Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 05:00:06 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V15 #604 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Tue, 29 Dec 92 Volume 15 : Issue 604 Today's Topics: "Moonraker" -- fact or fiction? (5 msgs) Aluminum as rocket fuel? Galileo GIF Images Available GEO satellites as electrical vehicles Justification for the Space Program (2 msgs) Mars Observer Update - 12/28/92 NASA's role in space Planet Earth Stupid Shut Cost arguements Stupid Shut Cost arguements (was Re: Terminal Velocity (2 msgs) Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Dec 92 10:36:55 GMT From: Dean Adams Subject: "Moonraker" -- fact or fiction? Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,sci.space.shuttle,sci.space,sci.astro eidetics@nic.cerf.net writes: >>Doesn't this remind you of a plot from a James Bond movie? Moonraker? >>Shuttle takes off from transport 747 causing the 747 to crash... I guess the SCA crew in this conspiracy also had to be "replicated". :-> >Glad you guys brought it up. I just happen to have a piece from Dr. Beter >Audio Letter #56 that you might find interesting with regard to "Moonraker" >and the rest of the James Bond adventures, and the background of their >author, the late Ian Fleming. Sorry... it's all moot, since Ian Fleming did not write "Moonraker". They had already run out of his stories by that time... But I would not put it past your Dr. Beter to imagine Fleming having some "inside" MI-5/SIS information on the "Space Shuttle conspiracy", even though it was back in the 1960s. (what does time matter to people who know? :) {Beware! David Rockefeller is watching YOU! (and he wants your GOLD!)} ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 92 13:10:51 GMT From: Jon Luckey Subject: "Moonraker" -- fact or fiction? Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,sci.space.shuttle,sci.space,sci.astro dnadams@nyx.cs.du.edu (Dean Adams) writes: >eidetics@nic.cerf.net writes: > >>Doesn't this remind you of a plot from a James Bond movie? Moonraker? > >>Shuttle takes off from transport 747 causing the 747 to crash... >Sorry... it's all moot, since Ian Fleming did not write "Moonraker". >They had already run out of his stories by that time... But I would >not put it past your Dr. Beter to imagine Fleming having some "inside" >MI-5/SIS information on the "Space Shuttle conspiracy", even though it >was back in the 1960s. (what does time matter to people who know? :) Gee, when was the date for Audio Letter #64 again? Maybe now we know where the James Bond movie writers get their ideas from. They get the latest on what Specter (and other megavillians) are doing by subscribing to Peter Beter's Audio letter. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 13:54:19 GMT From: JKF Subject: "Moonraker" -- fact or fiction? Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,sci.space.shuttle,sci.space,sci.astro In article <1992Dec28.103655.11722@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> dnadams@nyx.cs.du.edu (Dean Adams) writes: > >eidetics@nic.cerf.net writes: > > >>Doesn't this remind you of a plot from a James Bond movie? Moonraker? > >>Shuttle takes off from transport 747 causing the 747 to crash... > >I guess the SCA crew in this conspiracy also had to be "replicated". :-> > > >Glad you guys brought it up. I just happen to have a piece from Dr. Beter > >Audio Letter #56 that you might find interesting with regard to "Moonraker" > >and the rest of the James Bond adventures, and the background of their > >author, the late Ian Fleming. > >Sorry... it's all moot, since Ian Fleming did not write "Moonraker". Ian Fleming *did* write "Moonraker." However, _his_ "Moonraker" was about a _missile_ being built in Britain by Sir Hugo Drax, who, unbeknownst to the public, was actually a German Nazi. Drax's missile, built with public funds and all that, was actually intended to destroy London. Such a missile seemed interesting at the time Fleming wrote the book, but by the time they got around to making a movie, it was old stuff. Hence they kept Drax's name and changed virtually all other details when they made the movie, "Moonraker." ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 92 13:52:32 GMT From: Steve Lamont Subject: "Moonraker" -- fact or fiction? Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,sci.space.shuttle,sci.space,sci.astro In article <1992Dec28.103655.11722@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> dnadams@nyx.cs.du.edu (Dean Adams) writes: >Sorry... it's all moot, since Ian Fleming did not write "Moonraker". >They had already run out of his stories by that time... ... Actually, Fleming did (or at least his clone). It was one of the original thirteen or so James Bond books. Kingsley Amis (??) took over the series sometime in the 1970s with, I think, _License Renewed_. I'm a little hazy on the exact dates and titles of the ersatz Bond books since I was well beyond puberty at the time. :-> Of course, the movies after, say, "Thunderball" (which, in the book form was probably the most plausible plotline the Fleming ever hatched), bore only skant resemblance to the stories in the books, so _Moonraker_, the book, shared only the title with "Moonraker," the film. Somehow, I suspect that the sci.* folk are tiring of all this blather, so followups to rec.arts.movies. spl -- Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608 "Living alone is living in perpetual irony and thinking, more and more frequently, Why not." - Joyce Carol Oates, "The Boyfriend" ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 92 14:36:41 GMT From: "Allen W. Sherzer" Subject: "Moonraker" -- fact or fiction? Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,sci.space.shuttle,sci.space,sci.astro In article <1992Dec28.103655.11722@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> dnadams@nyx.cs.du.edu (Dean Adams) writes: >But I would >not put it past your Dr. Beter to imagine Fleming having some "inside" >MI-5/SIS information on the "Space Shuttle conspiracy", even though it >was back in the 1960s. (what does time matter to people who know? :) Just shows what you know! Remember that TV show back in the 60's called "The Time Tunnel" created by Irwin Allen? Well, Mr. Allen was working for the SSA (I can't tell you what that stands for or they will kill me) and was responsible for announcing to the public the time travel technology which MJ-12 received from the aliens. The show flopped so SSA decided that the public wasn't ready to know about the newly acquired time travel technology (much less the source). However, Flemming managed to use the system (he was the MI-5/SSA liaison) to travel to the present day and uncover the conspiracy. To protect HIS sources he wrote Moonraker under a false name and arranged for it not to be published until after his death. That is how it was done. Pretty obvious when you think about it. Allen PS: (just in case) :-) -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Allen W. Sherzer | "A great man is one who does nothing but leaves | | aws@iti.org | nothing undone" | +----------------------117 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 92 14:36:43 GMT From: John Thompson Reynolds Subject: Aluminum as rocket fuel? Newsgroups: sci.space I've seen references in the past which suggest using Lunar O2 and Aluminum as rocket fuels. Have there been any fairly detailed designs of how such a beast would be constructed? Perhaps a hollow cylinder of packed Aluminum dust into which LOX is pumped? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 17:22:00 GMT From: Ron Baalke Subject: Galileo GIF Images Available Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary,sci.geo.geology ======================= GALILEO GIF IMAGES December 28, 1992 ======================= Five Galileo images released at last week's press conference are now available in GIF format (GIF89a). The images were scanned in from photographs and are not the raw data. Caption files accompanying each image are attached below, and the caption files are also embedded in the image. Make sure you are in binary mode when downloading the images, and in ascii mode when downloading the caption files. The Galileo images are available using anonymous ftp to: ftp: ames.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.18.3) user: anonymous cd: pub/SPACE/GIF files: andes.gif - False color mosaic of the Andes Mountains andes.txt - caption file earthmo2.gif - Color image of the Earth and Moon earthmo2.txt - caption file mideast.gif - Color image of the Middle East including Somalia mideast.txt - caption file moonfals.gif - False color mosaic of the northern regions of the Moon moonfals.txt - caption file moongrid.gif - Gray scale Moon image with overlayed grid moongrid.txt - caption file ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- andes.txt PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011 PHOTO CAPTION GALILEO December 22, 1992 P-41493 TOP GLL/EM21 This false-color mosaic of the central part of the Andes mountains of South America (70W, 19S) is made up of 42 images taken by the Galileo spacecraft from an altitude of about 25,000 kilometers (15,000 miles). The combination of visible and near- infrared filters (green, 0.76 micron and 1.0 micron) was chosen for this picture to separate regions with distinct vegetation and soil types. The mosaic shows the area where Chile, Peru, and Bolivia meet. North is to the left, and the Pacific coast (bottom of picture) is in the foreground. Lakes Titicaca and Poopo are nearly black patches left to right; a large light blue area below and left of Lake Poopo is Salar de Uyuni, a dry salt lake some 120 kilometers (75 miles) across. These lakes lie in the Altiplano, a region between the western and eastern Andes, which are covered by clouds. The water/ice content of the clouds is indicated by their shade of pink. The vegetated Gran Chaco plains east of the Andes are pale green (top of picture). Light blue patches in the mountains to the north (left) are glaciers. The Galileo project, whose primary mission is the exploration of the Jupiter system in 1995-97, is managed for NASA's Office of Space Science and Applications by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- earthmo2.txt PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011 PHOTO CAPTION GALILEO December 22, 1992 P-41508 TOP GLL/EM23 Eight days after its encounter with the Earth, the Galileo spacecraft was able to look back and capture this view of the Moon in orbit about the Earth, taken from a distance of about 6.2 million kilometers (3.9 million miles), on December 16. The picture was constructed from images take through the violet, red, and 1.0-micron infrared filters. The Moon is in the foreground, moving from left to right. The brightly-colored Earth contrasts strongly with the Moon, which reflects only about one-third as much sunlight as Earth. Contrast and color have been computer- enhanced for both objects to improve visibility. Antarctica is visible through clouds (bottom). The Moon's far side is seen; the shadowy indentation in the dawn terminator is the south- Pole/Aitken Basin, one of the largest and oldest lunar impact features, extensively studied from Galileo during the first Earth flyby in December 1990. The Galileo project, whose primary mission is the exploration of the Jupiter system in 1995-97, is managed for NASA's Office of Space Science and Applications by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- mideast.txt PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011 PHOTO CAPTION GALILEO December 22, 1992 P-41474 TOP GLL/EM22 This color image of North-East Africa and Arabia was taken from an altitude of about 500,000 kilometers (300,000 miles) by the Galileo spacecraft on December 9, 1992, as it left the Earth enroute to Jupiter. Most of Egypt (center left) including the Nile Valley, the Red Sea (slightly above center), Israel, Jordan, and the Arabian peninsula are cloud-free. In the center, below the cloud on the coast, is Khartoum, at the confluence of the Blue Nile and the White Nile. Somalia (lower right) is partly cloud- covered. The Galileo project, whose primary mission is the exploration of the Jupiter system in 1995-97, is managed for NASAy's Office of Space Science and Applications by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- moonfals.txt PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011 PHOTO CAPTION (TOP) P-41490 GLL/EM17 December 22, 1992 This false-color mosaic was constructed from a series of 53 images taken through three spectral filters by Galileo'simaging system as the spacecraft flew over the northern regions of the Moon on December 7, 1992. The part of the Moon visible from Earth is on the left side in this view. The color mosaic shows compositional variations in parts of the Moon's northern hemisphere. Bright pinkish areas are highlands materials, such as those surrounding the oval lava-filled Crisium impact basin toward the bottom of the picture. Blue to orange shades indicate volcanic lava flows. To the left of Crisium, the dark blue Mare Tranquillitatis is richer in titanium than the green and orange maria above it. Thin mineral-rich soils associated with relatively recent impacts are represented by light blue colors; the youngest craters have prominent blue rays extending from them. The Galileo project, whose primary mission is the exploration of the Jupiter system in 1995-97, is managed for NASA's Office of Space Science and Applications by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- moongrid.txt PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011 PHOTO CAPTION (TOP) P-41475 GLL/EM15 December 22, 1992 This mosaic picture of the Moon was compiled from 18 images taken with a green filter by Galileo's imaging system during the spacecraft's flyby on December 7, 1992, some 11 hours before its Earth flyby at 1509 UTC (7:09 a.m. Pacific Standard Time) December 8. The north polar region is near the top part of the mosaic, which also shows Mare Imbrium, the dark area on the left; Mare Serenitatis at center; and Mare Crisium, the circular dark area to the right. Bright crater rim and ray deposits are from Copernicus, an impact crater 96 kilometers (60 miles) in diameter. Computer processing has exaggerated the brightness of poorly illuminated features near the day/night terminator in the polar regions, giving a false impression of high reflectivity there. The digital image processing was done by DLR, the German aerospace research establishment near Munich, an international collaborator in the Galileo mission. The Galileo project, whose primary mission is the exploration of the Jupiter system in 1995- 97, is managed for NASA's Office of Space Science and Applications by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. ##### ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | Choose a job you love, and /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | you'll never have to work |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | a day in your life. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 08:14:06 EST From: John Roberts Subject: GEO satellites as electrical vehicles -From: Bruce_Dunn@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Dunn) -Subject: GEO satellites as electrical vehicles -Date: 28 Dec 92 01:10:31 GMT -Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada - An interesting idea. Modern comsats have several kilowatts of power, -enough to run an ion or arcjet engine. An electric engine running off a few -kilowatts has a mass of only a few kg, so could easily be carried on the -vehicle. -... -A major problem would probably be radiation damage due to having to spend -some months in the Van Allen belts as the satellite spirals down to LEO. Question: what is the radiation profile of the Van Allen belts? This is of interest because GEO is in the outer portions of the outer belt. In particular, what is the ratio between the peak radiation level in the belts and the level at GEO? John Roberts roberts@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 15:22:58 GMT From: "Dr. Norman J. LaFave" Subject: Justification for the Space Program Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space In article <1992Dec27.205945.25241@cs.rochester.edu> Paul Dietz, dietz@cs.rochester.edu writes: >Perhaps after remarks like this, Herman will be less strident in his >criticisms of the innumerate. I hope Paul that this isn't your idea of a substantive rebuttal. Herman's posting was right on the money. All you have to do is apply historical precedence to the arguement to see the importance of the "exploration of the unknown" to the health of a society. Small, resource-poor countries like England and Portugal became world powers because they dared to reach for the unknown. Although they did so in hopes of monetary and political gain, they had no idea of the magnitude of the benefits they would accrue.... nor could they have known. Indeed the decline of these societies has come on the heal of their complacency. Forget about spin-offs...any spin-offs that result are "icing on the cake". Forget about mining and solar power satellites....this is just what we can concieve of at present. History teaches us that the true gains in cutting-edge science and space and ocean exploration have yet to be discovered. Norman Dr. Norman J. LaFave Senior Engineer Lockheed Engineering and Sciences Company When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro Hunter Thompson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 17:24:19 GMT From: Paul Dietz Subject: Justification for the Space Program Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space In article <1992Dec28.152258.23834@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> Dr. Norman J. LaFave writes: >In article <1992Dec27.205945.25241@cs.rochester.edu> Paul Dietz, >dietz@cs.rochester.edu writes: >> Perhaps after remarks like this, Herman will be less strident in his >> criticisms of the innumerate. > I hope Paul that this isn't your idea of a substantive rebuttal. No, but I am allowed to point out nonsensical statements, aren't I? > Herman's posting was right on the money. All you have to do is > apply historical precedence to the arguement to see the importance > of the "exploration of the unknown" to the health of a society. > Small, resource-poor countries like England and Portugal became > world powers because they dared to reach for the unknown. > Although they did so in hopes of monetary and political gain, they > had no idea of the magnitude of the benefits they would accrue.... > nor could they have known. > Indeed the decline of these societies has come on the heal of > their complacency. The differences between the age of exploration and today are considerable. The raw mineral and agricultural products (and slaves) that profited the explorers of that age are a much smaller fraction of GDPs today. More generally, arguments by analogy are essentially circular. You have to assume that the analogy is valid to believe the argument. I don't see any reason to do that here. There are contrary analogies: for example, exploration of Antarctica has been of little practical benefit to the exploring countries (although it has been of scientific benefit to humanity as a whole). Paul F. Dietz dietz@cs.rochester.edu ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 92 17:47:00 GMT From: Ron Baalke Subject: Mars Observer Update - 12/28/92 Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary Forwarded from the Mars Observer Project MARS OBSERVER STATUS REPORT December 28, 1992 10:00 AM PST Launch +94 Days The Spacecraft Team reports that spacecraft subsystems and instruments are performing nominally. The spacecraft is in Array Normal Spin state; the downlink data rate is at 250 bps while the uplink data rate is 125 bps. C5 A execution began on December 19. C5 is the outer cruise transition sequence which is marked by the spacecraft attitude being changed from an off sun orientation to direct pointing at Earth. The planned C5 execution completion date is January 4, 1993. Stored sequence activities are at a minimum for the next several days. The Inner/Outer Cruise transition star catalog/ephemeris is scheduled to be uplinked January 2. The Flight Sequence C5 B load will be uploaded on January 3. The High Gain Antenna "Use" command is scheduled to be sent on January 4. Mission Operations is planning to send interactive commands to power on and power off several subsystem heaters this week; no instrument commanding is involved. This is being done to dissipate an excessive power build up which resulted from last week's sun-coning. The acting Mission Manager and Spacecraft Team are meeting this morning to review this strategy and to plan command approval meetings as necessary. The MOC (Mars Observer Camera) "bakeout", which was earlier scheduled to end today, is now planned to continue into C6 through January 14. The MOC Instrument Team agreed to this Spacecraft Team requested change to help with excess power dissipation. The January 14 MOC heater power off date allows 4 days for the instrument to return to equilibrium for the scheduled January 18 focus test. Today the spacecraft is 36,744,962 km (22,832,261 miles) from Earth, traveling at a velocity of 9.0877 kilometers per second (20,328 miles per hour) with respect to Earth. One way light time is approximately 123 seconds. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | Choose a job you love, and /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | you'll never have to work |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | a day in your life. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 92 13:59:32 GMT From: David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org Subject: NASA's role in space Newsgroups: sci.space The Tethered Satellite System should be a case that fits NASA's role perfectly - a research program in a new field. However, even that program was frought with the burden of the "old" NASA. The current program managers probably couldn't even name the program managers who were responsible for the original design. Howver, there is a big difference between NASA engaging in basic science, and NASA operating a launch system. --- Maximus 2.01wb ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 92 16:54:01 GMT From: Joe Cain Subject: Planet Earth Newsgroups: sci.geo.geology,alt.sci.planetology,sci.space In article <1hmk1cINN5ns@morrow.stanford.edu> andy@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Andy Michael USGS Guest) writes: >>In article <1992Dec26.155349.27561@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu (Joe Cain) writes: >>> Has anyone more than perused the new book "Planet Earth" by >>>Cesare Emiliani? It seems to be an interesting tome, but at first >>>glance seems like written by a nut and/or a flamboyant Italian. It >>>has material all the way from science and religion, basic physics, >>>meteorology, and geology (planetary, historical...) to biological >>>evolution. 107 of the 718 pages are tables. (Cambridge U. Press, >>>1992) (many lines deleted) > This report makes a very >persuasive case for the importance of earth system science which I had >previously considered to be the latest buzzword to sell stuff to >congress. So while a lot of other people are talking about the >importance of this Cesare has gone and written the textbook for it. My >hat is off to him. Two hats at least.. Joseph Cain cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu cain@fsu.bitnet scri::cain ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 10:35:52 CST From: ssi!lfa@uunet.UU.NET (Louis F. Adornato) Subject: Stupid Shut Cost arguements "Allen W. Sherzer" writes: >In article <1992Dec25.014627.4982@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) wri >tes: > >>In military procurement, the development costs are charged against >>the prototypes, X, Y, etc, and the operational vehicles of the procurement >>are charged at "flyaway" cost. > >Which I suspect is done largely to hide the true cost. I point out that if >the contractors in question ran their accounts this way they would all be >in jail and out of buisness. Wrong. Many major corporations consider research and/or development a "sunk" cost - it's something that's considered part of the cost of staying in business, and, since it's paid for in cash that's generated by the current product line, it doesn't _have_ to be amortized against the new product lines, and so it isn't. This allows much more flexibility in developing a pricing strategy for the new line. The only concern in this case is the rate of return on investment and the total return on investment (one is the derivative of the profits to be generated by the new product line, the other is the integral of profits over the life of the product line). Of course, a start up business, with no existing product line and no cash flow, has to borrow money to cover initial R&D, and that borrowed money has to be paid back over the life of the loan, therefore the R&D cost has to be amortized against the cost of the (eventual) product. ROI and rate of RIO are still important (if the ROI is less than your startup financing, or if the rate is less than the maturation rate of your financing, you're in BIG trouble). > >>Following this model, Enterprise ate the >>development costs, and it's retired. Current Orbiters are only liable for >>their $1.5 billion flyaway cost and their operational costs. > >But why should we follow that model? Because NASA paid for the design and development work (and precious little research) up front, and doesn't have to pay anyone back for those costs. The fact that the Federal government itself borrowed that money doesn't enter into it, it's still a sunk cost paid out of current funds. > Hiding costs like you advocate only >encourages waste and inefficiency. On the contrary, by keeping development and operational costs separate, there's less opportunity for waste and inefficency in one phase to get buried in the lifecycle costs. Besides, development and operations are two completely different kinds of costs, so drawing a clean line between the two also provides better historical information for budgeting, forecasting, and cost control on the next project. > How can we possibly make access to space >cheap if we make it impossible to identify those costs and reduce them? How do you figure that limiting design and development costs to the prototype makes it impossible to identify them? Seems to me that it's the other way around; the amortization you propose leads to much more blurring of where the real costs where incurred. Attempting to amortize a sunk cost artificially inflates the per-flight cost, and will also probably swamp out many meaningful variations Of course, amortizing the development costs does have one real advantage; it ensures that the shuttle's per-flight costs will always be astronomical, while allowing the DC program to hide it's own development costs behind a vaporware figure of useful lifespan. I think this is not only unethical and deceptive, it's also unnecessary and self-defeating. Developing a new spacecraft is expensive, especially when you want to design it for a long and cost-effective life, and we shouldn't try to hide this. We're not going to do anyone any favors by selling the American public on another grandiose "space-truck" that can't live up to inflated expectations (I once saw a 1974 vintage (awful) movie that had Columbia flying _three times_ in one day). Lou Adornato | "Sure, the cow may have jumped over the Supercomputer Systems, Inc | moon, but she burned up on reentry" Eau Claire, WI | The secretary (and the rest of the company) uunet!ssi!lfa or lfa@ssi.com | have disavowed any knowledge of my actions. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 92 15:46:24 GMT From: "Allen W. Sherzer" Subject: Stupid Shut Cost arguements (was Re: Terminal Velocity Newsgroups: sci.space In article <72482@cup.portal.com> BrianT@cup.portal.com (Brian Stuart Thorn) writes: > You seem to have two sets of measuring systems at work. One which you > use for DC, Titan, Delta et al, and one which you use for Shuttle. I disagree; I feel I am working very hard to account for both the same way. However, if you disagree, please post your own numbers. State the rules you want to use and apply to both systems fairly. Then show that Shuttle is better. I await your reply. allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Allen W. Sherzer | "A great man is one who does nothing but leaves | | aws@iti.org | nothing undone" | +----------------------117 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 92 13:57:44 GMT From: David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org Subject: Stupid Shut Cost arguements (was Re: Terminal Velocity Newsgroups: sci.space The cost of shuttle operations is so high that regardless of whether the flight rate is 4 or 6 or 8 per year that the cost compares unfavorably with private launch services (or a successful DC-1). The Space Shuttle is simply the highest cost (per pound) launch vehicle ever operated. --- Maximus 2.01wb ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 15 : Issue 604 ------------------------------