STS-43/ET/OV-104 VAB Bay 1 | |ML2 | |ML3 VAB Bay 3 | ----------------------------------- New objects in orbit 1991 May May 1 1975-52D to DM? Delta 111 debris, 105 objects 1100x1400x99.8 Delta 111 explosion, orbit is typical May 1 1991-31B IBSS-SPAS 2 satellite 245x256x57.0 Retrieved May 2 by OV-103 Discovery May 2 1991-31D USAF CRO-C satellite 243x261x57.0 Reentered May 14 May 2 1991-31E USAF CRO-B satellite 241x262x57.0 Reentered May 12 May 3 1991-31F USAF CRO-A satelllite 250x269x57.0 Reentered May 13 May 6 1991-31C USA-70 satellite 252x267x57.0 Classified May 12? 1990-104K to R 7 PVO radar targets 500x525x82.5 Deployed from Kosmos-2106 May 14 1991-032A NOAA 12 satellite 812x829x98.7 NOAA weather satellite May 14 1991-032B,C NOAA 12 sensor covers? 816x824x98.7 May 16 1991-033G Tsiklon 3 rocket 1415x1473x82.6 May 16 1991-033A Kosmos-2143 satellite 1400x1416x82.6 VMF Gonets class comsat May 16 1991-033B Kosmos-2144 satellite 1412x1416x82.6 VMF Gonets class comsat May 16 1991-033C Kosmos-2145 satellite 1406x1416x82.6 VMF Gonets class comsat May 16 1991-033D Kosmos-2146 satellite 1394x1416x82.6 VMF Gonets class comsat May 16 1991-033E Kosmos-2147 satellite 1390x1416x82.6 VMF Gonets class comsat May 16 1991-033F Kosmos-2148 satellite 1383x1416x82.6 VMF Gonets class comsat May 17 1990-104S to W 5 PVO radar targets 500x525x82.5 Deployed from Kosmos-2106 May 18 1991-034B Blok-I rocket 191x208x51.6 Reentered May 19 May 18 1991-034A Soyuz TM-12 spaceship 191x208x51.6 Docked with Mir complex May 19 May 21 1991-035B Blok-I rocket 181x243x82.3 Reentered May 23 May 21 1991-035A Resurs-F satellite 229x233x82.3 GUGK remote sensing sat May 24 1991-036B Blok-I rocket 164x342x67.1 Reentered May 27 May 24 1991-036A Kosmos-2149 satellite 163x353x67.1 GRU imaging recon sat May 24 1991-037B Delta 205 rocket 400x2353x25.0 May 24 1991-037C PAM-D rocket 400?x36000?x25? May 24 1991-037A GE3000 Aurora 2 satellite 35734x35846x0.1 GE Alascom comsat May 26 1990-107 Soyuz TM-11 PAO 0x360x51.6 Reentered May 26 May 26 1990-107 Soyuz TM-11 BO 0x360x51.6 Reentered May 26 May 30 1991-038B Blok-I rocket 185x218x51.6 May 30 1991-038A Progress M-8 cargo ferry 185x218x51.6 Docked with Mir complex 10 years ago: 19 Jun 1981. The third Ariane launch places the Meteosat 2 weather satellite and the experimental Indian APPLE comsat in orbit. 20 years ago: 27 Jun 1971. The third attempt to launch the Soviet N-1 lunar rocket ends in failure. Copyright 1991 Jonathan McDowell. Information in this report is obtained from public sources and does not reflect the official views of NASA. .-----------------------------------------------------------------------------. | Jonathan McDowell | phone : (205)544-7724 | | Space Science Lab ES65 | uucp: | | NASA Marshall Space Flight Center | bitnet : | | Huntsville AL 35812 | inter : mcdowell@xanth.msfc.nasa.gov | | USA | span : ssl::mcdowell | '-----------------------------------------------------------------------------' ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 91 15:57:16 GMT From: beguine!bbs.oit.unc.edu@mcnc.org (Bill Woodward) Subject: Asteroid Mining Since there has been a thread running through this newsgroup about the value of gold and platinum that could be mined from an asteroid, and how much it would be worth/how hard it would be to get, etc. My question is this: Ignore the precious metal content of the asteroid. How much nickel and iron is there in an "average" asteroid (one that would be worth going after)? How much money would that amount of iron be worth? How hard would it be to get, and do you care that much if there are some other precious metals in it as impurities? My point is, wouldn't the asteroid be worth going after just for the iron/nickel content? A large amount of the industry in the world is based on iron and iron alloys/refinements (steel). So how much is 1 asteroid worth? -- The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service. internet: bbs.oit.unc.edu or 128.109.157.30 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 91 21:38:45 GMT From: prism!ccoprmd@gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca) Subject: Re: Access to Space In article <1991Jun19.070326.5245@sequent.com> szabo@sequent.com writes: >In article <31559@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca) writes: >>If you couldn't talk to Europe instantaneously, would the demand for >>computers in Europe be less? >Nobody in Europe would be able to buy a symmetric parallel processing >computers. They don't make them. Sequent and our arch-competitor in >the U.S. Pyramid do. Wealth has been created. Over many industries, I don't see how wealth has been created in this case. Wealth has certainly been *transferred*, from European customers to Sequent, but it hasn't been created. Several posters have made extensive posts on this topic, and they've boiled down (in my mind) to the point that communications satellites facilitate the creation of wealth, primarily through more prompt and accurate communications. It still doesn't really stand up to the definition of industry, though, but it is an improvement. When something in orbit directly creates wealth, come back with your examples. >Anyway, judging from the rest of your post you are interested in >personally attacking me, not in thinking about the issue or in >contributing towards progress in space. That's my lot in life for >posting uncomfortable facts and opinions. I may cringe at your >insults, but it is the space program itself that suffers from the >attitude you have exhibited. My sole insult to you was to accuse you of having a hole in your head, since you managed to twist my initial reply to you into a defense of the manned space program, when I had absolutely no such intention. I further pointed out that this was becoming a bad habit of yours. You're not going to martyrize yourself by manfully suffering the abuse of people who don't agree with you and don't like your low-road tactics, so you might want to drop that tactic before you end up in yet more kill files than you undoubtedly already are. (Oh, my job is taxpayer (state level) supported. Am I going to receive a threat in the e-mail?) -- Matthew DeLuca Georgia Institute of Technology "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their Office of Information Technology P.O. box." - Zebadiah Carter, Internet: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu _The Number of the Beast_ ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 91 23:51:00 GMT From: SUWATSON.STANFORD.EDU!REM@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU Subject: To fermat!r (Rich Schroeppel), failed message, Virgo SuperCluster I tried to send email but the return address of "r@fermat.UUCP" didn't work for me and it bounced back. So I'm posting a copy of the message now in the hopes it'll reach the right person (and it may also be of interest to some of you futurists out there). Date: 15 June 91, 00:51:09 PDT From: REM at SUWATSON To: r at fermat.UUCP Hi. Are you the famous friend of Gosper? Fancy seeing you post in sci.space (I only recently discovered that I have access to UseNet newsgroups by manually TELNETting to NNTP servers). On your topic: For many years I have proposed that our longterm goal as a species should be to colonize the Virgo Supercluster (of which we are a member, but I mean colonizing a major fraction of it including virtually all of the central concentration). After that, I don't know, I can't think that far ahead. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 91 00:35:34 GMT From: hub.ucsb.edu!ucsbuxa!3001crad@ucsd.edu (Charles Frank Radley) Subject: Re: Hermes (was Re: (none)) In article dlbres10@pc.usl.edu (Fraering Philip) writes: >How did Hermes become overweight? (That seems to be the next >logical question, right?) >Phil Fraering >dlbres10@pc.usl.edu good question. It has been overweight for a long time, it had been hoped they would reduce wiehgt somehow, but it looks like those attempts have failed. Hermes was redesigned after challenger to try to make it safer and I believe part of the increase could be due to a crew escape capsule ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 91 15:48:53 GMT From: agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!pitt!nss!Paul.Blase@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Paul Blase) Subject: Re: Excavating (minig) gold in the space by NASA. to: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) GC> [...conversation re applicability of meteoric gold to electrical GC> transmission, etc] Needless to say gold powerlines GC> would be impractical even if gold were free. The main use for gold in electronics is in plating connectors and other contacts: aluminum and copper tend to form high resistance oxides, and otherwise just corrode. It's also rather useful as an optical coating on lenses. (BTW, do you know what the main use of silver is? Film emulsion!) --- via Silver Xpress V2.26 [NR] -- Paul Blase - via FidoNet node 1:129/104 UUCP: ...!pitt!nss!Paul.Blase INTERNET: Paul.Blase@nss.FIDONET.ORG ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #779 *******************