Date: Sun, 16 May 93 05:00:03 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #576 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Sun, 16 May 93 Volume 16 : Issue 576 Today's Topics: ** Dance of the planets program ** ** MegaStar program ** Another SF Irritation RELIEVED! Doctor Who vindicated. DC-X Publicity (3 msgs) HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days Interesting DC-X cost anecdote Life on Earth (or elsewhere :-) Life on Mars. looking for PLANET MAPS Near Miss Asteroids Over zealous shuttle critics SDIO kaput! Shuttle vs Delta Clipper Soyuz and Shuttle Comparisons Vandenberg launches? (2 msgs) White Sands & DC-X Who is Henry Spencer anyway? (3 msgs) Why we like DC-X (was Re: Shuttle 0-Defects & Bizarre? DC-X?) Yoo hoo, White Sands? (was Re: DC-X Status?) (2 msgs) Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 May 1993 15:04:21 GMT From: Frank ROUSSEL Subject: ** Dance of the planets program ** Newsgroups: sci.space Is anybody know where the 'Dance of the planets' program is available ? Is it a Freeware or Shareware or Commercial product ? Thanks in advance --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______ _______ ________ | Firstname: Frank /______/| /______/\ /_______/| | Lastname : ROUSSEL / ______|/ / ____ \/| |__ __|/ | E-mail: rousself@univ-rennes1.fr / /| | |____| |/ | || | Telephone: + 33 99 83 26 10 | || | __ __/ | || | | |\______ | || \ \\ __| ||__ | Address: 175, rue Belle Epine \ \______/| | || \ \\ /__| |/_/| | CityStateZip: 35510 \_______|/ |_|/ \_\| |_______|/ | Cityname: CESSON SEVIGNE Centre de Ressources Informatiques | Country: FRANCE --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Science without conscience is only soul's ruin (Rabelais) ------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Signed: The responsible of ASTROGOF project at Rennes' University of France - - who contributes to the development of CRI-CICB Gopher's server (ASTRO images) - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1993 15:03:13 GMT From: Frank ROUSSEL Subject: ** MegaStar program ** Newsgroups: sci.space Is anybody know where the 'MegaStar' program is available ? Is it a Freeware or Shareware or Commercial product ? Thanks in advance --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______ _______ ________ | Firstname: Frank /______/| /______/\ /_______/| | Lastname : ROUSSEL / ______|/ / ____ \/| |__ __|/ | E-mail: rousself@univ-rennes1.fr / /| | |____| |/ | || | Telephone: + 33 99 83 26 10 | || | __ __/ | || | | |\______ | || \ \\ __| ||__ | Address: 175, rue Belle Epine \ \______/| | || \ \\ /__| |/_/| | CityStateZip: 35510 \_______|/ |_|/ \_\| |_______|/ | Cityname: CESSON SEVIGNE Centre de Ressources Informatiques | Country: FRANCE --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Science without conscience is only soul's ruin (Rabelais) ------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Signed: The responsible of ASTROGOF project at Rennes' University of France - - who contributes to the development of CRI-CICB Gopher's server (ASTRO images) - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 93 18:38:46 GMT From: "Thomas A. Baker" Subject: Another SF Irritation RELIEVED! Doctor Who vindicated. Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.space In article schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher) writes: >This "reverse the polarity!" crap always bugged the hell out of me, too, >until I found an actual, live, real-life example of it working! I quote >from Aviation Week and Space Technology for 2 July 1990, page 25: > > He [Colonel Charles F. Stirling, speaking of the problem of > fuel bubble formation in Titan 4 Aerojet LR87 engines] said > engineers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory had run into > the same problem and suggested that the Air Force look at the > effect of Aerozene 50 decomposition. The fix, now flown three > times without incident, was to reverse the inlet and outlet > portions of the hot gas cooler. > >! Once again, life imitates art. How about the discussion of the STS Tether experiment. Ran forward, it would suck energy from the Earth's magnetic field, while trivially slowing the Shuttle. It could also have run backward -- if they ran electricity through the tether the other way, it would have trivially propelled the Shuttle faster. But an even better example comes to mind. There's this electronics guy, someone like Craig Anderton or Don Lancaster. Ten years ago he wrote about an invention of his. He could take a light-detector, run current through it at about a hundred times its rating, and it would glow. He got legal rights to this design of a combination "fiber optic emitter/receiver". This turned out to be the basic unit of ATT's (I think) plan to bring Brazil's communications system into the 21st century. (The article was mostly about his legal wranglings with the company that eventually got him well-compensated for his invention.) tombaker (yes that's my real name) (My employer's opinion's are not my own.) (I am self-employed) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 93 15:05:47 EET From: flb@flb.optiplan.fi (F.Baube[tm]) Subject: DC-X Publicity Here's the only publicity DC-X will ever need to get it into the public's consciousness: Have made a full-size inflatable replica to fly in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade !! -- * Fred Baube (tm) * "Government had broken down. I found the * baube@optiplan.fi * experience invigorating." -- Maurice Grimaud, * #include * Paris prefect of police in May 1968 ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1993 22:26:00 -0400 From: Pat Subject: DC-X Publicity Newsgroups: sci.space No. Do this. Have the DC-X1, make an unscheduled landing at teh 50 yard line during the halftime show of This years Superbowl. ABC will have more reporters there for that, then at any news event. pat ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1993 22:27:02 -0400 From: Pat Subject: DC-X Publicity Newsgroups: sci.space Even better. Make up pete conrad in a Martian Suit, and have him get ou;t and throw a football to the refs. ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1993 10:59:10 -0400 From: Pat Subject: HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.space.shuttle,sci.astro In article <1993May14.163044.1@stsci.edu> dempsey@stsci.edu writes: >This is a real world too. You can't do science like this with out doing >politics as well, unfortunately. Good PR keep the $$ coming in. > "Do you know what makes rocket ships fly? Funding, makes them fly. No Bucks, No Buck Rogers" :-) >> Staplers cost money. information does not constitute >> mis allocation of government resources. >it sure can. If the 'research' does not follow its charter or is used >for someone's personal gain it is misuse. period. Bob, I think you are missing the point. If an agency has gathered some data on something. and once tax dollars have been spent, the data is now Property of the people of the US government. The government may charge to recover some of the cost, or they may charge to maintain the data, but they cannot claim the data is proprietary, unless it is classified national security data. I live down the road from NIH. THey run studies all the time. I can go into their library and photocoppy all the raw data from any study thev'e done. Just bring a roll of quarters. I'm not saying you guys don't have internal rules, but they are not supported by US law. pat ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1993 22:23:34 -0400 From: Pat Subject: Interesting DC-X cost anecdote Newsgroups: sci.space That's assuming it could get built by them. Of course, it would probably sport Cruise missile Racks, Sidewinder Missile tubes, Bomb Points, extra drop tanks, a Full ECM suite, Terrain following radar and stealth materials. IT might not fly, but a technology demonstrator does not require actual flight. :-) pat ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 93 00:47:54 GMT From: Chris Colby Subject: Life on Earth (or elsewhere :-) Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.origins In article <1993May13.212559.19618@julian.uwo.ca> jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes: >In article 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom) writes: > What evidence is there that there is a trend towards greater >species diversity over time? What I see going on right now is a major >extinction event, and it isn't clear to me that the diversity 10K years >ago was necessarily greater than 600 million years ago. Well, there are several bursts in species diversity I can think of. The Cambrian and Ordovician explosions resulted in a vast increase in animal diversity. Likewise, after the one-two punch of the Permian and Triassic extinctions, the number of marine animals rose steadily (**) to an all-time high (*) just prior to the spread of humans. (**) biggest exception being the K/T (bye bye dinos) extinction (*) about 800 families Also, plants arose from green algae and colonized the land in succesive sweeps. Mosses colonized very wet environments first, ferns (who had evolved vascular tissues) took over more territory when they evolved (1). These were eventually (mostly) replaced by gymnosperms (pines and the like) (2) and then (mostly) displaced by angiosperms (flowering plants -- now the dominant plant group on the planet(3). Fungi also radiated greatly with the invasion of the land. (1) around the carboniferous (up to about 200 families) (2) around the triassic (up to maybe 250 families) (3) starting in the cretaceous (rising to about 600 families currently) It's unclear (to me at least) what the max equilibrium number of species the earth can hold (***) and if it has ever hit this in the past. It could be (warning: speculation alert) that diversity has never reached a peak because mass extinctions happen often enough to keep the total number down. (***) This would depend a great deal on how fragmented specific ecosystems were. See Cowen's book "History of Life" for a not-too-technical run-down on, well, like the title sez, the history of life. Or see, Wilson's "Diversity of Life" for a view centered more on current ecology -- this is (IMHO) the best popular biology book of (what the hell, I'll say it) all time. > James Nicoll Follow-ups to t.o. Chris Colby --- email: colby@bu-bio.bu.edu --- "'My boy,' he said, 'you are descended from a long line of determined, resourceful, microscopic tadpoles--champions every one.'" --Kurt Vonnegut from "Galapagos" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1993 11:13:37 GMT From: Paul Dietz Subject: Life on Mars. Newsgroups: sci.space In article jmck@norge.Eng.Sun.COM (John McKernan) writes: > Some new information has been discovered recently. Microscopic fossils > have been found in VERY old rocks. The theory is that this life is so > old that it must have been destroyed during the periodic intense > meteorite bombardments that were a feature of the early solar system. > Under this theory life originated on Earth multiple times (between > multiple meteorite bombardments), and therefore the conditions for > the creation of life cannot be that unlikely. This was all badly reported in the news. There is no evidence that signs of life found in old rock predate putative planet-sterilizing events. Rather, the argument was that if life arose shortly the last sterilizing event, then it must be easily formed. The *inference* was that life originated before and was destroyed, but there was no evidence of that. However, even this argument is flawed. It could well be that origin of life requires specific conditions (say, a certain composition of the atmosphere) that do not last for long. So, perhaps life formed early only because it would have had no other chance to do so, not because it was likely that life would originate under those conditions. Paul F. Dietz dietz@cs.rochester.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1993 08:10:08 GMT From: Dick Wilmot Subject: looking for PLANET MAPS Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes: >tel002@dunix.drake.edu (Tim "Spock" Larson) writes: >> Where can I get topographical maps of Mars, Venus, other terrestrial >>bodies? >I still use the old National Geographic maps from the Apollo and Viking eras. >The other people to ask would be the US Geological Survey. They have maps of >just about everything. Unfortunately, I do not have their address. There is an office on the middle left US coast on Middlefield Road in Menlo Park, CA (415) 329-4390 >-- >Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu > "Find a way or make one." > -attributed to Hannibal -- Dick Wilmot Editor, Independent RAID Report (510) 938-7425 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 93 18:04 GMT From: THE ARTSTONE COLLECTIVE <0004651657@mcimail.com> Subject: Near Miss Asteroids If by chance you answered my request for NEO Asteroids in the last two days please send them to me directly. I by mistake deleted instead of read all the space-request messages . Thanks and sorry. Harry G. Osoff Science & Technology Editor Access News Network jukebox@mcimail.com ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1993 08:42:05 -0400 From: Matthew DeLuca Subject: Over zealous shuttle critics Newsgroups: sci.space In article pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) writes: >prb@access.digex.net (Pat) writes: >> the shuttle reminds me of Brunels Boat. >> what was it, the"great western"??? the one >> that bankrupted him, and broke his health. >I don't remember the name of said boat, but it eventually went >on to do great things; it laid the first transatlantic cable, for >instance. >Doesn't remind me of the shuttle at all. Everyone said the boat (I'm fairly sure it was the Great Northern) was a complete waste as well, but it had it's virtues. Likewise, when the shuttles are long dead and gone I'm fairly certain they will be considered a major step forward in manned spaceflight. Sure, they're expensive, less than amazingly reliable, and they don't live up to their original promises, but fifty years from now those won't be the criteria by which they are judged. -- Matthew DeLuca Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!matthew Internet: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1993 15:27:50 GMT From: James Davis Nicoll Subject: SDIO kaput! Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993May15.001826.19663@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> sbooth@lonestar.utsa.edu (Simon E. Booth) writes: > >Liberals just don't like technology. > >Liberals would rather waste tax money on social programs. I for one think >our space program would go a long way if the welfare system wasn't sucking >money away from it, stunting our technological development.> Funny, I don't generally hear Richard Nixon called a liberal, but I guess he must be on this scale. Can anyone remember under which President NASA had peak funding 1960-1975? Seems kinda pinko-leftist to rely on the State to fund space exploration. Some people might call it 'wefare for engineers.' Isn't that just like a leftist to assume programs he likes should be forced on the general population, even though there doesn't appear to be a general desire for a Soviet style program. James Nicoll ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1993 08:34:42 -0400 From: Matthew DeLuca Subject: Shuttle vs Delta Clipper Newsgroups: sci.space In article jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes: >khayash@hsc.usc.edu (Ken Hayashida) writes: >>[...] Doesn't it strike you as unusual to propose reversing the attitude of >>large rocket and ignite its engines while in the atmosphere? >A great many rockets light engines inside the atmosphere. Many of them also do >significant manuevering, albeit not quite this extreme. However, you shouldn't >be afraid of "unsual" techniques. Be afraid of bad ones. The landing profile >is going to be one of the hard parts of the DC-X program, but thats why you >build a test vehicle instead of the real thing. Official net prediction: twenty years from now, after it's been determined that 98.73% of all people toss their cookies during the DC-1's flip-up maneuver, we'll have Henry Spencer Jr. posting to the descendant of this newsgroup lamenting the days of the straightforward and simple Shuttle landing profile. :-) -- Matthew DeLuca Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!matthew Internet: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 93 18:27:35 GMT From: "Thomas A. Baker" Subject: Soyuz and Shuttle Comparisons Newsgroups: sci.space In article <511151978@ofa123.fidonet.org> David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org writes: >The most revealing comparison between Shuttle and Soyuz is cost. All >other comparisons are apples and oranges. > >--- Maximus 2.01wb I like this statement, though for my own reasons. Cost comparisons depend a lot on whether the two options are similar, and *then* it becomes very revealing to consider what their differences are. Can Soyuz launch the Long Exposure Facility? Course not. Will the Shuttle take my television relay to LEO by year's end? Almost certainly not, but the Russians are pretty good about making space accessible on a tight schedule. Comparing S and SS points up that there are TWO active space launcher-and-work-platform resources, with similarities and differences. Where they are in direct competition, we may get to see some market economics come into play. tombaker -------------------------------------- My employer's opinions are not my own. I am self-employed. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1993 21:09:27 GMT From: Paul Carroll Subject: Vandenberg launches? Newsgroups: sci.space I know about the phone numbers, etc. to get Kennedy/Canaveral launch information, but is there any equivalent way of finding out about launches at Vandenberg? I went to the COBE launch in '89, but I remember that as being just a special case where it was well-publicized beforehand. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks. Paul Carroll Microtec Research Inc. paulc@mri.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1993 22:23:12 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Vandenberg launches? Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993May15.210927.23846@mri.com> paulc@mri.com (Paul Carroll) writes: >I know about the phone numbers, etc. to get Kennedy/Canaveral >launch information, but is there any equivalent way of finding out >about launches at Vandenberg? Bear in mind that a lot of the Vandenberg launch traffic is military and at least semi-secret. They aren't interested in publicizing it beforehand. -- SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology between SVR3 and SunOS. - Dick Dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 93 20:01:48 MDT From: shoran@NMSU.Edu (Stephen Horan) Subject: White Sands & DC-X It is interesting to note in the past few days' correspondance that some believe that poor old New Mexico is not capable of hosting a commercial space launch business. For many reasons, it can, and we here on the front lines see no reason why it should not. The 'spaceport political publicity' referred to the other day had its intended effect - the state of New Mexico did establish the start of the necessary government infrastructure to back a commercial space port. The commanding general at WSMR is in full support of dual-use for the facilities. The WSMR location also has some strategic advantages in the form of necessary infrastructure and controlled air space to support the project. Just because the folks involved have not done the traditional aerospace-equivalent of vapor-ware by inviting folks out to kick non-existent tires but have been merely doing their job to prepare for launch, don't think that nothing has happened. From my interactions with the MACDAC folks, I get the impression that they want to set a firm, believable launch date based on vehicle readiness and not just some fiction to plug a space on a calendar. I believe that all will happen this summer and don't worry, the locals here are planning to let everyone know when it does occur. Stephen Horan shoran@nmsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1993 22:15:40 GMT From: "Phil G. Fraering" Subject: Who is Henry Spencer anyway? Newsgroups: sci.space Someone named Hansk asked about pictures. Well, there is an archive of portraits in xfaces format at ftp.uu.net. Henry Spencer's picture is there somewhere, along with several thousand others. I don't remember the path, though it should be easy to find. Remember, though, it seems to use both internet and uucp addresses. -- Phil Fraering |"Number one good faith! You convert, pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|you not tortured by demons!" - anon. Mahen missionary ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 1993 23:05:15 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Who is Henry Spencer anyway? Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993May15.014554.2850@aie.nl> hansk@aie.nl (Hans Kinwel) writes: >My god! You dare posting! I posed these very questions to Mr Spencer >some time ago by email. Unfortunately I never received any response. Apologies... Your mail is probably in the pile that arrived just before I got sick about a month ago... A reply will appear eventually... >Now, what I really would like to see is an interview with Mr Spencer. A >magazine (photograph!), or even better a tv program. (No! I want both!) So far, there have been none (unless you count an interview in The Amateur Computerist about the history of netnews, which may be disqualified because TAC's budget doesn't run to reproducing photos...). -- SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology between SVR3 and SunOS. - Dick Dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 02:36:41 GMT From: Mary Shafer Subject: Who is Henry Spencer anyway? Newsgroups: sci.space On Sat, 15 May 1993 01:45:54 GMT, hansk@aie.nl (Hans Kinwel) said: Hans> As somebody replied on whether the space shuttle is connected to Hans> Usenet: "No. Of course the main flow of information would be up, Hans> unless Henry Spencer would be aboard, in which case the main Hans> flow of information would be down." Gene Miya says that Henry will never go aloft in the Shuttle; the payload bay isn't big enough for his chocolate chip cookies. When Henry was here at Dryden, he was looking pretty covetously at the SR-71s and the F-104s, even though they don't have much cookie space. I guess he figured that he could manage for a short flight.... -- Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all." Unknown US fighter pilot ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1993 22:31:20 -0400 From: Pat Subject: Why we like DC-X (was Re: Shuttle 0-Defects & Bizarre? DC-X?) Newsgroups: sci.space In article henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >(However, I do agree with Richard that if you're planning short missions, >it may not be worth the trouble of providing anything more than a urine- >disposal rig and a few baggies.) I don't know about C-5's, but on C-130's which are regularly used for Medium haul Personnel transport by the Army, only have a funnel and a garden hose in the aft. The female personnel hate long trips in the box cars. pat ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1993 11:07:15 -0400 From: Pat Subject: Yoo hoo, White Sands? (was Re: DC-X Status?) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993May14.205845.16439@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> sbooth@lonestar.utsa.edu (Simon E. Booth) writes: >In the desert they wouldn't have the problems with high humidity that occur >at coastal launch facilities. I mean, humidity plus cryogenic fuels adds >up to major ice problems. > IT seems to not ba a najor problem at KSC or vandenburg. Water is nice for spaceports. if it crashes, no-one lives on water, much. >Plus the weather would be much more predictable, and range safety would >be IMHO the same or even easier for a desert launch area. > I don't think so. WSMC is pretty empty, but people who live in the sierra further out. are in some risk. Until a DC-1 is fully proved out, water is a little less dense. in terms of population. Once the Clipper gets running, they want to land them at conventional airports. >In the event of a accident with a manned DC-vehicle (god forbid) an ejecting >crew wouldn't have to contend with the added hazard of landing in the water, >and it would definitely make recovering debris easier for the accident >investigation. > My understanding is that for ejection seats, water is better for landing in. you needa life vest, but no hard impact on landing. pat ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1993 11:28:22 -0400 From: Matthew DeLuca Subject: Yoo hoo, White Sands? (was Re: DC-X Status?) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1t30v3$ab@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.net (Pat) writes: >IT [ice] seems to not ba a najor problem at KSC or vandenburg. Major problem, no, but icing is always a concern with cryogenics. It is something that needs to be watched, and if you can reduce the problem by flying in the desert you might as well. >Once the Clipper gets running, they want to land them at conventional >airports. It's a bit early to be thinking about that, and it may make better sense to have separate spaceports and airports anyway. One possible problem with regular rocket flights out of airports is that of air traffic control; at a congested airport like O'Hare or Kennedy or Atlanta, it could be difficult to come up with a clear vertical launch corridor. Then, of course, you've got the problem of coming back down in an abort condition...I'm not sure we could do it all safely with our current ATC setup, and the costs of the upgrades and changes needed might not be worth the expense without a *really* high flight rate. -- Matthew DeLuca Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!matthew Internet: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 576 ------------------------------