Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 05:00:08 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #459 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Thu, 15 Apr 93 Volume 16 : Issue 459 Today's Topics: "Temporary orbits" for Mars moons? Alaska Pipeline and Space Station! Apollo Training in Iceland (2 msgs) Big Cost Tag, Attention Given.. Clementine Science Team Selected (3 msgs) Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter? (3 msgs) Did any DC-X gifs show up? (3 msgs) MACH 25 landing site bases? Mars Observer Update - 04/14/93 Orbital RepairStation (2 msgs) Ron's Space Calendar? Shuttle Telemetry Voyager pictures What if the USSR had reached the Moon first? What Minerals are Cheaper on Mars? than earth? Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 17:42:37 GMT From: zellner@stsci.edu Subject: "Temporary orbits" for Mars moons? Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro In article <1993Apr13.204135.199184@zeus.calpoly.edu>, jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes: > Is the "temporary orbit" theory accounting for the comet about > Jupiter similar to how Demios and Phobos got captured about > Mars? If not, what is different between the Comet at Jupiter > and the Martian moons? > > The Martian satellites are in highly circular, co-planar orbits. If they were indeed "captured" from somewhere else, it presumably happened during an epoch in which there was still lots of viscosity (unaccreted gas and dust) in the near vicinity of Mars. Ben ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 93 07:25:46 GMT From: Ralph Buttigieg Subject: Alaska Pipeline and Space Station! Newsgroups: sci.space Original to: prb@access.digex.com G'day prb@access.digex.com 07 Apr 01 17:49, prb@access.digex.com wrote to All: pdc> Well, don't go writing about how it's impossible to get multi-year pdc> funding proposals. Write about how it is difficult and rare. And having pdc> worked on several multi-year projects, i can see why the government pdc> doesn't like them. THese were military projects that were screwed pdc> from word one, But instead, they went till the money ran out. pdc> The taxpayers took it in the shorts. Multi year, means some form of pdc> congressional review. This should not apply to a commercial Space Station, which is what the original thread was about. Rent would only be paid on utilisation. No station, not rent. ta Ralph --- GoldED 2.41 * Origin: VULCAN'S WORLD - Sydney Australia (02) 635-1204 3:713/6 (3:713/635) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 1993 10:36:18 -0400 From: Pat Subject: Apollo Training in Iceland Newsgroups: sci.space Yeah, If they really wanted deolation, they didn't have to go further then the SOuth Bronx :-) Or the West side of Chicago. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 18:22:02 GMT From: Dave Stephenson Subject: Apollo Training in Iceland Newsgroups: sci.space henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >In article stephens@geod.emr.ca (Dave Stephenson) writes: >>Some of the Astronauts trained near Sudbury in Ontario for that reason. >>(The Nickel smelters wiped out the plant life down wind at the time) >Actually, they were in Sudbury not because of the desolation caused by >the smelters, but because the Sudbury nickel deposits are at the bottom >of a very large meteorite crater. they were in Iceland, presumably it was for training on volcanic >geological formations, which are everywhere in Iceland. >If they wanted superficial resemblance to moonscapes, they need not have >gone so far afield. Trips like that were motivated by the geological >history of the regions, not by surface appearance. I remember the press releases at the time (never trust what you read in the press), which I was reading in England, all mentioned about the 'lunar landscapes' around Sudbury. NASA supported research in Iceland to study the volcanic conditions and how they would affect the Apollo missions, but I do not know if they sent astronauts there. -- Dave Stephenson Geodetic Survey of Canada Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Internet: stephens@geod.emr.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 09:31:37 GMT From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu Subject: Big Cost Tag, Attention Given.. Newsgroups: sci.space I know one thing that is interesting.. At least in the establishment of space exploration and usage that unless its new and has a big cost, they don't want to deal with it.. or even think of the idea.. If it has anything to do with recycling, repair (other than as a publicity stunt), retrieve (same as for repair), or make it cheaper or use material already in orbit, the establishment does not even want to talk to ya.. Is that because the establishment is having to much time with their cushy contracts and their $7 a spoon cost, similar to the Air Farces habits (and other military establishments).. Basically what I am saying is there is to many kick backs, and cost over runs in the US military and its daughter (to a point) agencies, such as NASA.. I have no proof other than a feel of what I say. Am I speaking bull or is there really proof.. Let you be the judge! == Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 13:08:53 GMT From: Dave Stephenson Subject: Clementine Science Team Selected Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro seale@possum.den.mmc.com (Eric H Seale) writes: >Basically, SDIO wants to test out new sensors for potential anti-missile >use -- international treaties won't allow you to test them on satellites >(the idea of testing them on natural bodies is pretty much a treaty >loophole). >Eric Seale Not quite. THe sensors are anti-missile sensors and would have been tested against sounding (non-orbital) rockets, which after all are much more like missiles. But, SDIO has had bad luck with its sounding rockets, and of course even high appogee balistic rockets do not stay around all that long. The cost of replacing the sounding rockets with a longer and more scientifically interesting mission and using the Moon and an asteroid as mock targets was fairly small. Remember the first government scientist in the British Empire was the Astronomer Royal, who was paid 100 pounds sterling, (less 10 pounds for taxes, bring your own instruments) from the Department of Ordinance Budget (i.e. the military). Flamsteed House (the original RGO) was built out of Army Surplus Scrap ( A gate house at the Tower of London ?), and paid for by the sale of time expired gunpowder (not to exceed 500 pounds sterling). This sort of co-operation goes back a long way. I can not stand whores that pass themselves off as virgins! -- Dave Stephenson Geodetic Survey of Canada Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Internet: stephens@geod.emr.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 14:56:06 GMT From: Nick Haines Subject: Clementine Science Team Selected Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro In article stephens@geod.emr.ca (Dave Stephenson) writes: Remember the first government scientist in the British Empire was the Astronomer Royal, who was paid [...] from the Department of Ordinance Budget (i.e. the military). Flamsteed House (the original RGO) was built out of Army Surplus Scrap ( A gate house at the Tower of London ?), and paid for by the sale of time expired gunpowder [...] At the time, astronomy was vital to the military, in that navigation and cartography were of primary impoortance to the military, and good cartography was impossible without good astronomy. The relevance these daysis somewhat less obvious. Nick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 15:25:31 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Clementine Science Team Selected Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro In article <1993Apr13.133347.11466@den.mmc.com> seale@possum.den.mmc.com (Eric H Seale) writes: >Basically, SDIO wants to test out new sensors for potential anti-missile >use -- international treaties won't allow you to test them on satellites... Nonsense, SDIO has run sensor tests against satellites repeatedly. There is no treaty prohibition against it. -- All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 09:26:31 GMT From: Mark Brader Subject: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter? Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary So how close would the comet have gotten to Jupiter on the pass that put it into temporary orbit, and how far is it likely to get from Jupiter before it makes its escape? Just for comparison, I note that the permanent satellites fall into four groups of four. The innermost ones have orbits with semimajor axes from 128,000 to 222,000 km (80,000 to 177,000 miles); the big Galilean ones are from 422,000 to 1,880,000 km (262,000 to 1,170,000 miles); then there is a group at 11.1 to 11.7 million km (6.90 to 7.27 million miles), and another group at 21.2 to 23.7 million km (13.2 to 14.1 million miles), with the last group orbiting retrograde and having orbital periods around 2 years. So how does the comet's orbit scale against these? -- Mark Brader For I do not believe that the stars are spread over a Toronto spherical surface at equal distances from one center; utzoo!sq!msb I suppose their distances from us to vary so much that msb@sq.com some are 2 or 3 times as remote as others. -- Galileo This article is in the public domain. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 15:31:49 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter? Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary In article <1993Apr14.092631.20538@sq.sq.com> msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes: >Just for comparison, I note that the permanent satellites fall into >four groups of four... [last] group at 21.2 to 23.7 million km (13.2 to >14.1 million miles), with the last group orbiting retrograde and having >orbital periods around 2 years. So how does the comet's orbit scale >against these? Wouldn't be surprised if it was comparable to the last group. Those outer retrograde satellites are widely suspected to be captured asteroids, and they may be somewhat temporary on a geological time scale. -- All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 1993 15:51 UT From: Ron Baalke Subject: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter? Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary In article <1993Apr14.092631.20538@sq.sq.com>, msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes... > >So how close would the comet have gotten to Jupiter on the pass that >put it into temporary orbit, and how far is it likely to get from >Jupiter before it makes its escape? The answer to all of these questions is we don't know yet. We don't know for sure if the comet is in a temporary orbit. The comet was only recently discovered and after it had made its Jupiter flyby. There are too few data points to accurately compute its trajectory at the present time. It will take several weeks of observations to collect enough points. This is further complicated by the fact that the comet is in several pieces. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | and causes more aggravation | instead. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 1993 17:18:20 GMT From: "Chris W. Johnson" Subject: Did any DC-X gifs show up? Newsgroups: sci.space In article Douglas R Fils, fils@iastate.edu writes: > Did any GIFS show up from the roll out of the DC-X? > I recall someone mentioning that they might be able to get some > and I have been away from the net for a few days and thought > I might have missed any notice. That was me. The answer is no, the images haven't shown-up yet. I expect that both of the people who were kind enough to offer images are still getting their film developed and the results mailed, digitized, etc. Nonetheless, as soon as I get the images, I'll make them available in the pub/delta-clipper directory of bongo.cc.utexas.edu. Someone, either me or the owners of the pictures will probably post a note to sci.space when this happens. If anyone else out there has images or info on the Delta Clipper project they'd like to make available, let me know, or just ftp them directly into bongo's pub/delta-clipper/incoming directory. Thanks to all. ----Chris Chris W. Johnson Internet: chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu UUCP: {husc6|uunet}!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!chrisj CompuServe: >INTERNET:chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu AppleLink: chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu@internet# ...wishing the Delta Clipper team success in the upcoming DC-X flight tests. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 18:20:31 GMT From: Douglas R Fils Subject: Did any DC-X gifs show up? Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1qgiah$h9g@news.cerf.net> diaspar@nic.cerf.net (Diaspar Virtual Reality Network) writes: >The rollout was great and I got lots of great shots. I attended >the press briefing and got shots of the DC-Y model, too. All >in 3D > >David H. Mitchell > > David, Are you still planing on scanning these and posting them somewhere? Hope Hope Hope. If you could that would be GREAT. Thanks for report of the rollout as well take care Doug -- ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 1993 19:21:02 GMT From: Diaspar Virtual Reality Network Subject: Did any DC-X gifs show up? Newsgroups: sci.space Will get them as soon as possible and will put them in the ftp sites that have been offered for use. David H. Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 19:24:00 From: Earle Durboraw Subject: MACH 25 landing site bases? Newsgroups: sci.space Hmmm...is the shuttle an aircraft? Its re-entry speed is close to that. * Origin: *AmeriComm*, 214/373-7314. Dallas'Info Source. (1:124/6507) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 1993 20:36 UT From: Ron Baalke Subject: Mars Observer Update - 04/14/93 Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary Forwarded from: PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011 MARS OBSERVER MISSION STATUS April 14, 1993 All spacecraft subsystems are performing well as Mars Observer heads for a rendezvous with the Red Planet on Aug. 24, 1993. The spacecraft experienced a slight attitude change on Friday, April 9, when an internal software test failed and erroneously indicated that inertial reference had been lost. When this happened, on-board fault protection initiated a "contingency mode," which automatically switched spacecraft communications from the high-gain to the low-gain antenna. Data rates and power consumption were reduced, and the solar arrays were repositioned to a more favorable orientation toward the sun. The incident has occurred before and ground controllers understand it. No hardware problems are involved and the spacecraft performed flawlessly in switching to the contingency mode. A command sequence to modify on-board software will be uplinked in late May. Meanwhile, the spacecraft was returned to normal cruise configuration late Tuesday, April 13. A magnetometer calibration sequence that would have occurred during the recovery period was postponed until May. The camera team began a series of narrow-angle and wide- angle imaging tests on Tuesday afternoon, and photographed Jupiter while it was in the camera's field of view Tuesday night. The camera tests were executed by non-stored sequence commands that were closely coordinated by instrument, spacecraft and ground operations teams. The gravitational wave experiment using Mars Observer and two other interplanetary spacecraft -- Galileo and Ulysses -- also concluded this week, on Monday, April 12, at about 1:20 a.m. Pacific Daylight Time. The radio science team will spend a minimum of six months analyzing the data. Results may be forthcoming by fall or winter 1993. Today the Mars Observer spacecraft is about 25 million kilometers (15 million miles) from Mars and 178 million kilometers (111 million miles) from Earth. The spacecraft is traveling at a velocity of about 8,200 kilometers per hour (5,000 miles per hour) with respect to Mars. ##### ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | and causes more aggravation | instead. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 15:28:34 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Orbital RepairStation Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Apr14.055809.14477@marlin.jcu.edu.au> cemn@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Michael Nielsen) writes: > It seems to me that so many billion of dollars are floating >around in orbit around the earth... >It seems like a huge opportunity for the development for an orbital >station capable of carrying out a repair of a vehicle in orbit, with out >the clumsy suits (of course this adds problems). The biggest problem with this is that all orbits are not alike. It can actually be more expensive to reach a satellite from another orbit than from the ground. Clarke orbit is about the only place where there are a lot of satellites in the same orbit, reachable relatively cheaply from a single repair base... and it is awkwardly high up, and in the fringes of the outer Van Allen belt -- a poor place for a manned station. -- All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 19:45:55 GMT From: David Pugh Subject: Orbital RepairStation Newsgroups: sci.space In article , henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: |> The biggest problem with this is that all orbits are not alike. It can |> actually be more expensive to reach a satellite from another orbit than |> from the ground. Unless, of course, you have a high Isp OTV handy and don't mind waiting a few months for the OTV to recover the ailing satellite. Of course, to make this work you need a proven ion/arc-jet drive (or are willing to prove it on the OTV) and a reliable mechanism for capturing satellites. Neither of which we have. Then again, the OTV would be useful even without the capture mechanism for launching satellites from LEO to whereever and then having the OTV return to LEO for the next payload. -- ... He was determined to discover the David Pugh underlying logic behind the universe. ...!seismo!cmucs!dep Which was going to be hard, because there wasn't one. _Mort_, Terry Pratchett ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 93 19:35:36 GMT From: jsmill01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu Subject: Ron's Space Calendar? Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space I find that I am in need of Ron Baalke "Space Calendar". If anyone has it on line, could you please send me a copy of it. Thanks in advance. Scott Miller, Program Coordinator Rauch Memorial Planetarium University of Louisville jsmill01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 93 01:25:03 GMT From: Paul Britton Subject: Shuttle Telemetry Newsgroups: sci.space Does anyone have any lists for telemetry frequencies from the Space Shuttle when it is on a mission, and what sort of data does the orbiter send back to the ground based tracking stations... Paul --- FMail 0.94 * Origin: SATCOM_AUSTRALIA Space & Satellite BBS 61-2-905-0849 (3:714/905) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 93 10:01:45 -0600 From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey Subject: Voyager pictures Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Apr14.041607.19242@pony.Ingres.COM>, garrett@Ingres.COM (THE SKY ALREADY FELL. NOW WHAT?) writes: > Hi, I hope I'm posting this to the right group. I would > like to get some big, blow-up prints of the pictures that Voyager took > on its way past Jupiter and Saturn. Does anyone have any idea how I > could come by them? I looked through the FAQ's but I didn't see anything > relevant. The simplest and probably cheapest source is the U.S. Government Printing Office bookstore. They have local bookstores in many cities, but you can order from the central one in Washington too. Ask them for specialized catalogues of space and astronomy stuff as well as their general catalogue. U.S. Government Printing Office MAin Office 710 N. Capitol St. Washington, D.C. 20402 (202)275-2091 PlanSoc has some posters; in the latest *Planetary Report* I see they've got Jupiter/Saturn/Uranus 3-poster set $15 Neptune 2-poster set $10 Solar system in Pictures (nine little 8 x 10s) $10 Jupiter laser print $8 Uranus laser print $8 Planetary Society 65 North Catalina Avenue Pasadena, California 91106 (818)793-1675 Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey | Bartlett's Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory | Most Familiar Quotation Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET | (according to W. H. Leininger): Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV | "Say, that's pretty good! SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS | Mind if I use it?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 19:24:21 GMT From: Blair Haworth Subject: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first? Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if,sci.space In article <13APR199316062176@rover.uchicago.edu> frank@rover.uchicago.edu writes: > Staying off the subject, Heinlein also miscued badly in the story saying > that when Mike died, all the banks went back to using abacuses. Saw a > quote the other day that if we had to replace all the computational > power just used by computers in banking with humans with mechanical > calculators or abacuses or whatever, it would take the entire population > of the US working 40 hour weeks. Correction: that was one bank, and the computer wasn't Mike, but his "idiot son". Note also that Heinlein's Luna was a small population, >3,000,000, and a mainly cash economy. Sorry, just had to ride to the defense... -- The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service. internet: laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 93 20:24:12 GMT From: Ralph Buttigieg Subject: What Minerals are Cheaper on Mars? than earth? Newsgroups: sci.space Original to: seale@possum.den.mmc.com G'day seale@possum.den.mmc.com sdmc> I didn't see this program, but the Martian atmosphere is largely made up sdmc> of carbon dioxide -- tough to get much fuel out of that. There was some sdmc> talk a while back of landing a nuclear-powered ship on Mars (a ways into sdmc> the future) to electrolyze CO2 into CO & O2. Then, you "burn" the sdmc> carbon monoxide in your rocket engine for thrust: What he seems to be refering to is Robert Zurbin's Mars Direct plan. A spacecraft would land on Mars with some hydrogen. It would then convert some of the CO2 in the atmosphere to produce methane and oxygen. That would be used for the return flight. ta Ralph --- GoldED 2.41 * Origin: VULCAN'S WORLD - Sydney Australia (02) 635-1204 3:713/6 (3:713/635) ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 459 ------------------------------