Date: Sun, 18 Apr 93 05:06:47 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #469 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Sun, 18 Apr 93 Volume 16 : Issue 469 Today's Topics: Atlas revisited Clementine mission name LRDPA news NASA "Wraps" Space Clipper Launch Article Talking to Boeing management about SSTO type stuff from a shareholder perspective. Venus Lander for Venus Conditions. WANTED - Optical Shaft Encoders for Telescope Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 06:26:03 GMT From: 21012d Subject: Atlas revisited Newsgroups: sci.space I found it very interesting that Atlas depended on pressure to maintain tank geometry....leads me to the question: ? have any of the SSTO concepts explored pressurized tankage such that the launch configuration would be significantly different from the reentry one? I have long been facinated by pnumatic structures as conceived and built by Frei Otto and others, a "ballon" tank SSTO sounds very clever. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 93 22:19:04 From: Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org Subject: Clementine mission name Newsgroups: sci.space Mark Prado >Please go just one step further: >How has the word "Clementine" been associated with mining? Old pioneer song from the 1850's or so goes as follows: "In a cavern, in a canyon, Excavating for a mine, Dwelt a miner, forty-niner, And his daughter, CLEMENTINE" Chorus: "Oh my darling, Oh my darling, Oh my darling Clementine. You are lost and gone forever, Oh my darling Clementine." I've also had it explained (but not confirmed from a reliable data source) that CLEMENTINE is an acronym. Something like Combined Lunar Elemental Mapper Experiment on Extended Non Terrestrial Intercept Near Earth. Personally, I think that acronym was made up to fit the name (if it really is an acronym). ------------------------------------------------------------------ Wales Larrison Space Technology Investor --- Maximus 2.01wb ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 93 00:18:32 From: David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org Subject: LRDPA news Newsgroups: sci.space Many of you at this point have seen a copy of the Lunar Resources Data Purchase Act by now. This bill, also known as the Back to the Moon bill, would authorize the U.S. government to purchase lunar science data from private and non-profit vendors, selected on the basis of competitive bidding, with an aggregate cap on bid awards of $65 million. If you have a copy of the bill, and can't or don't want to go through all of the legalese contained in all Federal legislation,don't both - you have a free resource to evaluate the bill for you. Your local congressional office, listed in the phone book,is staffed by people who can forward a copy of the bill to legal experts. Simply ask them to do so, and to consider supporting the Lunar Resources Data Purchase Act. If you do get feedback, negative or positive, from your congressional office, please forward it to: David Anderman 3136 E. Yorba Linda Blvd., Apt G-14, Fullerton, CA 92631, or via E-Mail to: David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org. Another resource is your local chapter of the National Space Society. Members of the chapter will be happy to work with you to evaluate and support the Back to the Moon bill. For the address and telephone number of the nearest chapter to you, please send E-mail, or check the latest issue of Ad Astra, in a library near you. Finally, if you have requested, and not received, information about the Back to the Moon bill, please re-send your request. The database for the bill was recently corrupted, and some information was lost. The authors of the bill thank you for your patience. --- Maximus 2.01wb ------------------------------ From: "Allen W. Sherzer" Subject: NASA "Wraps" Newsgroups: sci.space Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow References: <9APR199318394890@judy.uh.edu> <1993Apr10.145502.28866@iti.org> <17APR199316423628@judy.uh.edu> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 03:41:01 GMT Lines: 91 Sender: news@CRABAPPLE.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU Source-Info: Sender is really isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU In article <17APR199316423628@judy.uh.edu> wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov writes: >I don't care who told you this it is not generally true. I see EVERY single >line item on a contract and I have to sign it. There is no such thing as >wrap at this university. Dennis, I have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions of $$. Customers included government (including NASA), for profit and non-profit companies. All expected a wrap (usually called a fee). Much of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors. The subcontractors where universities, for-profits, non-profits, and even some of the NASA Centers for the Commercialization of Space. ALL charged fees as part of the work. Down the street is one of the NASA commercialization centers; they charge a fee. Now, I'm sure your a competent engineer Dennis, but you clearly lack experience in several areas. Your posts show that you don't understand the importance of integration in large projects. You also show a lack of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything. This isn't a flame, jsut a statement. Your employer DOES charge a fee. You may not see it but you do. >>Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate. Go ask your >>costing people how much fee they add to a project. >I did they never heard of it but suggest that, like our president did, that >any percentage number like this is included in the overhead. Well there you are Dennis. As I said, they simply include the fee in their overhead. Many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can change depending on the customer. >No Allen you did not. You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee >of the Overhead capital of NASA. Integration, Dennis, isn't overhead. >Nothing that Reston does could not be dont >better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers where the work is going on. Dennis, Reston has been the only NASA agency working to reduce costs. When WP 02 was hemoraging out a billion $$, the centers you love so much where doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem. Reston was the only place you would find people actually interested in solving the problems and building a station. >Kinda funny isn't it that someone who talks about a problem like this is >at a place where everything is overhead. When you have a bit more experience Dennis, you will realize that integration isn't overhead. It is the single most important part of a successful large scale effort. >Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally >demanded change that caused the problems? Methinks that you are being >selective with the facts again. The story you refer to said that some NASA people blamed it on Congress. Suprise suprise. The fact remains that it is the centers you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldn't address the problems until the press published the story. Are you saying the Reston managers where wrong to get NASA to address the overruns? You approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns? >If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost >of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year. You stated that your >"friend" at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it >for a billion a year "if the wrap were gone". This merely points out a >blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see. You should know Dennis that NASA doesn't include transport costs for resuply. That comes from the Shuttle budget. What they where saying is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport. >Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going >to have to do Allen's math for him for a while. I will have little chance to >do so. I do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of Reston to ask that the problems with WP 02 be addressed. Allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" | | W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." | +----------------------60 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 93 22:35:44 From: Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org Subject: Space Clipper Launch Article Newsgroups: sci.space To All -- I thought the net would find this amusing.. From the March 1993 "Aero Vision" (The newsletter for the Employees of McDonnell Douglas Aerospace at Huntington Beach, California). SPACE CLIPPERS LAUNCHED SUCCESSFULLY "On Monday, March 15 at noon, Quest Aerospace Education, Inc. launched two DC-Y Space Clippers in the mall near the cafeteria. The first rocket was launched by Dr. Bill Gaubatz, director and SSTO program manager, and the second by Air Force Captain Ed Spalding, who with Staff Sgt. Don Gisburne represents Air Force Space Command, which was requested by SDIO to assess the DC-X for potential military operational use. Both rocket launches were successful. The first floated to the ground between the cafeteria and Building 11, and the second landed on the roof of the cafeteria. Quest's Space Clipper is the first flying model rocket of the McDonnell Douglas DC-X. The 1/122nd semi-scale model of the McDonnell Douglas Delta Clipper has an estimated maximum altitude of 300 feet. The Space Clippers can be used in educational settings to teach mathematics and science, as well as social studies and other applications. The Space Clipper is available either in the $35 Space Clipper outfit, which includes everything needed for three launches, or as individual rockets for $12 each. Both are available through hobby shops or by calling 1-800-858- 7302." By the way -- this is not an endorsement to buy the product nor is it an advertisement to buy the product. I make no claims about the product. This is posted for public information only (hey, I found it amusing...), and is merely a repeat of what was included in the MDSSC Huntington Beach Newsletter. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Wales Larrison Space Technology Investor --- Maximus 2.01wb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 06:18:52 GMT From: 21012d Subject: Talking to Boeing management about SSTO type stuff from a shareholder perspective. Newsgroups: sci.space I might suggest giving the management some more mumble time by asking the very leading question (in two or three parts) What are your long term expectations of space market, what projects specifically are they funding by internal funds and at what levels and what competition do you expect in this area. (This last point is always worth hitting upper management with "gently" if you want them to think and as hard as you can if you have a good case that there really is competion) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 06:39:55 GMT From: 21012d Subject: Venus Lander for Venus Conditions. Newsgroups: sci.space I doubt there are good prospects for a self armoring system for venus surface conditions (several hundred degrees, very high pressure of CO2, possibly sulfuric and nitric acids or oxides but it is a notion to consider for outer planets rs where you might pick up ices under less extream upper atmosphere conditions buying deeper penetration. A nice creative idea, unlikly but worthy of thinking about. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 06:21:31 GMT From: "Steven R. Garman" Subject: WANTED - Optical Shaft Encoders for Telescope Newsgroups: sci.optics,sci.astro,sci.space [Also posted in misc.forsale.wanted,misc.wanted,ne.wanted,ny.wanted,nj.wanted] WANTED: Optical Shaft Encoders Quantity 2 Single-ended Incremental Needed to encode the movements of a 16" Cassegrain telescope. The telescope is in the observatory of the Univ. of Mass. at Boston. The project is being managed by Mr. George Tucker, a graduate student at UMB. Please call him, or email/call me, if you have one or two of the specified type of encoder. Of course, due to our low funding level we are looking for a price that is sufficiently lower than that given for new encoders. :) George Tucker 617-965-3408 ME: -- sugarman@cs.umb.edu | 6172876077 univ | 6177313637 home | Standard Disclaimer Boston Massachusetts USA ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 469 ------------------------------