Date: Sat, 22 May 93 05:00:13 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #608 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Sat, 22 May 93 Volume 16 : Issue 608 Today's Topics: Impediments to NASA productivity (2 msgs) murder in space R101 (2 msgs) Russian Mars Rover Telepresence Test - 05/21/93 Satellite Capabilities-Patriot Games (2 msgs) Soyuz and Shuttle Comparisons (3 msgs) Space Marketing would be wonderfull. The Oregon Trail WANTED: Book on navigation. Why Government? Re: Shuttle, "Centoxin" (3 msgs) Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 13:02:19 GMT From: fred j mccall 575-3539 Subject: Impediments to NASA productivity Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space In <1tg9sf$dlj@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.net (Pat) writes: >In article <1993May20.143321.16393@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov writes: >>out of work," are all phrases which come to mind. Every time a change >>is proposed, our NASA culture has taught us to shoot holes in it, >>inventing reasons why the change will not work. (For numerous >Gee, I wonder if mccall@dseg.ti.com is really a sendmail alias >for mccall@hq.nasa.gov? Gee, I wonder what this is supposed to have to do with the rest of the post? Must be another one of those little snipes^H^H^H^H^H^Hjokes from 'Pat'. Yeah, I'm *real* impressed . . . -- "Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 93 09:07:41 PDT From: jim@pnet01.cts.com (Jim Bowery) Subject: Impediments to NASA productivity The single most important impediment to NASA producitivity is the systemic violation of the intent of the Hatch Act of 1939 that pervades all sectors of our our government, not just NASA. All of the most damaging problems that seem NASA-specific have their roots in this central theme. For those who don't know about The Hatch Act's intent: It was set up, in the wake of the New Deal programs, as a way of breaking a positive feedback loop of corruption in government via taxpayer funds being increasingly diverted to political activities. The cold war (the military industrial complex) and the Great Society (and the welfare bureacracy it created) have found it is actually more efficient to buy political support by using their funds to create incentives for such support outside of their civil servant bureaucracies, ie: contractors and benefit recipients respectively (although the welfare bureacracy itself is relatively large compared to most). This is the real cause of the takeover of government by "special interest lobbyists". NASA is (and indeed must be) right up there with the rest of them -- even with its own internal people flying to Washington to lobby aggressively. (BTW: Given my history of "hate speech" against NASA, many may find it surprising that I appear to be a NASA apologist here. My ethics don't prevent me from being, or allowing others to be, competitive. They just prevent me, and would prevent others, from winning cut- throat competition and then taking no responsibility for changing the rules that make for street brawls and select winners based on all the wrong characteristics. NASA has shown no such ethical integrity, and is therefore worthy of contempt -- all the more so since if NASA didn't exist at all, it would not be capable of suppressing competition as it has been doing in proportion to its funding since the mid to late 60's.) The importance of technical merit becomes disappearingly small in a ballooning system of political feedback which, in evolutionary terms, selects for the political expert over the technical expert -- against positive-sum and for negative-sum gamesmanship. An immensely damaging consequence of this, specific to civilian technology agencies such as NASA, is that being a supposedly technical organization, the people at the top are quite threatened by the technical experts they displace through political means, since hard technical results are more difficult to "argue away" when you are wrong, than "softer" results in other parts of government. Being proven wrong in the public eye COMPARED TO YOUR COMPETITORS is political death. That is why substantive competition must be suppressed, at all costs, so that technical disasters, like the Challenger, can be argued away as "doing the best at a really hard job that NO ONE could do any better -- just give us more money next and less pressure next time." Let's trace NASA's problem from "the top", in the House SubCommittee for appropriations for HUD and Independent Agencies: People frequently complain that NASA shouldn't be grouped with welfare bureaucracies in the appropriations process. The actual reason this is damaging to NASA is because all of these agencies are allowed to, and therefore must, violate the intent of the Hatch Act of 1939 in order to remain competitive in the appropriations process. The specific grouping doesn't matter as a first order cause. The sense in which NASA is at a special disadvantage in the HUD subcommittee is that is must pay more for its supporters than typical welfare bureaucracies. An engineer in a defense contractor costs more than a typical welfare queen, so he isn't as efficient a way to buy support. Also, (and this is causally related to the previous fact) welfare bureaucracies don't really have to DO much of anything for which they can be held accountable by the public. Vague assertions that HUD is doing some good, for example (perhaps buttressed by government-funded social studies), are easy and cheap to defend to political standards of acceptability. NASA has the possibility of failing in its missions in ways that are relatively obvious to the public, on the rare occasions it must attempt to fly missions. (DoD is even more inherently accountable since so many of its people could actually die if they don't do their jobs with a modicum of competence.) In this respect, NASA could probably get more money if it were placed in more direct political competition with DoD since the military industrial complex does, ultimately, have to pay more attention to actual performance than civilian technology agencies do. But this would only make NASA's performance worse since it would give it more money without changing the incentives that reward and therefore select for political over technical merit. Given that NASA must achieve political excellence while avoiding actual tests of its technical abilities as much as possible, the behaviors rewarded in NASA are the following (all are highly correlated): * Maximize the number of congressional districts included in any single mission/project. * Use the existing political expertise to suppress competition which would be politically embarrassing. * Minimize the number of missions/projects. * Minimize the number of alternate routes for obtaining funding. * Minimize the amount of freedom of technical exploration, ensuring that all technology projects are directly attributable to one of the few large programs and are unlikely to alter the technical tradeoffs in such a way as to disrupt political deals with contractors in various congressional districts. * Maximize the duration of single missions/projects. * Maximize funding per mission/project. * Minimize the clarity with which mission/project objectives are specified. Over 20 years of such incentives have produced the NASA of today with its terminal symptoms of bureaucratic cancer and technical incompetence. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 09:40:38 GMT From: Alan Carter Subject: murder in space Newsgroups: sci.space In article , henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: |> >Wouldn't Discovery (with nobody on board besides HAL, a computer) be an |> >abandoned vessel which anybody could pick up for its scrap value? |> |> As I recall, space law differs from sea law in this area. The country |> that launches it, owns it until reentry or doomsday. |> |> This is a stupid approach, and it will probably end up being changed |> eventually (especially with the USSR no longer around as the champion |> of state-owned everything), but right now it's still in effect. I wouldn't want anyone salvaging my comsat or trying to classify my mothballed construction shack as a derelict. How do we distinguish? Alan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1 Belle Vue Court |"We've entered a synchronous | Home: 0684 564438 32 Belle Vue Terrace | orbit above the southern | Away: 0628 784351 Great Malvern | pole." | Work: 0628 794137 Worcestershire | | WR14 4PZ | Lt. Commander Geordi LaForge | Temporary: agc@bnr.ca England | Star Trek The Next Generation| Permanent: alan@gid.co.uk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 12:03:14 GMT From: Del Cotter Subject: R101 Newsgroups: sci.space <1tgtp4$n3h@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ptd2@po.CWRU.Edu (Palmer T. Davis) writes: >In fact, that's how R101 wound up with diesel engines. The design team >had originally planned to use them, and several articles were published >lauding their improved safety. When it was discovered that the diesels >were too heavy, the design team tried to switch to the Rolls-Royce gasoline >engines that the Vickers team was using on the R100, the Air Ministry >squashed the idea. Consequently, the R101 wound up with a total usable >lift of less than 35 tons, versus 57 on the R100.... Then there was the extra engine whose *only* purpose was to provide reverse thrust at the end of the journey... -- ',' ' ',',' | | ',' ' ',',' ', ,',' | Del Cotter mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk | ', ,',' ',' | | ',' ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1993 11:06:56 -0400 From: Pat Subject: R101 Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1tgnri$d58@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ptd2@po.CWRU.Edu (Palmer T. Davis) writes: > >trouble for months. By contrast, the Space Shuttle had been flying >successfully for almost five years with few indications of trouble. >(Granted, those that there were were ignored.) A better parallel for the >end of the R101 would be the voyage of RMS _Titanic_ a generation earlier. I don't think so. The shuttle SSME's have always been ectremely marginal. The nose gear was kinda weak, and had numerous ops problems until it was recently upgraded. The brakes were too weak, the new brakes and drogue chute fix that. The aft attach struts were too weak even by NASA standards. is that enough trouble points for you? pat ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1993 15:22 UT From: Ron Baalke Subject: Russian Mars Rover Telepresence Test - 05/21/93 Newsgroups: sci.space,alt.sci.planetary,comp.robotics Status report on Russian Mars rover telepresence test between Ames and Moscow: Dave Lavery, Headquarters Office of Advanced Concepts and Technology robotics program manager, reports that Ames conducted the first test on Wednesday afternoon of a remote virtual reality control system which is being tested to operate a prototype Mars rover located in Moscow. This first test involved establishing a computer connection from the control workstation located at Ames across the Internet to the CNES facility in Toulouse, France, and from there through a repeater to the IKI laboratory in Moscow. The first test was to drive the rover down a hallway in the laboratory. A scene description model (a computer representation of the physical conditions) of the hallway was downloaded from the Internet from Moscow to the workstation at Ames and was used to construct a virtual environment at Ames of the Moscow hallway. The computer environment was then used by the Ames operator to visually command the rover to drive down the length of the hallway. (of note: This same methodology was used in this past December's Dante robot experiment by operators from Carnegie Mellon University located at Goddard Space Flight Center to perform a robot control test of the Dante robot located on the rim of Mt. Erebus in the Antarctic. In this instance, though, the computer link was made through the TDRS satellite.) The only feedback to the Ames operator during the Mars Russian rover test was a set of numerical position sensor readings being displayed on the operator's computer workstation monitor. Video compression and transmission hardware and software will be installed on the rover next week to allow the Ames remote operator to view the actual operation of the rover as commands are sent over the Internet. Chas Redmond OACT PAO 5/21/93 ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | Never laugh at anyone's /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | dreams. |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 12:45:59 GMT From: fred j mccall 575-3539 Subject: Satellite Capabilities-Patriot Games Newsgroups: sci.space In <1993May21.101417.18065@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> dnadams@nyx.cs.du.edu (Dean Adams) writes: >Another question is whats the NEED for "live video" from space? The primary >job for these sats is to produce high resolution images (i.e. stills) of >areas for detailed analysis, to build up various maps and datasets, and to >be able to compare images of the same region from multiple satellite passes >in order to highlight any changes and such. None of these missions would >be particularly enhanced by "video"... Don't forget the desires of the politicos. Note that the big, fancy war room with all those fancy electronic maps doesn't particularly 'enhance the mission', either; in point of fact, when they don't have Congress or Executive staff (like the Prez or VP) in, the work takes place elsewhere. I would assume that real-time imaging at high frame rates would have a similar motivation -- because the 'amateurs' like to watch. [Since most of the real work is done by lots of people doing boring work with stereo lenses in back rooms, there's actually no need for 'real-time imagery' at all -- store and forward would be plenty good enough, since the time consumer is going to be the analysis on the ground, anyway.] -- "Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 14:49:36 GMT From: fred j mccall 575-3539 Subject: Satellite Capabilities-Patriot Games Newsgroups: sci.space In dion@netcom.com (Scott Smith) writes: >>words, are you asserting as fact that no such system exists? >[Live video assertations removed] >> >>[Note that I am *not* asserting the fact of the existence of such a >>system with a 30fps or similar frame rate. However, I can think of >>situations where such a system would be useful or desirable by people >>who could get allocation for funding of such a project and can think >>of no specific technological impossibilities involved in its creation. >>You may feel free to draw your own conclusions from there, however it >>seems a reasonably safe bet, unless you can come up with reasons why >>such a system would be impossible, that such a system exists.] >Live video as shown in Patriot Games most likely is possible. From a >satellite, improbable. Think about a satellite in low earth orbit, which >the US recon satellites supposedly orbit. Think about the period of said >orbit. How many minutes is the scene in Patriot Games last? Do you think >that the satellite could actually maintain pointing on that one spot for >that long without varying the resolution, etc.? Do you think that the >satellite is capable of those kinds of body rates to do this? Nobody said the picture would look like what you saw in the movie. We *know* that was faked. I'm curious, though. Have you computed the 'body rate' required of the satellite to see if it's so outrageous, or did you just take the linear velocity (high) and say, "Wow, that's a really big number -- it can't do that!" >The average period of a low earth orbit is around 90 minutes, with an >average velocity of 17,000 mph (give or take). Think about what kinds >of capability would be required to give live video with that kind of >resolution. I think that Real Time means that the image is collected >at the time that it is taken and not dropped off on some film cartridge >for later retrieval. Ok, let's think about what kinds of capability would be required. There are really only two numbers that are germane to this. Angular rate of change required of the satellite and height of orbit. These are, of course, interrelated, but I don't want to do a rigorous mathematical treatment -- just enough to show how easy it would be. First, the average angular rotation rate required of the satellite to keep a specific point on the surface of the earth in view. Since you give the average period at around 90 minutes, that says that the satellite must be capable of 360/5400 degrees of slew per second, if we assume that the surface of the Earth is stationary (it's not, but more on that later). That gives a rough average of about seven hudredths of a degree per second. Now, this does not seem to me to be a hideously difficult rate of slew. Note that the required slew rate will be lower than this when the satellite is low on the horizon with respect to the target and higher when it is overhead, but even so, these do not seem all that difficult to sustain. Of course, there is also some 'side to side' slew necessary, since the Earth is spinning at right angles to the path of flight of the satellite (we usually put these things in polar orbit), but once again, that is a predictable (and not particularly large) number. In any case, the actual slew rates required at any given time (as well as the changes in distance from the imaged site) are going to be dependent upon the altitude of the satellite -- several hundred miles. If you treat the Earth as approximately flat when the satellite is overhead and work out the vectors, you get a rate of change for the angle when overhead of about 15 degrees a second, which is somewhat high but not all that outrageous. However, the rate of change of that rate of change is rather high when directly overhead, which seems to lead to the conclusion that they would not image in that mode when directly overhead, but rather from slightly further down on the horizon after the required angular acceleration needed to keep the site in view has dropped significantly. The conclusion seems obvious. If you can do single images of a quite specific spot on the surface of the Earth, you can also do 30 frames per second imaging. -- "Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 93 12:06:37 GMT From: George Hastings Subject: Soyuz and Shuttle Comparisons Newsgroups: sci.space > >The most revealing comparison between Shuttle and Soyuz is cost. All > >other comparisons are apples and oranges. > > I like this statement, though for my own reasons. Cost comparisons depend > a lot on whether the two options are similar, and *then* it becomes very > revealing to consider what their differences are. Can Soyuz launch the > Long Exposure Facility? Course not. Will the Shuttle take my television > relay to LEO by year's end? Almost certainly not, but the Russians are > pretty good about making space accessible on a tight schedule. This whole thread of discussion is really analagous to comparing apples and oranges! Shuttles and the Soyuz-TM both carry people. The Soyuz-TM has carried VERY small payloads to MIR which were launched directly from one of the scintific airlock ports of the space station, but the Soyuz-TM really doesn't LAUNCH anything. The Soyuz-TM spacecraft is lifted into orbit by PROTON, which has some fairly impressive heavy-lift capabilities. The PROTON was used to loft the MIR main core module, which weighed 21 tons, the KVANT 1, KVANT 2, and KRISTAL modules into orbit. Here are the specs: First Stage Engine RD-253 Propellants Nitrogen Tetroxide/UDMH Thrust 167 tons Burn time 130 seconds Specific Impulse 316 seconds Length 20.2 Meters Diameter 7.4 Meters Dry Mass 43.4 tons Propellant Mass 412.2 tons Second Stage Engine Kosberg Bureau Propellants Nitrogen Tetroxide/UDMH Thrust 240 tons Burn time 208 seconds Specific Impulse 333 seconds Length 13.7 Meters Diameter 4.15 Meters Dry Mass 13.2 tons Propellant Mass 152.4 tons Third Stage Engine Kosberg Bureau Propellants Nitrogen Tetroxide/UDMH Thrust 64 tons Burn Time 254 seconds Specific Impulse 344 seconds Length 6.4 Meters Diameter 4.15 Meters Dry Mass 5.6 Tons Propellant Mass 47.5 Tons Payload Mass 21 Tons Shroud Mass 3 Tons Total Launch Mass 698 Tons Total Launch Vehicle Langth 59.8 Meters ____________________________________________________________ | George Hastings ghasting@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu | | Space Science Teacher 72407.22@compuserve.com | If it's not | Mathematics & Science Center STAREACH BBS: 804-343-6533 | FUN, it's | 2304 Hartman Street OFFICE: 804-343-6525 | probably not | Richmond, VA 23223 FAX: 804-343-6529 | SCIENCE! ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 93 10:28:05 EDT From: Chris Jones Subject: Soyuz and Shuttle Comparisons Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993May21.120637.29227@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu>, ghasting@vdoe386 (George Hastings) writes: > The Soyuz-TM spacecraft is lifted into orbit by PROTON, which >has some fairly impressive heavy-lift capabilities. The Proton would certainly be overkill for the Soyuz TM. All Soyuzes (Soyuzi?) have been launched by (suprise) Soyuz boosters (a/k/a SL-4, a/k/a A-2). -- Chris Jones clj@ksr.com ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1993 16:43:47 GMT From: Pawel Moskalik Subject: Soyuz and Shuttle Comparisons Newsgroups: sci.space >> This whole thread of discussion is really analagous to >> comparing apples and oranges! Shuttles and the Soyuz-TM both >> carry people. The Soyuz-TM has carried VERY small payloads to Yes and now. Shuttle is the only US manned spacecraft and Soyuz is the only Russian manned spacecraft. Thus, comparing their manned operations makes sence. Of course, Soyuz does not stand on its own, it is a part of a system including MIR space station. So we should rather comapre Mir/Soyuz with Shuttle. Comparing cargo capabilities of shuttle and Soyuz spacecraft does not make sense (Soyuz spacecraft is not designed for cargo operations). Here the Shuttle should be compared against TITAN or Russian PROTON launcher. >> The Soyuz-TM spacecraft is lifted into orbit by PROTON, which >> has some fairly impressive heavy-lift capabilities. The PROTON No !! Soyuz SPACECRAFT is launch by a Soyuz ROCKET. Why would anybody use a 21ton-capable PROTON rocket to launch 6.5ton Soyuz spacecraft ????? The name SOYUZ is used for two different things. First, there is a Soyuz SPACECRAFT. It is a manned spacecraft for 3 people. It carries no cargo. Currently used version is called Soyuz-TM. Second, there is a Soyuz ROCKET. It is a three-stage rocket with a cargo capability of about 7tons to LEO. It is used to launch Soyuz spacecraft, but it also launches about 30-40 other payloads every year. It has also a four-stage version sometimes called Molniya. This is by far the most used space launcher in history. According to Flight Internationsl Launcher Directory, Soyuz/Molnia has been launched 1260 times (as of Apr 93) with 16 failures reported. Pawel Moskalik ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 14:35:44 GMT From: Nick Haines Subject: Space Marketing would be wonderfull. Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space,rec.backcountry A few years back [86? 87?], a company in Cambridge (England) making high-power lasers had an employee who was arrested by a foreign government after a demonstration of their lasers went badly wrong (I think I'm remembering that right). In order to draw attention to the case, the company took a bunch of their lasers and waved them about the sky every night for quite a while (months). OK, they weren't nearly as bright as the full moon, but a lot of people never even noticed them. Nick Haines nickh@cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 93 09:59:30 PDT From: jim@pnet01.cts.com (Jim Bowery) Subject: The Oregon Trail Pat writes: >Ken proposes in essence implementation of Performance >based budgeting systems, wherein, budget requests >are tied to previous performance. > >It's very messy. I like it myself, but it's not as easy as >you think. The launch pressure from missing reagans state of the >union speech, contributed to the loss of 51-L. What makes you >think that a loss of direct budget due to a slipped deadline won't >make things worse? Yeah, sort of like not giving a junkie or alcoholic or smoker his substance of abuse makes things worse for awhile. Do you have any idea how many people died on the Oregon Trail? ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1993 12:49:21 GMT From: Bill Williams Subject: WANTED: Book on navigation. Newsgroups: alt.books.technical,aus.aviation,aus.wanted,rec.boats,rec.travel,sci.astro,sci.space In article <1thin8$b7k@gnpdev1.pad.otc.com.au> Johnathon Goldstein, goldstej@nms.otc.com.au writes: > Can someone please recommend a book that will teach me all I need > to know about navigation? :-) The American Practical Navigator ("Bowditch") published in two volumes by my very own United States Government. :-) ___________________________________ William E. Williams, bwilliam@oyster.smcm.edu Divison of Natural Sciences and Mathematics St. Mary's College of Maryland St. Mary's City, MD 20686 ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1993 11:00:08 -0400 From: Pat Subject: Why Government? Re: Shuttle, "Centoxin" Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space Doug comments on how the japanese and germans didn't have to pay for a defense. True. But each had even larger difficulties to overcome. Post war, the european and asian economies were pathetic. THey needed to build products and support R&D on economies 1/10th ours. New Zealand, Australia, and the Philippines did not pay for their defense either, but their economies are in the S***TEr. Obviously free defense is not the only thing. France Paid most of their own defense costs. They lost wars in both algeria and Vietnam, and underwrote a world class nuclear and space program. Their economy is quite fine. Obviously paying for defense is not the only thing. THe germans and japanese companies invested smart, played the long game and didn't over pay their CEO's. WE helped them, sure, the same way the government helps you go to school. But once you graduate your on your own. pat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 15:33:30 GMT From: fred j mccall 575-3539 Subject: Why Government? Re: Shuttle, "Centoxin" Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space In tbrent@bank.ecn.purdue.edu (Timothy J Brent) writes: >In article <1tghgs$e6@nml1sun.hsc.usc.edu> khayash@nml1sun.hsc.usc.edu (Ken Hayashida) writes: > >>Jim, do you want tens of thousands of people on welfare? You and >>other liberal democrats want to cut defense spending, kill our nation's >>greatest assets in science and technology, put hundreds of thousands >>of skilled engineers + blue collar guys on the assembly lines out of >>work, and then tax us more. Get a damn clue. I am so sick and tired >>of this blantly false rhetoric about how bad the shuttle program is. >Boy, this guys a textbook example of how the Republicans were allowed >to screw us for the past decade or so (not that the Democrats will >likely be any better). Why don't you try to take a more objective view >of the situation. Well, I have to agree that Ken's remarks were just a little beyond logic, but I'm afraid I don't find yours much more accurate. >Sure defense spending promotes new technologies but so do the national >labs. Sure they put people to work but they don't really earn us any >thing. It's a kind of welfare in itself as it keeps people employed >yet does nothing to even out the trade deficit with other nations. Uh, don't look now, but we sure seem to do a lot of business selling weapons systems to other countries. You might also want to examine the trade deficit with regard to Europe. You'll find we sell them a lot more than they sell us and that part of what we sell them is things like F-16 fighters, radar sets, etc. So we see that Ken is pro-Defense and you are basically anti-Defense, and neither one of you is really looking at the objective picture. [Don't rely on my being 100% objective, either, although I try to be. After all, I build weapons, so I do have some interest in our policies in that area.] -- "Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 15:37:00 GMT From: fred j mccall 575-3539 Subject: Why Government? Re: Shuttle, "Centoxin" Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space In <1tgs6bINNut@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney) writes: >In article , tbrent@bank.ecn.purdue.edu (Timothy J Brent) writes: >> Does it bother you that the >>first commercial maglev in the world will operate in the US but be >>of German origin? >If the Germans had carried their fair share of defense before the fall of the >Soviet Union, they wouldn't be building maglevs for us, but that's a whole >'nother story. Excuse me? The Germans had (and probably still have) the largest military force in Europe, not to mention that we were going to get to fight on *their* homes (and not ours). If you want to grouse about someone not paying 'their fair share', talk to the French or the Japanese. -- "Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 608 ------------------------------