========================================================================= (C) 1993 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 3 Sun Oct 25, 1992 ORA.TECH at 20:11 EST Sub: Diamond Edge Disk Diagnostics, Repair, Optimization, Data Recovery 209 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 1 Sat Apr 24, 1993 J.COYLE3 [JAMIE] at 01:40 EDT Something extremely weird happened today. Before I did a backup, I installed Diamond Mirror for the first time. I then did the backup and went away for awhile. When I returned, an entire folder with a number of subfolders within it completely disappeared! I restored from my backup, went to use another application, and when I returned to use the folder which had earlier disappeared, all the files had disappeared again! I went to the Undelete part of Edge, fiddled around with it, (although the files I had lost were not reported deleted), left Diamond Edge, and the disappeared files appeared again! I attributed the problem to Diamond Mirror only because adding it to my AUTO folder was the only change I had made to the structure of my hard disk. I thought perhaps the problem my have been the magnetic media, but I surmised if that were so, the files would have disappeared altogether, and never would have returned. I've deleted Diamond Mirror now...any idea what happened? It's about the weirdest thing that's ever happened to me here. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 2 Sat Apr 24, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 12:25 EDT JAMIE: I don't use Diamond Mirror and I have had the exact same thing happen. My AUTO, UTILS, and NEODESK3 folders disappeared. And EDGE said I had 3606 (around 3.3 MEGS!) lost clusters! If anyone needs full details of what happened to me I could post the full details and how I solved (or didn't) the situation. For some reason I have major problems if I don't reboot a lot before running other programs. Don't know why. My problem (but I still don't believe fully) was my data diet .INF file in my auto folder was corrupted. If you use data diet, then check that out. Which of course by the time my AUTO folder disappeared I was REALLY in trouble, since data diet is in my AUTO folder and my stuff on my HD is data dieted. I still have notes on what happened, just never got around to posting. Lastly, I want to mention that ICD's CLEANUP and Edge can say different things at times. I have had it (a couple times) where CLEANUP finds my HD fine, but EDGE tells me that my FAT1<>FAT2. Major problem if true, but CLEANUP didn't fidn anything wrong with my FAT tables. Any ideas? Also, make sure you turn off you HD cache. Don'y know if that can cause problems, but it appears (to me) it could. Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 3 Mon Apr 26, 1993 J.COYLE3 [JAMIE] at 00:52 EDT Todd- Before I had the aforementioned problem, Edge told me I had around 90 lost clusters, but on a different partition from the one on which the vanishing files reside. I'm not using data diet, or any cacheing device, but I am beginning to suspect the conflict may lie with Neodesk! The Mirror program was doing its thing before Neodesk loaded, and I have a hunch that may be where the problem lies. Presumeably, Bob will answer this question shortly. Thanks for your suggestions. BTW, did your "lost" files reappear? ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 4 Mon Apr 26, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 02:11 EDT Jamie: It still sounds pretty usual to me! I had stuff from "D" disappearing before stuff on "C" started disappearing. I use Diamond Back 2 to take "C","E", and "G" and put it on "D". When I did this things started disappearing on "D", then things started disappearing on "C". At one time I actually had the DESKTOP.INF file (backed up from "C") on "D" THREE times! The same file on the same partition, one in one folder,another in another (and the foldr it wasin later disapppeared), and in one of the LOST clusters that Edge brought back. My lost files didn;'t reappear only because I didn't try, I just restored the lost "C" stuff from the backed up floppies. Otherwise they were probably there. Neodesk could be a possibility, sicne I am having to reboot sooo much. When I back up this is what I have to do: 1)reboot 2)have edge check the HD (jus to make sure) 3)reboot 4)run DB2m, let it back up 5)reboot 6)MOVE files from "D" into folders on "D" (to keep things organized) 7)reboot 8)check things again with edge, make sure nothing is wrong 9)reboot 10)do whatever I have problems with "D" stuff and missing folders and such when I DON'T reboot frequently. I don't know what the culprit is, but I'm not interested in droping anything I run, so I guess I am content (sort of) to just reboot all the time. Probably does seem stupid I know. I also am NOT saying (or even implying) the DB2 or EDGE cause these problems. The only thign I have seen with DB2 is that I didn't start having trouble (and weird noises) from A: until I got DB2. No problems with B: though. Seems just coincidence. A: does have problems (with DB2) formatting disks using DB2's FAST format. There is ALWAYS a disk that just doesn't want to work, but is fine in B: with DB2. Soudns liek A: has a problem, but why is it the problem only comes up when using DB2? And the weird noises. i was told the noise is the thing in the drive that spins the disk has trouble getting into the notch ion the disk. But B: does not and has never had problems. Coincidence!? Don;t know, but it took to using DB2's FAST format to have the problem show. Like I said I am NOT knocking DB2 or Edge. Just saying it is just odd coincidence that things started when I got them. No viruses that I know of, and software can NOT cause hardware problems (right?). l89r Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 5 Mon Apr 26, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 22:02 EDT Isn't Diamond Mirror a non-resident program? I believe all it does is take a snapshot of your FATs, save its DAT files and then exits from memory. I can't imagine it causing any conflicts, unless it's not exiting cleanly, or it's causing a TSR that runs before it to choke. __ /erry .\\ay ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 6 Tue Apr 27, 1993 NTACTONE [Ron Hunter] at 01:24 EST You guys with the missing files HAVE checked for a virus, haven't you? Sure sounds suspicious. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 7 Tue Apr 27, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 02:00 EDT I am virus free and my lost stuff has and problems have disappeared after rebooting a lot and fixing my datadiet.inf file. Unless Diamond Back 2 or Diamond Edge IS a virus(?) Never had lost anything like this until I started using DB2 & Edge. I had had stuff happen, just not in so MAJOR of a way. But it's been at least a month since anything has happened to my HD. l8r Todd PS - My question still is WHY ICD's CleanUp and Diamond Edge show different things? Edge can show me that Fat1<>Fat2, but CleanUp does not find this problem. HUH? ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 8 Tue Apr 27, 1993 J.COYLE3 [JAMIE] at 02:16 EDT As far as I know, I have no virus either. I thought there were no Atari hard disk virus' in the US!!!?? Anyway, since I deleted Diamond Mirror I haven't had any problems. Also Todd, I too had just used DB2 to back up before using Edge, so who knows what the problem was. I'm no computer whiz, but I'm still thinking a conflict with Neodesk may be the problem. I await Bob's reply anxiously! Todd..as far as the disrepency between Clean Up and Edge...perhaps Edge is more thorough than Clean Up? Just an idea... ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 9 Tue Apr 27, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:06 EDT I received Diamond Edge today. I was able to recover about 60% of all data I had lost. I must say I am impressed with the magical wonders of this Prg. Thinking back if I had bought it when it first came out I would have less grey hair! Thanks Bob. P.S., the 60% I recoverd was the important stuff! :-) ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 10 Tue Apr 27, 1993 T.EVANS21 [] at 18:10 EDT It happend to a good friend of mine, the lost file things.. He also was using data diet.. But it happened when he stoped using it too.. He would from time to time have whole folders deleted, and with no warning... CleanUp and DE do show different things.. Once DE told him he had 160 bad clusters.. CU said he had two... CU fixed the two, and away he went... Later, <-:}Ted{:-> Tuesday, April 27, 1993 - 4:44:04 pm ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 11 Tue Apr 27, 1993 AEO.7 [Gregg] at 20:25 EDT Personally I use both Diamond Edge AND Clean Up. Though DE does a LOT more and is the more flexible program I've found that CleanUp can often find and repair a problem that DE either can't find or won't fix. Example: I had saved a VITAL word processing file to a floppy (only copy) after making a LOT of changes to it. Then we had a power 'burp' that got fed through during a 'save' function. This royally trashed a lot of the data on the floppy. DEdge said nothing was wrong with the disk even though I got constant error messages and 'data damaged' goodies when I tried to load the damaged files (or anything else from that disk). CleanUp found the floppy problem and fixed it enough to let me restore the lost data... So is CleanUp better? No, just different. I like both programs and have NO intention of parting with either (unless one or the other gets a MASSIVE upgrade that makes the other obsolete, not expect anytime soon). Gregg ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 12 Tue Apr 27, 1993 NTACTONE [Ron Hunter] at 20:56 EST >>rebooting a lot and fixing my datadiet.inf file. << >>Unless Diamond Back 2 or Diamond Edge IS a virus(?) Never had << >>lost << No, but from what I have seen of Data Diet, it resembles one on occasion... ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 13 Tue Apr 27, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 21:25 EDT My experience has been that CleanUp does not always detect the different FATs. Before I started using Diamond Edge, I had TuneUp refuse to optimize my drive a few times, because the FATs were not equal. But CleanUp said everything was OK, so I was stuck. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 14 Wed Apr 28, 1993 ORA.TECH at 01:36 EDT James - You have something screwy with your system, but it is definately NOT related to Diamond Mirror. It is not a resident program, on boot it simply opens a file, reads the boot sector FAT tables and directory structure, writes to the open file, closes the file, and then quits. A variety of TOS and other disk problems can result in folders disappearing and then reappearing, however Diamond Mirror could not possibly be involved. You will need to look elsewhere for the explaination. The phenomenon you are describing is indicitive of TOS's internal disk buffers gettin scrambled/lost without an indication that they need to be refreshed. Todd - You should seriously look at removing Data Diet from your system. Many people use it sucessfully, but it has problems on many systems that sometimes are hardware specific. In addition, we do not condone the Data Diet practice of patching GEMDOS functions with functions that do not behave, nor return the same values as the documented GEMDOS functions. If DE reported that FAT1 != FAT2, then DE received two different sets of data from the system when reading the FATs. Period! Since Cleanup said they were equal, this leads me to believe that the data is not corrupted on the disk but is being corrupted somehwere in the DMA channel. This could be hardware related(cables, host adapter, DMA chip, Memory) or could be software related(conflicts, hd driver bugs, etc.) This type of problem can be very difficult to isolate and diagnose because it is often intermitant. This is why Cleanup received two FATS that agreed and DE received two FATS that did not. You described several recuring problems from missing folders to a history of having to reboot before running programs, to floppy drives that behave differently. Randomly corrupted data in the DMA channel could easily be the cause of all of your problems. I think your system needs a serious diagnostic evaluation at an authorized service center. Best regards, Bob P.S. Todd. I assume that your comment about DB2 or DE being a virus was a joke because I know that you would not seriously make such an irresponsible statement in a public forem. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 15 Wed Apr 28, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 06:09 EDT I agree with Bob - a comparison of any program to a virus should be treated as a joke unless accompanied by a detailed explanation based on careful observations. Questions, comments or reports about Data Diet should be posted in the appropriate topic, Category 2 Topic 12 (TraceTech). gnox ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 16 Wed Apr 28, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 06:43 EDT Oops - I just noticed (a bit too late) that my previous post could be misconstrued. Bob's point about Data Diet in Message 184 is well taken. But one reason that the Data Diet practice which he does not condone has continued up to the present is that no reliable reports of problems caused by that practice have been received. Programmers generally base changes to their software on actual user reports, not on rumor and innuendo. That's why I'm encouraging people to post their Data Diet reports and questions where the programmer can see them and respond. Thanx all! gnox ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 17 Wed Apr 28, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 08:58 EDT Bob, I take back that statement of DB2 or DE being a virus, but it was only meant as a joke, but if anyone read it otherwise I do apologize, as that definetely was irresponsible of me (if anyone read it as something other than a joke). I have always had the reboot problem that I can remember, just seems to get more regular the more stuff I put on my system. I wanted to state that ICD's COPYFIX.PRG solved a LOT of bombs onmy system, but COPYFIX is for TOS 1.0,1.2, and should NOT affect my system in any way (I have TOS 1.6). ICD had no explanation, but if you have TOS 1.4 or above and have problems, check out COPYFIX to see of it has any effect. I had it where I could not change resolutions without bombing, niow with COPYFIX, I have NO PROBLEMS! WHY!? ICD can't explain. ALso, what copyfix does is just tell TOS 1.0,1.2, that when you copy a file, write the file with the SAME time/date stamp of the file and NOT the current system time/date. Now TOS 1.4+ fixes that. I will post my stuff in Tracetech. l8r... Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 18 Wed Apr 28, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 10:10 EDT See Flat, Diamond Edge, along with Warp 9, have to be two of the best bargains on any platform, considering all they do for what they cost! I know what you mean about saving gray hair. :^) __ /erry .\\ay ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 19 Wed Apr 28, 1993 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 13:02 EDT We'd just like to go on record in this topic to say that CodeHead Technologies supports Oregon Research's position on Data Diet. We do not condone or recommend the use of programs that modify the way documented system calls behave. The point here is not whether any problems have occurred as a result of this technique; the point is that the technique itself is unsound and potentially dangerous. This has nothing to do with "rumor" or "innuendo" - - it's a simple fact. - Charles @ CodeHead Tech ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 20 Wed Apr 28, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 19:14 EDT >If DE reported that FAT1 != FAT2, then DE received two different >sets of data For those of you who are not C programmers- you may not know what "!=" in the above statement by ORA.TECH means. We C programmers just assume everyone in the world knows what that means. Of course it means "not equal". >P.S. Todd. I assume that your comment about DB2 or DE being a virus was a joke >because I know that you would not seriously make such an irresponsible >statement in a public forem. I'm sure Todd was merely speculating that DB2 or DE might "have" a virus not that they "are" a virus. Anyways, I just purchased Diamond Edge and find it fascinating and very useful- but I'm confused about something: if you "Save Disk Info" then the entire FAT is saved- the purpose being to restore the entire FAT all at once. Mirror also saves the entire FAT - the purpose here being to restore deleted files. Since both have saved the FAT why are the respective data files any different? I notice that the files saved by Mirror are much smaller. What am I missing here? ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 21 Wed Apr 28, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 21:23 EDT Bob, I also want to state that my statement about viruses was partly not a joke, cuz PCs have gotten viruses from commercial software. I am definetely NOT saying that DB2 or DE can give you a virus, but I would think that if someone wanted to spread a virus in someones system, DB2 and DE would be the easiest way of doing it. This is NOT said to put down any program, but it can happen. If this is understood, can I go ahead and take my foot out of my mouth? :) I also want to say (as said before) I have NOT had a problem what-so-ever in my system in a couple of months. Now, I am not doing anything different EXCEPT rebooting before I run DB2 or DE. Is it a problem with DE or DB2? I don't know but I'm not saying it is. Lastly , I've heard some saying about the greater the program is in use and performance, the more likely there is to be a bug. Where the bug is I don't know. Or (HOPE NOT!!!!!!!!!!) a hardware problem... l8r. Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 22 Wed Apr 28, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 21:28 EDT Codehead: What does Data DIet do that is so "dangerous." I do not mean to sound sarcastic, I am SERIOUS... What does Data Diet do? Since DB2 does such great compression, I hav ebeen thinking about dropping DataDiet anyway. I don't care how big it is on the HD, just its size when backed up to floppy. So what does Data Diet do? Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 23 Wed Apr 28, 1993 ORA.TECH at 21:33 EDT gnox - I strongly disagree with your statement that no reliable reports of Data Diet's practice of replacing a GEMDOS call with one that behaves differently has not caused any problems. Any program that uses Fsfirst/Fsnext to walk a directory tree determining the size of files will receive INCORRECT information. Period. File copy programs that rely on this official and documented method of determining filesize will be told the file is smaller than it really is and only copy 2/3 of the file. I call that a BIG problem with Data Diet's practice, and a problem that has resulted in users loosing data and has been clearly communicated to the author. This will be my last public statement on Data Diet programming issues. Joe - The files saved by Mirror are designed for undeletion purposes and contain less information than a full Disk Info file which contains everything necessary to reconstruct a mangled disk. This is why teh mirror files are smaller. Best regards, Bob ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 24 Wed Apr 28, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 21:55 EDT Todd - do you use IDLE? It will cause bombs on my systems when trying to change resolutions from the Set Preferences menu. Doug7 ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 25 Wed Apr 28, 1993 P.GRIFFITH2 [PGRIF] at 21:59 EDT Gregg, I use DE, Cleanup, AND Sentry, AND ST Tools. Paranoid? Maybe, but they all seem to tell me different things and give me differing amounts of control over the repair and recovery process. Paul ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 26 Thu Apr 29, 1993 T.GIRSCH [TJ @ S-Mart] at 01:49 EDT Todd - Cleanup _really_ trashed my disk once, and so I shelved it. I'd avoid it like the plague. No such problems with Edge... - T.J. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 27 Thu Apr 29, 1993 EXPLORER.5 [Robert Goff] at 02:48 EDT Please see the Data Diet topic for the other side of the argument. |) | |)O|) Robert Goff ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 28 Thu Apr 29, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:23 EDT Besides, a larger hard drive is cheaper than losing all your data. Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 34 Thu Apr 29, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 18:51 EDT A friend of mine also has suffered from missing folders/files. He doesn't (or didn't at the time) use Diamond Back or Diamond Edge. he does however use DataDiet and Neodesk. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 35 Thu Apr 29, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 22:41 EDT Todd, What machine do you have? An early STE? Also, you should make sure your DMA cable is not close to a power cord. We had a problem on our UG drive and found the DMA cable laying across the power cord. When it was moved away from the cable, everything worked fine. You should be using a shielded cable. I agree with the concensus in that it sounds like you have a hardware problem somewhere and you should have it checked out. Constant problems as you describe can be a pain in trying to maintain data integrity and you should not have to do what you are doing. If you do have an earlier STE, they had problems on some of the machines with the DMA port. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 36 Thu Apr 29, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 23:00 EDT Well...then, "Never mind" :-) Idle is a simple screen saver (handy for us Crazy Dots users that can't run Warp9). Doug7 ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 37 Fri Apr 30, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:23 EDT Todd, IDLE is a screen saver, available here on GEnie. It was quite popular, although all screen savers lately have paled in comparison with the excellent Warp 9 system. Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 39 Fri Apr 30, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 19:59 EDT Yes, I do have an early 1040STe. The HD power cord does go across the HD cable, will fix that later. The cable I use has ICD on it, so it must be the one that came with the ICD SCSI+. I had a full diagnostic run on my STe BEFORE I even ordered my HD. Everything was fine. I don't understand why rebooting a lot would seemingly fix a hardware problem though. I use the screensaver found in the CPX accelerator module for use with MACCEL3. Also, the only difference I have now from before is I reboot more, ESPECIALLY when using Diamond Back 2 and Edge. And I have never (in my memory) had problems with Data Diet EXCEPT from user error (messing with DATADIET.WRK folder or corrupted DATADIET.INF file in AUTO folder, a VERY important file). Also, I found some other notes: I would: 1)check HD with Edge, everything fine (DataDiet off, cache off) 2)reboot 3)run aladdin (DD on, Cache on) do autopass1 4)exit aladdin 5)same as 1 6)reboot 7)run DB2 (DD off, cache on) takes files from CEG, puts them on D 8)run Edge (DD off, cache off) Now I have 8 lost clutsers on D! I don't see how this could be DataDiet in any way. I can repeat that over and over. I took DD off aladdin cuz it took so long to exit, NOT becasue of problems. And if this is DD, WHY does Edge not catch it until I've run DB2, adn WHY after a reboot and turning off DD (by using .ACC) does DB2 do this? I'm sorry, but I don't think anyone will ever convince me that this is Data Diet, and possibly even a hardware problem. And Aladdin didn't cause it becasue Edge said the drive was fine after using Aladdin. DB2 (for some reason) seems to be the problem. Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 40 Fri Apr 30, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 21:26 EDT Todd, I would still suggest a full diagnostics of your system to be sure. Also, do you have FLODRXXX.PRG in your auto folder? You might try that if you don't have it in there. You might want to use something like FOLDR200 or something. DB pushes the system as do other backup software. Also, these symptoms of files disappearing and lost clusters can be the result of improper termination on your HD. If you have more than one HD in the chain, make sure that the first and subsequent drives have the terminating resistors removed and the last drive in the chain has the terminating resistors installed. ONLY the last drive in an SCSI chain should normally be terminated. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 41 Fri Apr 30, 1993 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 23:01 EDT Todd, "Lost Clusters: These are clusters that are allocated in the FAT, but not belong to any of the files currently on the disk." Pge 15 DE manual. After you get the 'Lost clusters' ask yourself 'what files are missing?'. Are there any? Would they be Aladdin? Aladdid does play a lot of fragmenting games on the HD. When I started to use Diamond Edge I too got some lost cluster dat files, but after I started using DE once a week and backing up with DBII before DE I no longer have any 'Lost clusters showing up'. The only scary thing I've seen now is 'validation errors' usually on the drive that Aladdin is on (which is resonable). Hang in there and don't give up hope. Frank ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 42 Sat May 01, 1993 R.MORROW10 [Bob M.] at 02:43 EDT If you must cross DMA and power cables, make sure they're at right angles to each other. Magnetic lines of force from the power cable radiate in a pattern that's circular based on the cable being the center of the circle. When the cables are running parallel, the DMA (or speaker for audio systems) cable gets trapped inside the field. It's minimized considerably when they're crossed. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 43 Sat May 01, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 09:18 EDT Frank and Todd, Aladdin does a LOT of writing and re-writing of files as it works, not to mention the fact that it can continually append to existing files as well as add downloaded files. To minimize the possibility of damage to other files in the same partition, I have created a single 15 meg partition just for Aladdin. I use Diamond Edge and Diamond Back to keep this area in good order all the time. It is much quicker than having to do my whole HD. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 44 Sat May 01, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 10:17 EDT Watson, from what I understand TOS 1.6 and above do not need FOLDRxxx. I believe it is in the DOC file for FOLDRxxx as well. I only have one SCSI drive. Frank, some of my lost clusters (from what I could fgiure out) were garbage, escept for one being the desktop.inf file (which was now on my HD D partition THREE times after restoring that lost cluster), the Aladdin config file, and an aladdin topic list. This was from when DB2 moved stuff from E (my aladdin partition) to D (my backup partition). And my DATADIET work directory is on G. Now if E is fine from aladdin, and DB2 get D (destination of E stuff on backup) messed up, that's not aladdin. Also "give up hope?" I like all the software, just seems something gets messy if I'm not careful. I have not had any problems in like a month now. NONE. Actually, two of the problems is that when DB2 moves aladdins stuff from E to D, I was get lost clusters that were supposed to be FOLDERS! Now, since those folders were NEW, that is DB2 causing it, NOT DataDiet. When I backup E to D, it sends the stuff in folders (the folders I have with ne stuff), and then I move them from the root dir of D to folders on D (for organization). The stuff is messed up BEFORE I even have a chance to move stuff on D. Stuff is fine before I run DB2, things are messed up when I leave DB2. I have messed things up successfully five times, abnd I'm not interested in trying it again just to prove a point. Morrow, will move my cables. ST.Lou, just keep in mind that my backup part. is D, aladdin is on E, and the dtadiet work dir is on G. So I feel I'm safe. Also, TraceTech has told me that COPYFIX.PRG is not compatible with datadiet. Weird, since copyfix solves bombs on my system, ESPECIALLY in changing resolutiosn with a lot of AUTO srtuff in my system. Without COPYFIX I can't change res without bombing. With a clean system I can, but with all my AUTO stuff and ACCs on the system, I need copyfix. And NO, copyfix doesn't seem to have any effect on my system as far as EDge, DB2, datdiet, and aladdin go. i can cr4eate the SAME PROBLEMS with or without copyfix. Also, the fact that I use all these products hopefully shows that I am NOT just trying to bash ORA.TECH, TRACE.TECH, ICD or anyone else. But there is osmething fishy here. Lastly, I'll backup everything, datadiet my aladdin folder, and run stuff the way I did to see if I can still create the problems. If YES, then I will put FOLDRxxx in my AUTO folder and do it all over again. If FOLRxxx solves it, I'll be happy and will cont to use it. If FOLDRxxx (like I believe) has no effect, then we're at the beginning again. l8r.. Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 45 Sat May 01, 1993 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 12:03 EDT Todd, By all means use the FOLDERSXX. Over the past years, even when they said 1.4 corrected the folder problem, I went back using folders. Your system can get very, very, very quirky without it. I'm using a TT with a internal 50 mg and a Syquest 44 and use 'Folders' set at 240 with no problems. I would suggest you count all the folders in you system and set it for plenty. Possible this is problem in a nut shell, hopefuly this will help. Frank PS I don't use DD mainly because I'm old fashioned. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 46 Sat May 01, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 19:01 EDT Lou, I have the same setup for ALaddin as you. I found out long ago that checking and optimizing one partition for Aladdin was best. Brian ... Written on Saturday 01 May 1993 at 07:27 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 47 Sun May 02, 1993 NTACTONE [Ron Hunter] at 00:32 EST I also have one partition for Aladdin. It is preferable to having it fragment a partition used for something ELSE too. That way, if I don't defrag often, only Aladdin is affected. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 48 Sun May 02, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 02:24 EDT Todd, Actually it is TOS 1.4 and above but, it is still a recomended program even from Atari. If you are using something like DB that accesses a lot of folders, it is recommended. You might also try rebooting to change resolutions and use a boot manager to switch the resolution DESKTOP.INF file. This is a much cleaner method and will not leave your system in a confused state or a mess. It may not be noticable but, it can be there just the same. When you try the 'way you used to do it', also try this method. by the system bombing on you when you switch reolutions, it is trying to tell you something. It DON'T like it. :-). This is taking it for granted that you are using the change resolution from the Menu Bar at the desktop. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 49 Sun May 02, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 06:11 EDT Todd, Extra folders are recommended for _any_ TOS - but you can get them with your ICD booter, in which case using FOLDRXXX would be redundant. Lou, Brian, Ron, Good idea about a separate partition just for Aladdin ... I think I'll try that myself! One other thing, folks: don't ignore the warning Edge gives you before an optimization - always back up first. Yesterday my MDX directory became invalid during an optimization and that incremental backup really came in handy. :) gnox ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 50 Sun May 02, 1993 NTACTONE [Ron Hunter] at 10:52 EST >>optimization - always back up first. Yesterday my MDX directory << >>became invalid during an optimization and that incremental backup << >>really came in handy. :) << Backup? What's that? Grin. Oh, yeah, that's what Diamond Back is for.. I do one now and then, but have never had a problem with any of the defraggers, such as TuneUp, or CHKDSK31. Guess I am just lucky. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 51 Sun May 02, 1993 J.MEEHAN3 [>> Joe M << ] at 14:52 EST > Watson, from what I understand TOS 1.6 and above do not need < > FOLDRxxx. < Almost. The newer TOS's (1.04+) do better, but they may need FOLDERXXX at times. Copyfix has been accused of many conflicts. It it works for you great. >> Joe M << ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 52 Sun May 02, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 15:47 EDT My stuff is fine now. No bombing either (except onc e for unknown reason that I couldn't cause again.). I wen from hd driver 5.6.2 to 6.0.7, adn it has made a big differene. Whomever it is that told me to go to 6.0.7 for STe problesm I say thanks. I did NOT use foldrxxx, and have nopt increased the # of folders int he ICDBOTT.SYS file, so that wasn't the problem (seemingly.) On eproblrm i did have was if I used the cache in DB2, when DB2 sent the desk,.inf file from C to D it would be fine, but the old deasktop.inf file on D would become a "lost cluster". Go that to happen about 4 times in a row. Tuirning off the cache for DB2 solved that though. Also about 4 times in a row. I did A LOT of testing and fooling around to find problems. I even turn Datadiet on Aladdin so I could create some major problems. The ionly problems were the desktop.inf file getting "lost", but the one needed (the most current) was ALWAYS okay. No other problems otherwise. Wayne Watson: SURE rebooting will allow me to go to low using a boot manager (liek Desk Manager) but I thought the idea here was to get this stuff to work WITHOUT REBOOTING(!?). One reason i can't got to low is cuz I believe the one ACC I use is medium/high only. Also, to change res. from neodesk, you either have to reboot (neodesk changes your desktop.,inf file then reboots) or leave neodesk to go to the reg desktop (which definetely may be the oproblem). l8r. Todd (ALSO sorry about my spelling, I'm not in the mood to type.) ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 53 Mon May 03, 1993 ORA.TECH at 01:19 EDT Todd, If turning off the cache resolves problems you are having with DB2, then that suggest to me that ICD has not fixed all of their cache timing problems in their driver for some machines. DBII operates exactly the same with or without the cache on, it doesn't know or care. What happens within the hard disk driver is out of our control. I would suggest installing HDX5.0 on your system and trying things out with the cache on, based on my previous experiences with cases such as yours, I'll bet there will be no problem at all. Then I would suggest you report these problems to IDCINC. Best regards, Bob ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 54 Mon May 03, 1993 R.DEAN3 [GUNNER] at 23:34 EDT NTACTONE I think it's about time to drop the cheap shots at Data Diet in this topic. Comparing Data Diet to a Virus is complete BS and you should be ashamed of yourself. This is the Diamond Edge topic, if you have a valid complaint about Data Diet, take it to Trace Technologies. (Cat 2 Top 12) I have been using DD since it's original release and have NEVER lost ANY data that could be attributed to the product. If you are losing data, I would first suggest you RTFM and if that fails try eliminating one program at a time until you find the problem. On the DE/CU controversy, I recommend both products as well as Bechmeyers Hard Disk Sentry. I have seen problems with hard drives that only one of these three (each one seems to have it's own bit of magic) great utilities would correct. If you want complete security, invest in all three. ORA.TECH When are you ST developers going to start sticking together and working with each other? I noticed that you admonish Todd for slandering your software, but say nothing when Ron slanders Trace Technologies in your topic (and then of course Charles has to jump in with a cheap shot too). As a user of products from all three companies, I am getting tired of this childish behavior. I am sure that you are well aware that any DB user who has bothered to read the manual has only to set DD to Find Next File "original" from the configuration menu in the ACC or set the DDINFO file to do it automatically and the DD/DE combination work flawlessly. All three companies turn out outstanding software for the ST community. All three companies need all of the support from the user base that they can get. All three companies are alienating users with this childish diatribe. How about if we all just RTFM, configure our software as directed and get back to supporting each other in our ST community? To borrow one from Rodney King... "Can't we all just get along?" Gunner ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 55 Tue May 04, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 08:28 EDT It seems after doing more stuff that it really doesn't matter, those lost clusters may appear anyways. Lost clusters aren't good but at least all files are accounted for. The old stuff becomes lost clusters. Is ICD on here? What is HDX5.0? Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 56 Tue May 04, 1993 R.MORROW10 [Bob M.] at 20:16 EDT Gunner- Notice that Charles and Bob @ ORA were together on their position about ...that other program. Can't the author defend his work? ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 57 Tue May 04, 1993 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 23:38 EDT Todd, HDX5 is ver.5.xx of the Atari Hard Disk Utilities. I use it and find that it works fine with my TT and Syquest system. There may be a later version, not sure but have seen one mentioned in another topic. This new version shld be 6.03 and the messages were in a TT area Cat 28, Topic 2. Frank ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 58 Wed May 05, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 06:52 EDT Bob M., > Can't the author defend his work? There's nothing to defend. If Bob or Charles had meant to attack Data Diet in any way that required a response from the author, surely they would have posted their `attacks' in the Data Diet / TraceTech topic, (where the issue of how Data Diet works or should work has been and is being discussed). Their `policy' statements were posted here presumably because they relate to ORA's customer support. Whether they actually _contribute_ to customer support is another question, which I think still calls for some comment. Sorry, it's going to be rather long ... What does ORA do when a customer suffers data loss and complains to ORA about it, and ORA suspects Data Diet? I'd expect ORA to ask whether the customer uses Data Diet, and if so, tell the customer that ORA can't help and that the customer should consult the DD manual and/or TraceTech. (On the principle that the customer is always right, ORA might even want to go further and tell him that the problem is Data Diet and not user error.) Since I've never spoken with a fellow customer who's been in that position, I don't know whether this has been ORA procedure or not. Now, let's suppose that ORA wants to further support their customers by preventing such scenarios from arising in the future. I can think of three possible ways of doing this - and I think that ORA and CodeHead have chosen the worst of the three. The three options for ORA are: 1) Change ORA software so that it turns off Data Diet or changes its mode. 2) Urge TraceTech to change Data Diet so that data loss becomes impossible. 3) Tell customers to avoid Data Diet altogether. Basically, ORA and CodeHead have chosen Option 3 without trying the other two. There are good reasons for rejecting Option 1. Although it is technically possible, even easy, and the information needed to make the changes has been available to ORA and CodeHead for about two years, it's not their responsibility to change their own software to avoid problems caused by other software. Option 2 has been rejected for reasons that are not as easy to explain. Both ORA and CodeHead did try this route with Double Click when the now-defunct DC was distributing Data Diet. DC was not at all responsive. But TraceTech (essentially Keith Gerdes, the _author_ of Data Diet) is _very_ different from DC, and neither ORA nor CodeHead has made any attempt to communicate their concerns to TraceTech. They haven't even posted their concerns in the TraceTech topic, although they've posted their `policy' elsewhere on several occasions. This is the part I find hard to understand. So we're left with Option 3 - and I can't see any way that the ORA/CodeHead `policy' supports customers unless it's by directing them to avoid Data Diet altogether. I suppose it's a developer's right to do this sort of thing to another developer, but I think it sets a dangerous precedent for the Atari community, and as an ORA customer who is also a TraceTech (and CodeHead) customer, I don't consider this option to be real support. Please understand that I am not questioning the ORA/CodeHead policy or their right to proclaim it. And I am not blaming or flaming ORA or CodeHead for doing it this way; I understand how the situation has come about. I am just questioning whether it's a good way to support customers. gnox ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 59 Wed May 05, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 08:09 EDT Gunner, I was bothered also when Codeheads jumped into this topic saying stuff about DD. More than one software developer talking about anothers product I feel shouldn't be tolerated. Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 60 Wed May 05, 1993 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 12:30 EDT Gunner, I take exception to your comment that I "jumped in with a cheap shot" with my statement supporting ORA's policy on Data Diet. You're free to ignore CodeHead's and ORA's warnings; but labelling them as "childish" and "cheap shots" is degrading and insulting, and I don't appreciate it. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= gnox, Unfortunately, your whole argument that ORA and CodeHead are providing "poor support" to their customers who use Data Diet falls apart in the face of one simple fact: Keith Gerdes has been aware of our position on DD's abuse of the operating system for over a year. He _participated_ in the last discussions we had with Double Click before they dissolved. If he told you he was not aware of our feelings about this issue, his memory is obviously flawed. When it came time to release a new version of Data Diet, rather than address the potential danger involved with his current technique, Keith chose instead to disassemble our program MaxiFile (a very questionable and unethical action) and supply a "patch" that would fix HIS problem by altering the way OUR program works -- and he has NEVER even contacted us for permission to do this. In fact, he's never contacted us about this matter, or about ANYTHING. And you think CodeHead and ORA are acting irresponsibly? John posted a long message in the CodeHead category recounting the entire history of the Data Diet debacle. If anyone reading this is interested in the truth (as opposed to gnox's version), please go find this message. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Todd, >> More than one software developer talking about anothers product I >> feel shouldn't be tolerated. You know, if two reputable Atari developers, with _many_ years of experience programming under TOS, told me that a particular technique was dangerous and could potentially cause problems, I think I might listen to them. You have a perfect right to ignore our warnings, but when you start claiming that we have no right to voice them, you're out of line. It is programming techniques such as the one used by Data Diet that should not be tolerated. - Charles @ CodeHead Tech ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 62 Thu May 06, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 00:30 EDT COuld we get back on topic. I think I am either in the Twilight Zone or the Diamond Edge topic. I am not saying this discussion should die but won't the Data Diet topic be more effective? Or cat 18 under melees [grin]. Brian ... Written on Wednesday 05 May 1993 at 10:09 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 63 Thu May 06, 1993 ORA.TECH at 02:21 EDT gnox - You have no knowledge about what really has transpired between Keith Gerdes and I. Your statements regarding what may or may not have transpired between us are pure conjecture that I strongly resent. You also exhibit absolutely no knowledge of our technical support procedure when a Data Diet problem is suspected. Your attack on the quality of my companies customer support for something you know nothing about(and freely admit in your message that you have not experienced nor have heard accounts of) is malicious and unwarrented. We have never made ANY statement to ANY customer about Data Diet other than in direct problem related support. We do not recommend using it nor do we recommend not using it, we simply DO NOT TALK ABOUT IT. In extreme technical support cases, and never, if possible, in public, our ONLY comment is to suggest to see if removing DD solves the problem and if so contact the authors company. Our record on customer support and our professionalism speaks for itself. If you care to ask a support question about Diamond Edge in this topic, you are welcome to do so. Otherwise, post your Data Diet comments elsewhere. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 64 Thu May 06, 1993 R.MORROW10 [Bob M.] at 02:29 EDT ICD is online, just type ICD. HDX5.0 is Atari's Hard Disk Driver software. Not useable if you have an ICD host adapter (their stuff is so much better anyhow) ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 65 Thu May 06, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 02:36 EDT If it were my data, I would listen to the warnings. My data is too important to be put in jeopardy. This is one reason I never trust programs such as this. I have learned that John and Charles know what they are talking about and if you feel that warning people of the dangers is talking bad about another developers product, then I guess they are. When a developer does something that puts your data in jeopardy, why blame someone else for the problem or accuse someone of trying to bad mouth a product? ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 66 Thu May 06, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 07:15 EDT Bob, Your response sent me back to my original post, looking for the "attack on the quality" of ORA's customer support which you see in it. I see no such attack, so you'll have to point it out to me - privately if you wish. The imaginary scenario I described was based on the assumption that ORA's support is good (as I have personally found it to be). Actually kind of advice I said I "would expect" is more helpful than your actual ORA advice as you described it. ("Removing DD" from a system that has dietized files in it will generally cause more problems than it solves, and is not likely to help ORA customers.) I am accustomed by now to Charles @ CodeHead misreading and distorting my messages (and I don't want to invite more distortions by replying), but I don't expect this kind of thing from you. I am confident that a dispassionate reading of my post will show that I am not attacking you. My statements about relations between you and TraceTech are not "pure conjecture" but are based on what you have told me in e-mail. (The same goes for TraceTech/CodeHead relations). I'd be happy to upload the entire 4-way exchange on this matter, unedited so people could make up their own minds about who said what, but of course I'd need your permission and CodeHead's, since some of it is private mail. If that's not feasible, all I can do is try to sort out the misunderstanding with you privately. I am especially baffled by your parting shot: > post your Data Diet comments elsewhere. There were no Data Diet comments in my post. Whatever I have to say about Data Diet I post in the TraceTech topic. What I was wondering, and am still wondering, is why you don't do the same. If the intention of your earlier post about Data Diet was not to advise customers against using it, then what _was_ its intention? Anyone who reads this topic can see what message people are getting from it. your customer, gnox ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 67 Thu May 06, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 08:53 EDT Charles, I meant that your problems with DD should be in the Codehead topic, not the DE topic. To me this wouldn't be very much different if I went to the DD topic and started bashing ORA.TECH. The story about Maxifile is VERY interesting, and if perfectly true (I have no reason to not believe you, but Keith has not mentioend it, which, if I were him, I WOULDN'T either), then I think that was WAY out of line. How can you PATCH someones program without contecting them about it!? My opinion would be "WHAT was Keith thinking?" This is interesting, but our problem seems to have gone from DB2/DE/DD discussions to simple arguing about software developers and their actions. In another words, I quit, because now I am feeling that I am getting out of line. Lastly, I WILL read the posts in the Codehead topic. Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 68 Thu May 06, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 08:57 EDT Charles, I couldn't find the message(s) in Codehead topic. What is the date of the post? ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 69 Thu May 06, 1993 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 12:58 EDT gnox, I responded here because you posted your libelous comments here. Any time you attack CodeHead Technologies with outright untruths, I'm going to be there to set the record straight -- so you'd better get used to it. Bob's right. It _was_ an attack, on both CodeHead and ORA, and you have no idea what you're talking about. It's pretty amazing to see you claim "there were no Data Diet comments in my post" -- when practically every paragraph in your message contains the phrase "Data Diet." But unfortunately, I'm getting quite accustomed to your penchant for rewriting history. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Todd, I left my original message here because I wanted to support Bob Luneski's statement about Data Diet. I left my second message when gnox jumped in with his distorted and insulting view of CodeHead/ORA's customer support practices. Excuse me for contradicting you, but I think both of my messages belong right where they were posted. If you're still interested in John's post, the thread starts with message #23 in the MaxiFile topic (topic 7). - Charles @ CodeHead Tech ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 70 Thu May 06, 1993 ORA.TECH at 16:07 EDT Bob - Actually, you can use HDX on systems with a ICD host adapter. I also agree entirely with your statement that ICD's driver is the fastest and highest quality hard disk driver for the Atari system. It is my driver of choice and I highly recommend it. There are, however, a very small number of machines whose internal timings on the DMA and ACSI bus lie on the edge of the manufacturing distribution. These few machines do not perform reliable DMA disk transfers with the ICD driver and the cache activated. It is important to note that this is a hardware problem restricted to a few machines and not a problem in ICD's driver. These machines can often be made to operate reliably by turning off all caching or through the use of HDX. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 71 Thu May 06, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 18:12 EDT I would like to apologize for any damage which my posts may have caused to the support reputation of Oregon Research Associates. It was not my intention to malign ORA support, and I am extremely disappointed that anyone has taken my post in that way. To set the record straight, I'd like to testify that in my experience as an owner of Diamond Back and Diamond Edge, ORA's excellent reputation for supporting its products is well deserved. It has also been suggested that I clarify my relationship with TraceTech. I do not speak for TraceTech and never have. My posts here (and elsewhere) represent my personal views only and not those of TraceTech or Keith Gerdes. I am not an employee of TraceTech and have not asked for or received TraceTech's permission to say anything in any post (including this one). About a year ago I became a beta tester of Data Diet, and this fact has been publicly mentioned in the TraceTech and MaxiFile topics. I have not mentioned it here because it never occurred to me that it was relevant; but if anyone knowing of my beta-tester status has taken my posts as representing TraceTech positions, then I should apologize to Keith Gerdes too. Finally, as Bob requested, I intend to restrict my future posts in this topic to specific questions about Diamond Edge. Best wishes to all. gnox ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 72 Thu May 06, 1993 E.WISNIEWSK1 [Jeff - ST'er] at 18:35 EDT >John posted a long message in the CodeHead category recounting the >entire history of the Data Diet debacle. If anyone reading this is >interested in the truth (as opposed to gnox's version), please go find >this message. At this point, does it really matter what the history was. Maybe it is time for all to bury the hatchet and start over. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wednesday, May 5, 1993 - 10:08:28 pm ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 73 Thu May 06, 1993 ORA.TECH at 22:58 EDT Appology accepted. Let's all get on with the fun of owning and using Atari computers. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 75 Fri May 07, 1993 R.DEAN3 [GUNNER] at 01:22 EDT Charles; Like I said, it's a real shame that the few good Atari Developers that we have, can't all band together and get along. There is no degradation or insult in any message that I have posted here or in any other topic. Just a dedicated Atari users veiw from this side of the screen. I appreciate the customer support that I have recieved on DBII from ORA (Never needed it yet with DE - I R'd TFM). I also appreciate the support I have recieved from Codehead and Tracetech. End of participation in this line of discussion... Gunner ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 76 Fri May 07, 1993 T.GIRSCH [TJ @ S-Mart] at 02:04 EDT Bob - I back you up on your customer support. It's excellent. Keep up the good work. - T.J. (A happy customer) ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 77 Fri May 07, 1993 VORTEXT at 03:19 EDT Ooops. Seems I've managed to get all my files in one of my partitions into a saved lost cluster dat file. The seem to be unrecoverable, so says the program. When I try to undelete them, I can see all the folders and I know what they should be, I am told it is unrecoverable. Any thing I can do? Outside of reloading what i had there? No. I do not have a back up of this partition. I was getting ready to do one. Daniel ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 78 Fri May 07, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 08:37 EDT Okay, back to DE and ORATECH. What has changed between v. 1.00-1.03(?) of DE? And what is the highest version available? I know Bob will like knowing I have two upgrades for DE but haven't installed them. If upgrading DE solves any errors I will really feel stupid. Also, Bob, could I have a hardware problem that I can do NOTHING about? Actually, I think somoen has been saying this to me all along anyway. Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 79 Fri May 07, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 18:31 EDT Todd, Your problem certainly sounds like a folder problem. Someone mentioned that you should use FOLDRxxx or increase the folder count in your ICD driver. I believe that's all you need to do to solve your problem. You most definitely should use at least 200-300 extra folders on _any_ hard drive, whether this is the root of your problem or not. gnox, Neither ORA nor CodeHead have ever said "avoid Data Diet altogether". Where did you get that idea? Was it perhaps from the statements made by Bob and Charles that we do not condone the Data Diet _practice_ of returning false operating system information? Please go back and read the original statements. Neither company has recommended that anyone avoid Data Diet. Those are your words. What we have here are a number of developers stating publicly that a programming practice is flawed. It's not a feud between companies or personalities, although you seem to want to make it one. Your presumptions (or what you "suspect") about the way CodeHead handles technical support are incorrect. Please see my response in Category 32, Topic 16, "Getting the message across". John P.S. I hope we're talking about the same message -- your message #58. Your comments about your rereading of it make me wonder if we're reading different messages. Perhaps a more passionate reading of it will reveal its offensiveness. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 81 Fri May 07, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 20:34 EDT I'm sorry, Brian. I like things to be on topic as much as you do. But when damaging statements are made in other topics, I feel the need to respond in that area to try to reach the same people who saw the damaging statements. John ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 83 Sat May 08, 1993 R.MORROW10 [Bob M.] at 00:07 EDT Bob/ORA Didn't know you could run HDX on an ICD system. I always thought they required their "special" drivers. Oh well, I'm not changing my ICD setup! :- ) ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 84 Sat May 08, 1993 NTACTONE [Ron Hunter] at 00:09 EST >>definitely should use at least 200-300 extra folders on _any_ hard << >>drive, whether this is the root of your problem or not. << I have TOS 1.4, and have the ICD booter set to the default 64 extra folders, and have never seen the message about being out of folder space. Of course, I only have 80 meg, and I am not 'folder happy'. If I had a really big HD, I would probably have to increase the folder space.. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 85 Sat May 08, 1993 ORA.TECH at 01:24 EDT Daniel - The fact that your lost clusters were saved to a single file tells me that you are not using the latest version of Edge. You can patch your version to V1.03 with a patch file from the Genie library. Now, since many of your files still appear in the undelete window. I would suggest you 1) examine th lostculster.dat file to see if you can recognize anything tehn 2) delete the Lostcluster file. This will free up the FAT entries without changing the data on the disk. Then when you view it from the Undelete menu it will show you what portion of th files are identifiable and recoverable. Be sure to check any files recovered in this manner with a CRC or Checksum validation file to insure the integrity of the recovered data. Todd - The latest version of DE is V1.04. I have only released patches to V1.03 so far but will simulaneously release patches to take V1.03 and V1.04 to V1.05 hopefully by the end of the weekend. There is a revision history in one of the earlier messages. As John said I recommend Foldrxxx with at least 2-300 folders (I use 400) regardless ot your TOS version or hard disk driver. There are also indications that a harware related issue may be involved. Before you conclude there is nothing you can do about it, I do suggest that you try installing HDX on your system. It is a slower driver than ICD's without caching(although it is better if you install cachennn from Atari) and has a history of being able to operate more reliably on machines with flaky DMA busses or spurious timing problems. ---- Before everyone screams what;s this about V1.04 and why wasn't I told! :- )) It is an interum Falcon version released about a month ago that adds IDE and SCSI-2 compatibility in the HD partitioning module. V1.03 runs fine on the Falcon with the exception of the hard disk partitioning. V1.05 which I hope to finish this weekend(yes, I do work 7 days a week) will add the classy 3-d Falcon interface as well as a few other things. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 86 Sat May 08, 1993 ORA.TECH at 01:30 EDT Ron - It really has nothing to do with how big your hard drive is. The main factor is the accumulated depth of accessed folders and "open" paths as seen by GEMDOS in a single session. You can run into problems on a 20 meg hard drive with repeatedly accessed depply nested path structure. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 87 Sat May 08, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 02:40 EDT John, my folder count is at 400 extra in the ICD folder count. It was NOT before, but I haven't sen much difference on my system since I upgraded from ICD 5.6.2 to 6.0.7. It bombs very less frequently. But fi rebooting is the best alternative for me (except for buying more software), then I'm pretty content with it. I AM folder happy. Probably WAY too foldr happy, but it helps keep things organized to me. Bob, have a Kit-Kat :) Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 88 Sat May 08, 1993 NTACTONE [Ron Hunter] at 10:02 EST >>Ron - It really has nothing to do with how big your hard drive is. << >>The main factor is the accumulated depth of accessed folders and << >>"open" paths as seen by GEMDOS in a single session. You can run << >>into problems on a 20 meg hard drive with repeatedly accessed << >>depply nested path structure. << True, of course, but the bigger the HD, the more likely you are to have a lot of folders, and deeper nesting (to impose some order on a larger number of files). Like I said, I am not 'into' deeply nested folders. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 89 Sat May 08, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 13:10 EDT In all the years I've been using TOS 1.4 and above, I've never needed (nor used) any extra folders until the advent of JetMail (my Fido mail utility), which seems to use a lot of file handles (or whatever). JetMail does not work at all on the Falcon for basically the same reason. (Increasing folders does not help, though.) __ /erry .\\ay ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 90 Sat May 08, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 14:02 EDT Of course, the folder pool is used by more than just open folders. The best explanation I've seen is from Doug Wheeler. I still have it and will repost it here if requested. __ /erry .\\ay ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 91 Sat May 08, 1993 T.EVANS21 [] at 16:43 EDT Brian... Why don't you pop over to CAT 18, TOP 2, where you are desperately needed, and police action is certainly required, and leave us alone here... :O <-:}Ted{:-> Saturday, May 8, 1993 - 8:13:20 am ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 93 Sat May 08, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:56 EDT Outrider, i'd like to see the folders explanation by Doug Wheeler. If everyone does about this perhaps you could just E-Mail it. thanks John B. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 94 Sun May 09, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 02:02 EDT Here's Doug Wheeler's explanation of the memory pool, aka the 'slots' taken up by open folders. I hope Doug and GEnie don't mind this repost, but it's so nicely explained, it should clear up a lot of confusion. -----8<----- Atari-ST RoundTable Category 14, Topic 32 Message 94 Mon Sep 16, 1991 DOUG.W at 23:30 EDT The ST uses what's called "pool" memory for 2 purposes in the ST. First, this memory is used to keep track of OPEN folders. There is enough space to keep track of 40 folders at once. Prior to TOS 1.4, once pool memory was used by a folder, it could not be reused. Starting with TOS 1.4, pool memory is only used for folders that are CURRENTLY open. So, it's possible to have 40 folders in use AT THE SAME TIME before you reach the limit. The second use for pool memory is to keep track of memory blocks in use by applications. If an application allocates a lot of small blocks of memory, you can use up pool memory without having ANY folders in use. TOS 1.4 and 1.6 have a bug in this use of pool memory. This bug can prevent pool memory from being reused in certain instances. POOLFIX3 fixes this bug. The message in the ROMs that you refer to will be displayed when pool memory is exhausted, which can occur for three reasons: 1. You try to open more than 40 folders SIMULTANEOUSLY. 2. An application allocates too many blocks of memory. 3. Some combination of the above (since the pool memory is shared, use by folders or memory allocation will reduce what's available for the other). I hope this helps explain what's going on. With POOLFIX installed, there are no known bugs in the handling of pool memory with regard to folders or memory allocation, just limits (which can be extended by using FOLDRxxx.PRG). I think the primary cause of confusion is the name FOLDRxxx.PRG, which would more appropriately be named POOLxxx.PRG since it does more than increase the _folder_ count - is also allows more allocated memory blocks. --Doug ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 95 Sun May 09, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:24 EDT Speaking of nested folders, am I the only one who hadn't realized that the eight-nested-folder limit no longer exists? Most software won't deal with folders beyond eight, but you can nest them as deep as you like if you have late versions of TOS. I tried it the other day and went to 50 levels. The 3.06 desktop wouldn't delete the mother folder (OK, the father folder, if that is less [or more] sexist!), nor would any utility I had at hand. But the older versions of TOS would barf at creating folders beyond eight levels. Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 96 Sun May 09, 1993 R.MORROW10 [Bob M.] at 14:49 EDT Terry- Why not just upload Doug's file on the folder pool. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 97 Sun May 09, 1993 J.REYNOLDS26 [James] at 17:46 EDT Now I have a question about which AUTO to run with my MegaSt4 and TOS 1.4 (rainbow TOS). Do I even need FOLDRXXX.PRG or should I use POOLFIX.PRG instead? Also, do I need TOS14FIX.PRG anmd what does it do? Thanks. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 98 Sun May 09, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 21:05 EDT James, I use both Poolfix and Foldxxx. Can't hurt. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 99 Mon May 10, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 00:17 EDT Outrider, I assume ICD folder settings does NOT affect what POOLFIX3 does, meaning the mememory block thing? If not, should I use POOLFIX3? I have a STe TOS 1.6, ansd have never used POOLFIX3. How come no one (that I rememebr, I could and probably am wrong) has mentioned POOLFIX3? I was told a long time ago I didn't need it so I never have used it. As logn as it does not have the ability to cause problems I will use it. Is there a specific sequence that these files should load in your AUTO folder? ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 100 Mon May 10, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 00:21 EDT Nice expalnation from Doug Wheeler. Thanks Terry, for reposting. Now, does a TT with TOS 3.06 need Poolfix? Doug7 ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 101 Mon May 10, 1993 ORA.TECH at 00:24 EDT TOS1.4 and 1.6 need POOLFIX to fix an actual bug in the memory allocation pool cocde. FOLDRXXX adds additional blocks to that pool, so both are recommended for those TOS versions, only FOLDRXXX is necessary on other TOS versions. I have the readme for TOS14FIX around here somewher, it fixes two specific relatively benign bugs one of which I beleive is related to serial communication. I'll dig it up to verify. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 102 Mon May 10, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 02:23 EDT There is also the TOS 1.4 Fix II. It fixes a bug that came up with use of the MODEM.CPX module. Don't know the actual filename though. It should be here in the libraries. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 103 Mon May 10, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:26 EDT James, Yes. Use POOLFIX, the folder expander, and TOS14FIX. Here is an official explanation, shortened: Towns' Little Guide to TOS Revisions, version 1.0 ----------------------------- -------------------- Written by John Townsend, Atari Corporation This is a small document that explains in very terse terms the differences between the TOS revisions available for ST/MEGA/STE/ Mega STE/TT machines, what patches are needed for what revisions, the formats they are available in, and any notes I can think of. Rainbow TOS (TOS 1.04) ----------- TOS 1.04 or Rainbow TOS, as it is commonly known is the latest version of TOS available for 520/1040/MEGA owners. It has been available as a dealer upgrade for awhile now. It has much more robust Disk I/O, Autorunning of GEM programs at boot up, a fix for the 40 folder limit, and much more. Most of all is it much faster than previous versions of the Operating System. Formats: 2 chip ROMs, 6 chip ROMs (available as Upgrade!) Machines: Stacy Utilities: TOS14FIX.PRG, POOLFIX3.PRG, CACHEXXX.PRG, FOLDRXXX.PRG TOS14FIX.PRG solves some small problems in the AES (for additional information, please see the documentation that accompanies the TOS14FIX.PRG program). POOLFIX3.PRG fixes a bug in GEMDOS. Documentation that accompanies the POOLFIX3.PRG program explains (in detail) the problem that it fixes. CACHEXXX.PRG is a new program that adds GEMDOS buffers to your system. The caching of data and disk directories by GEMDOS (when this program is used) will result in your system running much faster! This program is highly recommended and requires TOS 1.04 or higher for full benefits! FOLDRXXX.PRG is explained above. Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 104 Mon May 10, 1993 J.MEEHAN3 [>> Joe M << ] at 05:01 EST D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] > .. does a TT with TOS 3.06 need Poolfix? < No, but FolderXXX is still needed. >> Joe M << ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 105 Mon May 10, 1993 K.VANDELLEN [Ken Van] at 07:07 EDT TOS14FIX has to do with the two modem ports on Mega STEs. Some programs need to be on port 1, and this fixes the problem, whatever it is, somehow. Ken Van Dellen d8^) ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 106 Mon May 10, 1993 R.MORROW10 [Bob M.] at 20:03 EDT James- You should use FOLDRXXX.PRG if you use a lot of folders. Me, I don't. You should use POOLFIX3.PRG and TOS14FX2.PRG. But since you're using a modem, you would be wise to investigate SERFX2.PRG, which is Serial Fix v2.0 that fixes the phantom typist and other problems in the RS232 handling routines. v2.0 has TOS14FIX code built in, I think. I think all are available here. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 107 Mon May 10, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 22:57 EDT Wayne, The latest TOS 1.4 fix is named TOS14FX2.LZH. -----8<----- Joe M, I disagree with the absolute statement that FOLDRxxx is _needed_ on any TOS version above 1.2. There's a chance you _might_ need it, depending upon how you use your computer. As I said before, in all the years I've been using TOS 1.4 and above, I've only found ONE program that caused the message to come up telling me to add pool slots. (Ironically, it's a very new program.) And I was one of the very first purchasers of TOS 1.4. __ /erry .\\ay ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 108 Tue May 11, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 01:59 EDT Thanks Joe! Doug7 ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 109 Tue May 11, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 08:52 EDT If I use ICD driver 6.0.7, and set the folder count higher, do I need foldrxxx? I am going to get poolfix soon. ALso, I use TOS 1.6. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 110 Tue May 11, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:16 EDT Todd, ICD's folder-expander replaces the TOS one, so you use one or the other but not both. Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 111 Tue May 11, 1993 NTACTONE [Ron Hunter] at 23:48 EST >> << >>If I use ICD driver 6.0.7, and set the folder count higher, do I << >>need foldrxxx? I am going to get poolfix soon. ALso, I use TOS << >>1.6. << The ICD drivers (at least the newer ones) perform the same function as FOLDRXXX.PRG, and it is not needed, IF you select the number of extra folders in the configuration. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 112 Wed May 12, 1993 ORA.TECH at 00:29 EDT Terry - I understand that you may not have personally experienced any problems related to not hving extra folders allocated. However, there are many more hardware, software, and disk configurations than the you have experience with. In my many years of experience in diagnosing and solving disk related problems on thousends Atari ST systems you would be amazed at how many bizare and seemingly random problems mysteriously disappear when the user increases the number of folders. I stand by my blanket recommendation of 200+ additional folders. Your milage may vary. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 113 Wed May 12, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 06:10 EDT Speeking of the folderxxx.prg, is it really limited to 999 folders? On 1 of my partitions I have about 800 folders, deeply nested. This is the 1 partition that Diamond Back refuses to work with and bombs out. I have done everything recommended by ORA.TECH with no luck. And Diamond Edge reports no problem with the drive partition. Strange but true, Turtle.prg has no problem backing up the partition. I'm tempted to set up folderxxx.prg with a new name as fold1200.prg. Any suggestions? Will that blow up my computer? I'm sure I read somewhere that the author of turtle.prg says he uses no illegal programming tricks so I wonder why it works and not Diamond Back. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 114 Wed May 12, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:47 EDT Joe, You can use Atari's folder fix along with ICD's. You'd then get 1,998 extra folders (2,038 total). Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 115 Wed May 12, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 08:44 EDT Al, ICD's folder fix in their driver can go up to 9999 extra folders. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 116 Wed May 12, 1993 NTACTONE [Ron Hunter] at 23:18 EST >> I'm sure I read somewhere that the author of turtle.prg says he << >>uses no illegal programming tricks so I wonder why it works and << >>not Diamond Back. << If I had to guess, I would say there is a problem with the length of the path that must be stored. 'Deeply nested' might mean something different to you, but 800 folders is a LOT of folders. You either have a large HD or are a regular 'nut' about folders, or both.. Grin. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 117 Thu May 13, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 03:28 EDT I _think_ you can run FOLDRxxx multiple times to install more than 999 extra folders. For instance, you can have one copy named FOLDR900.PRG and another oned named FOLDR800.PRG. I don't believe that will give you 1700 extra folders, however. Rather, it will double the amount of whichever one is first, because I think the program just looks for the first FOLDR???.PRG in your AUTO folder for the amount of extra folders to use. __ /erry .\\ay ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 118 Thu May 13, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 06:29 EDT >NTACTONE [Ron Hunter] at 23:18 EST > You either have a large HD or are a regular 'nut' about folders, or > both.. Grin. I wouldn't know how to survive without being a nut about folders. I'm a self employed consultant with a few hundred clients. For each client there is a master folder. Within each, there are folders with titles such as "contracts", "letters", "plans", etc. I usually go at least 4-5 levels deep. But I can find *any* file within seconds. I'm shocked when I watch someone on a DOS machine. They almost never use subdirectories. Even with Windows. Don't most offices have someone to teach their employees such basic tricks? >OUTRIDER [Terry] at 03:28 EDT > >I _think_ you can run FOLDRxxx multiple times to install more than 999 extra >folders. Never thought of that. I'll give it a try. Thanks. And now back to Diamond Edge. PS: One other thing. When I tell people I run a business on an Atari they are surprised. "But is it IBM compatible?"- they always say. And I reply, "I've spent the last 25 years trying to be incompatible with IBM and all the other capitalist pig companies, religious cults, stupid cultural practices, and phony politicians that run this country." Atari may be a looser and an outcast in the computer world- but I say, "Long live the 60's--Viva Atari!" ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 119 Thu May 13, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:20 EDT Todd, Sheesh, I looked at the booter and you are right. 9999 folders. That's a little more than I need. Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 120 Thu May 13, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 08:34 EDT I just thought, the problems I've had with bombs and such, could any of it be realted to the fast bit and whether it is on or off? Just an idea. What do you think Bob? Todd PS - I did NOT mean just Diamond software, I mean any in general. My Aladdin, Neodesk, DE, and DB2 have the fast bit on, along with all of my AUTO folder. I think all of my stuff has the fast bit on when I think of it. Possible problem? ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 121 Thu May 13, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 11:13 EDT Joe, Just because you have 800 folders doesn't mean that your extra folder setting needs to be that high. The number of extra folders is affected by both memory allocation (probably never taking more than about 50) and the number of folders _accessed_ between media changes. Just _having_ 800 folders doesn't exhaust your folder count. The slots are only used up when GEMDOS must look inside a folder. This happens only when you browse with the file selector or a file utility, or if a program opens a file in a particular folder (perhaps Diamond Back accesses all of the folders on a drive). You can force a media change in many ways and this will free all of the folder slots that were used by that drive. But even if you never force a media change, I doubt that you access all 800 of your folders in any one session. Todd, Perhaps your problems are not related to ORA products. Have you tried systematically removing the other software you use to pinpoint the problem? John ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 122 Thu May 13, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:38 EDT Joe Z, Viva Atari. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 123 Fri May 14, 1993 ORA.TECH at 02:01 EDT Joe - I had at least one instance of a relible person who said that when they put the folders in FOLDRXXX above a certain point actually caused FOLDRXXX not to load. Anyone form Atari care to comment if there is a Maximum on your Program. Try reducing FOLDRXXX to the 3-400 range and try it again. If you still have problems you can perform an image backup of the disk in question and send the disks to me for analysis to determine if there is a problem in the code or if you have a installation specifc issue that requires further diagnosis. You would probably only get 200 folders if you renamed it fold1200.prg as it probably only converts the last three characters to a number. In answer to your other question, Although Turtle may not do anything illegal, it does go in and mess with the GEMDOS memory pool in real time to flush the buffers. A tricky and potentially dangerous thing to do. To minimize the possibilty of conflicts in a program that requires high integrity such as a hard disk backup, Diamond Back does not muck with anything in the system in real time. Proper use of FOLDRXXX which is Atari Corporation's offical remidy to the problem has solved all known folder related problems. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 124 Fri May 14, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 02:15 EDT John, it has been apparent for awhile that ORA products are not the problem. Since upgrading my driver from 5.6.2 to 6.0.7 and some other stuff (read earlier messages on here for details) problems have (for th emost part) gone away. I have added folders to my folder count (400 I believe) and have poolfix in my AUTO folder. No difference seemingly, but no bombing is fine with me no matter what is in my system. And datadiet is off for Aladdin (excluded), and I shut it off for DB2 and DE, and shut the cache off fro DB2/DE as well. Well, with what I run, I don't want to lose anything because this or that causes a problem. If I have to reboot more, then I better be content with doing that. Now, if I ever have a time where having to reboot gets to be really annoying, then I'll do something. But I haven't done any rebooting (in a little while) that was really unnecessary. I am curious about Neodesk 3 though to be honest. A program controlling others programs sounds curious. I feel I have pretty well ruled out datadiet, though I will still get DATAlite 2, because (from what i understand) datadiet does illegal/questionable stuff where as DATAlite 2 does not. But I'll let ORA speak for their products so I don't put my foot in my mouth again. And the price is very reasonable too. Bob, should more topics be started for ORA's new products? I am sure there will plenty of comments/questions about DATAlite 2. (I have some already!). Move this to datalite 2 topic: To install datalite 2, will I need to un-datadiet my whole HD? Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 125 Fri May 14, 1993 ORA.TECH at 02:48 EDT Todd, The Fastload bit would only cause problems with poorly programmed applications that make (bad)assumptions about the contents of memory on startup. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 127 Fri May 14, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:53 EDT Todd, The fast-bit setting will definitely contribute to problems in some systems, especially for ACCs. Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 128 Fri May 14, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 10:20 EDT Bob, Actually, I don't think FOLD1200.PRG would get you ANY extra folders. I'm pretty certain that the program looks for the first occurance of FOLDRnnn.* and increases the folders by nnn. In this scenario, obviously it would ignore FOLD1200.PRG. __ /erry .\\ay ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 129 Fri May 14, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 11:06 EDT Todd, Well I'm glad you're content to reboot your computer more often to avoid problems. I just can't work that way. I depend very heavily on the reliability of my system (and so do a lot of other people) and it simply would be unacceptable to bomb at the wrong time and lose some work. Sometimes I go weeks between reboots of my TT (I leave it on all the time). If you're getting bombs, something's wrong. It's just that simple. John ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 130 Fri May 14, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 19:16 EDT John, I have my computer bomb on reboot while it is rebooting and loading everything sometimes. Doesn't happen often, but would say at least once a week. Weeks between reboots!? I could not do that. Something is wrong then. Will sat fastbit of on stuff and see what happens. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 131 Fri May 14, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:34 EDT Heck, why don't we test this theory out? What's the easiest way of bumping into the folder limit? Any takers? I'll do the testing (lots of HD space to play around with) if someone else comes up with a modus folderamous. Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 132 Fri May 14, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 20:03 EDT Todd, the new DataLite topic is number 16. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Friday 14 May 1993 at 08:40 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 133 Fri May 14, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 22:10 EDT Todd, I am like John in one way -- I have my computers on all the time, and I seldom need to reboot EXCEPT when doing beta testing. If you have MaxiFile, you can use it to set all the fast-load bits off for every file in your system. (It will also set any other bits system-wide, too; as a serious utility, Maxi is the best single piece of software for any platform, and I know what's out there for the other platforms.) My oldest ST used to be on around the clock, and it never failed. It's awaiting a network feed right now, or it would be on even yet. My workhorse ST has a brain and heart transplant (a leg transplant, too, I suppose -- maxed memory, 16-mHz processor, Best Co. power supply), and it needs rebooting only during testing, which I have been doing a lot of. My record for times between reboots is a little over seven months -- my oldest ST, running my own BBS software -- and even then the reboot was needed not because the ST or the software had a problem, but because the power company thought a 600-volt spike was a fun thing to send out. (The computer survived, but the suppressor didn't.) My TT is very stable, and a pure joy. Here are some things I would look for in addition to the fast-load settings, which should all be off (for ACCs, PRGs, APPs, TOSes, TTPs and GTPs) as long as you use either PinHead or Warp 9 with its fast-load setting on: - A munged DESKTOP or NEWDESK information file - A bad connection to the monitor - An unstable power supply Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 134 Fri May 14, 1993 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 23:31 EDT Bob, Re: Fastload Bit: On my TT systems I have the 'Fastload Bit' set by using the one in warp 9 - every once and while I will have a problem with a program and if I find that it is also has a fast bit enable from PRGFLAGS I remove this enable and just use the enable from Warp 9 my problems will go away. Kinda' Strange but has made a difference on a few programs that I use. Frank ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 135 Sat May 15, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 07:07 EDT When I run disk medic on my partition "F", medic reports "Bad Clusters 1". But no disk error file is created. And after that message is another message which says, "No problems found." I then tell medic to fix the errors; it repeats the previous run; and I get the same message. Does this mean that there is a bad cluster but it can't be fixed? ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 136 Sat May 15, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 09:54 EDT Al, I have thought about getting Maxifile, but never have. May get it. Would help the fastbit thing greatly. Don't have a TT, so not sure what you mean by the Warp 9 thing. Bad connection to monitor? Will be getting datalite2, to support ORA AND to ensure DD isn't my problem. I have everything with the fastbit on because of speed of loading. If I could turn them off BUT not have to reboot for months, then it would definetely be better to shut them off, and obviously faster. Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 137 Sat May 15, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 11:48 EDT Frank, If you can afford MaxiFile, you'll find you can set or unset any bits for any application in one click. Many downloaded applications come with the fast-load bit set, so we always need to reset those bits if we are using Warp 9. (Not the royal "we" there, but an all-inclusive "we" for Warp users...) Joe, I don't know about the way DE handles it, but a disk-repair application will often report "bad sector" when it reads a sector that has already been mapped out. When it goes back to "fix" that sector, it finds that it really is already mapped out, and so no fixing is needed. Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 138 Sat May 15, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 12:00 EDT Can DL2 be turned OFF for DE, or will they not conflict each other in any way? I have ALWAYS turned OFF DD when using DE because I wasn't sure if there could be a conflict, like writing a lost clusters data file then optimizing the HD without having DD do its thing sounds like a possible problem waiting to happen, if that made sense(?) I also turn DD off for DB2 because it is much quicker just compressing, rather than DD uncom. then DB2 recom. Will there be a way to turn DL2 off for when you don't want it to uncomp., liek in my example above, cuz that could make backing up a much longer process. If DD was loaded AFTER DL2, wouldn't DL2 just umcomp. the file to its datadiet compress format, than DD would uncomp that? I ask that incase someone has a DD file that needs DD to uncom. it. Too bad you can't put in a routine to undo DL2 AND DD files, but I don't think Trace Tech would be happy about that. Or if someone has a squished executable file, DL2 would just comp. that squish file right? Then when you want to unsquish it you can at any time with unsquish, then comp it again with DL2(?) I am in the process of unsqushing my stuff for when DL2 is out. Since I compress my backups, it sohuldn't takemuch more disk space to backup my unsquished stuff. I am eager and nervous at the same time about something liek DL2. Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 139 Sat May 15, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:25 EDT Todd, I was probably assuming that you are using Warp 9, which itself handles the fast-load process -- and does it better than the standard method. If you don't have Warp 9, you should buy a copy NOW. Run, don't walk, to your nearest Atari store (little humor in that, folks) and pick upa copy. Actually, you can buy Warp 9 from the Codeheads themselves (they're here in their own area) or from a mail-order dealer such as Computer Studio (highly recommended) or Toad (ditto). If you *do* have Warp 9, let Warp handle all the fast-load process by setting Warp's config option to Fastload. I confused you with a reference to the TT, since Warp does the same thing for the ST as it does for the TT. (There are two versions, one of the ST and one for the TT -- and one for the Falcon, shortly -- and you get the ST and TT versions when you buy Warp, on the same disk.) DataLite sounds wonderful, and I'd love to give it a try. I have enough HD space on my main system (1400 megs), but the other two Ataris can use all the help they can get. Fortunately, the big ST and the TT are networked, so they can share drives and files. Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 140 Sun May 16, 1993 ORA.TECH at 00:42 EDT Bad Clusters are different from lost clusters. Bad clusters don't result in a "Lost Cluster" File being created but are indications of physical disk damage. These clusters are marked as unusable in the FAT table. If a bad cluster was not found on a subsequent pass then one of several things is happening 1) the cluster in question may be what is known as "weak media" i.e. it reads fine sometimes but not others. It is still marked as unusable to the system or 2) You may have some phenomonon effecting data transmitted on the DMA bus to become corrupted. Thsi woudl give an occasional false bad cluster indication. Al - You're right, even if a sector is already mapped as bad DE will check every cluster. Because of things liek Image copies etc. you never can really be sure of the accuracy of a FAT based bad sector mapping. Todd - I'll answer DL2 question in the DL2 forem after this - There is no need to "turn DL2 off" at any time. It operates as a BIOS level device driver below the file system and is totally transparent to all applications, including file and disk management software. It operates in a completely different manner than Data Diet. There is no such thing as a DATAlited file, All applications see nothing but real uncompressed data and real programs. Although you could, you do not want to run both DD and DL2 at the same time. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 141 Sun May 16, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 07:12 EDT >A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 11:48 EDT >Joe, > >I don't know about the way DE handles it, but a disk-repair application will >often report "bad sector" when it reads a sector that has already been mapped >out. When it goes back to "fix" that sector, it finds that it really is >already mapped out, and so no fixing is needed. > >Al Al and ORA: But would it be that difficult to check the FAT first and compare the bad sectors to the table of maped bad sectors so as to not falsely give a message that something needs fixing? ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 142 Sun May 16, 1993 J.MEEHAN3 [>> Joe M << ] at 09:12 EST > Don't have a TT, so not sure what you mean by the Warp 9 < > thing. < Warp 9 is not just a TT thing, it works great on all the Atari 16/32 bit line. Sorry if I stepped into the middle of a conversation with a meaningless message. >> Joe M << ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 143 Mon May 17, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:59 EDT Joe, The bad-sector list is not necessarily accessible if the SCSI mapping handles it; it's invisible to many operations in software. Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 144 Wed May 19, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 05:55 EDT Al: I have an older non SCSI drive so it should be possible in my case but no big deal. I'll just keep a note to remind myself of this. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 145 Thu May 20, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 04:40 EDT A few minor comments about DE. A have a bad floppy disk. I asked DE to list the bad sectors and it did so. But I can't get DE to print a list of the bad sectors. I either have to use a paper and pencil or do a screen dump. After looking at the list of bad sectors on the floppy; I hit the cancel button; then I hit the close window button. Then I asked DE to reopen the window and it did so but the bar next to the close button was damaged. No big deal- everything still works. Something about finding so many bad sectors must scramble GEM- in a way that DE has no control over. A half hour later: I repeated the above. This time after closing the window with the close button and reopening with Alt W- the bar was OK but the close button didn't look right although it works fine. Hmmmmm- while I'm at it- if DE says for example that cluster 30 is bad- and I want to check it out with a sector editor- do I look at sector 60 (with a sector editor) since there are 2 sectors per cluster? I suspect that that is not the formula for determining the sector number. I would rather that DE in fact gives the bad sector number. I think I'll have to order Knife ST from Oregon's niffy new cataloge to dig into this further. I see in the cataloge that it will show an entire cluster at a time. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 146 Thu May 20, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 11:14 EDT Joe, The formula for converting a cluster number to a sector number is a bit more complicated than that. The first cluster starts after the last directory sector, but its number is 2 (sector numbers 0 and 1 don't exist). On a standard floppy disk you have: Boot sector #0 1st FAT #1-5 2nd FAT #6-10 Directory #11-17 1st Cluster (#2) #18-19 So to find a sector number from a cluster number, first subtract 2, then multiply by two and add 18. Cluster 30 would be sector ((30-2)*2) + 18 = 74. For other disks, you'll use a number other than 18. Diamond Edge shows you this number as "Start of Data Area". John ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 147 Thu May 20, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 18:40 EDT Bob, I don't know what's going on but boy, am I having a problem!!! I just had the motherboard replaced in my nieces 1040. It's running TOS 1.4 and 2.5 megs. Anyway, I had some trouble reading some DTP files so I ran a medic pass. Disk errors to be fixed. OK, fis errors. Ran the pass again and got FAT errors! 1 not = 2!!!! Ran it again and still had 103 Lostclus.dat files! To make the story short, I wiped the partition and restored from a backup made with DBII. A medic pass here shows no errors. However, when I try to run the DTP.PRG, I get a TOS error 35 from the desktop, or an error 66 (not an executable prg) from NeoDesk! The .PRG runs fine from the orig. floppy, so I deleted the copy on my hard drive and copied it over again from the orig. floppy. Same thing happens! Not executable, 66 error from NeoD or TOS error 35 from desktop! HELP! What the heck is going on??? Everything else, all other partitions seem to be fine!! I'm loosing it fast! Thanks, Matt ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 148 Thu May 20, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 19:29 EDT To those who remember me from before when I was posting in the Diamond Edge topic of problems with bombs, and it being a possible problem with Diamond Back 2, Diamond Edge, or DataDiet, well, in my o pinion it was none of them, just my setup. I have put more folders in my HD count, use POOLFIX, set my fastbits OFF. Now I can't get my system to bomb. I have not rebooted in a few days, doing stuff that would definetely have caused my system to bomb before, and now I have no problems. SO, in the end, it was just my setup. Thanks to everyone who gave advice. l8r. .. Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 149 Fri May 21, 1993 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 00:06 EDT Todd, I'm sure glad you got squared away with that system, you did have a time of it. Hang in there that's part of having one of these things. Frank ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 150 Fri May 21, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:25 EDT Matt, FAT corruption, maybe. The drive may need a complete reformat at the bit level, not the SCSI level. Al ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 151 Fri May 21, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 04:26 EDT Matt, Are you sure you're using TOS 1.4? Your symptoms sound a lot like you're using a drive with partitions greater than 16 megs with TOS 1.0 or 1.2. John ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 152 Fri May 21, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:55 EDT Al, Re: drive needing re-format at bit level.... Yeah, that's what I was affraid of. I _do_ have a very recent and full back up so it's just a 'down time' thing, especially since there is no way I know of to reformat only one of the partitions. (older Supra HD w/ Quantum drive) Oh well, will most likely do it tonight! You know what they say on that cable TV channel... " I want my DTP!" (Yeah, it was the DTP partition... 5 megs of fonts and 5 of files!) Boy I'm glad I believe in regular backups. Matt John, Yes, it's 1.4 TOS. Definitely. SYSINFO.PRG shows: TOS 1.04 (6-4-89) Gem Ver. 0.15 (6-4-89) AES ver. 1.40 Besides, the partition is only 11 meg. I think I'll just have to reformat the entire drive and restore. Don't know of any way to re-format just one partition. Also, 30 passes of map bad sectors (non-destructive _and_ destructive) show no bad sectors. Thanks, and sorry you won't be at the Ct. show, but I am glad I will be able to pick up a few things from Tomas! Matt ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 153 Sat May 22, 1993 ORA.TECH at 00:10 EDT Joe - Thanks to the suggestion of printing the bad clusters out. Good idea. The cosmetic problem you mentioned is fixed in the latest. Look at what John said about calculating teh logical sector number from a cluster number or refer to your Diamodn Edge manual. Matt - What kind of hard disk are you running? have you mapped out bad sectors yet?? If you have an area of the disk with weak media you could be seeing this kind of behavior. Since a clean restore from a DBII full backup would have put it in the smae area on the disk as where it was when you experienced the problems. Then if you deleted it and installed a fresh copy known good copy from floppy it would have landed in the same clusters. So if these happen to be weak and reading inconsistantly you could get that behavior. Remember to turn off ALL disk caching when mapping bad sectors, and it is advisable in cases like his to perform multiple passess. Great news Todd, now lets see if Matt can have a similar success. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 154 Sat May 22, 1993 K.VANDELLEN [Ken Van] at 07:43 EDT "Turn off all disk caching..." Another thing to keep track of. Ken ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 155 Sat May 22, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 08:12 EDT Matt: Could also be your hard drive headed "South". ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 156 Sat May 22, 1993 B.SALDANA1 [BOB S] at 20:09 EDT Bob- I have been using DE and was wondering generally how the mirror routine works. I get messages 75 days till next mirror and had been getting them 1 ,2,3,4,5,6, and so on till I changed it to mirror evry boot up. Will it reset itself. I know it's probably in the manual but I'm sort of lazy specially since it is a very intuitive prg. and after deframentation my hard drive seems to run better. Bob S. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 157 Sun May 23, 1993 J.KRZYSZTOW [JEFFREY] at 17:35 EDT Bob, I just had Diamond Edge save 83.99 megs of data!! This is a GREAT program!!! Sold for life on Oregon Research . Jeffrey A. Krzysztow Kansas City AtariFest'93 Coordinator ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 158 Sun May 23, 1993 A.MASON4 [Anna] at 18:06 EDT Bob S. Do you have an internal clock in your system that "keeps on ticking" when your computer is turned off? If not, that is probably the reason you are getting the message re: 75 days.....etc. Anna ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 159 Mon May 24, 1993 ORA.TECH at 14:10 EDT Ken - The problem with disk caching and mapping bad sectors is that when you ask for the information a second time, you receive the information in the cache(which hasn;t changed) rather than a physical reread of the disk. Totally defeats the purpose of mapping bad sectors. Bob - Diamodn Mirror 1.0 had a "problem" with the month rollover on some months in it's date calculation. V1.1 will be released with DE 1.10 in a week. Look for a patch here. Glad to hear it Jeff - P.S. Send me a mailing valid address for you, ] our brochure and newsletter bounced back. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 160 Mon May 24, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 15:52 EDT Bob, >... The problem with disk caching and mapping bad sectors ... Are you also referring to the cache in the MSTEs? Does that have to be turned off to? It seems like it does but I want to check first. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Monday 24 May 1993 at 04:37 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 161 Mon May 24, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 21:13 EDT Bob and D.STMARTIN: Thanks for the replies. Well, I am happy to say that it was _not_ the HD! I did follow your suggestion, Bob, and ran the mapping for 90 cycles over all partitions. 0 bad sectors, Yippee! What did happen, I can't say. I had a new mother board put into the 1040STf I bought for my niece. The dealer also transferred in the Z-RAM 2.5 meg board. It was after their work I had the problem. The dealer was telling me he thought it was my HD controller and let me borrow a new 1040STe to try at home, while they attempt to diagnose 'my' machine. I reformatted the drive, and restored from a back-up only 5 days old! Worked like a charm! (Yes, I believe in regular back ups!) Now he says it might be in the memory board. (upgrade) All I know is that as an end user, it worked fine before I gave it to them. I couldn't get any red shades on the color monitor, which is why I put it in the shop, but back ups and restores were just fine, as usual. (Thank you DE, DBII, and of course, Bob) Anyway, now that I am fully restored, and back on line, let's see what they say is at fault. Will keep you posted. Thanks again, and Bob, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the print run on Datalite. I'd _love_ to be able to pick it up at the CT show! Matt ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 162 Tue May 25, 1993 ORA.TECH at 00:02 EDT Brain - Yes, that means the MegaSTE cache or a Adspeed cache or any other cache capable of holding a sector's worth of data hostage. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 163 Tue May 25, 1993 B.SALDANA1 [BOB S] at 00:20 EDT Anna I have a Navarrone cartridge clock. I 've had the program about 3 weeks and I turn my computer off and on 2 or three times a day. I've swithced from mirroring every boot to once a day and was wondering If anything might be about to happen. I'm on 79 days till next mirror but everytime I turn on the computer it says on the boot mirroring the selected drives c,d,f (e drive is empty) Anyway I'm just kinda curious but not enough to read my manual! Bob S. P.S. It looks like Bob is aware of the sequence and correcting it as we speak. Looks like this could be turning into a full time job huh Bob especially since I plan to be upgrading Harlekin 2 and Superbase Pro and probably pick up TruPaint now that you have Speedo Dos. I noticed Atari Works can use Meta files for graphics does True Paint save in Gem picture files? ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 165 Wed Jun 02, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 01:34 EDT I have 7 partitions on my HD. The last partition is 92meg. I would like to grab 15megs of this to create a new partition. Is this possible and can I do it without scrubbing all 7 partitions? Can you describe how to do this with DE? I fixed that DOS error, I had a folder with illegal file names and they would not delete. Thanks for the help Bman ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 166 Wed Jun 02, 1993 ORA.TECH at 23:51 EDT Yes, you can convert the last 92 meg partiton into several partitions using the HD p[artitioning portion of DE and then yous th instal and rebuild one option for each of teh newly created partitions. The first six partitions will not be effected. Best regards, Bob@ORABest ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 167 Thu Jun 03, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 01:52 EDT I think it is great DE can repartition some areas without affecting other areas. I'll rememeber that! Todd ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 168 Wed Jun 02, 1993 ORA.TECH (Forwarded) You brought up an important danger of HDTK is that if you try to optimize a disk with errors on it you're toast. That's why DE requires a full medic pass. Look in the DE area for the answer to your partitioning question. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 169 Thu Jun 03, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] (Forwarded) What is HDTK? If it's Hard Disk Took Kit (TuneUp), you CAN'T optimize a disk with errors on it, because it checks for errors prior to optimizing, and will not let you continue until they're fixed. Of course, DE is a Rolls Royce and HDTK is a Volkswagon Beetle. :^) __ /erry .\\ay ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 170 Fri Jun 04, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 07:31 EDT Bob, I think you mentioned the other day that it's possible to split a partition into two without disturbing other partitions? You made it sound so easy that I tried it, following the instructions in section 3.4 of the manual. After the reboot, one of the new partitions I had created was there, but all the other partitions on that drive were gone - unrecognizable by the computer, even after I tried restoring SCSI and disk info from my Edge emergency disk. After about an hour I gave up and reformatted the drive, and then repartitioned it with Edge. Is there other information I should have looked into before I tried to split a partition? For instance, is it a bad idea to change a drive from 4 to 5 partitions? Or to add a partition when there's another drive in the SCSI chain? gnox ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 171 Fri Jun 04, 1993 ORA.TECH at 23:16 EDT gnox - You need to be careful when repartitioning. The scenerio I describe was changing the last partition on a disk into two news ones. This action does not effect the partition placement of any other partition. If you tried to split a partition in the middle or an action you took effected th XGM partition chain structure then you could easily end up with the result you got(like going from 4 to 5 partitions if you use HDX). Also you need to turn on partitions that are added by clicking on the "on" checkmark. --------------- ----- Important Safety Tip -------------------- You must be VERY careful that nothing you do changes the partition sector start and end of any partition you do not want rebuilt. Best regards, Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 172 Sat Jun 05, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 06:52 EDT Bob, re repartitioning, Thanks for clarifying that. I hope this will forewarn others who are tempted to do goofy things like I did. Fortunately even I am not goofy enough to try something like that without backing up first, so I didn't lose a single bit of data - only a couple of hours. Diamond Back to the rescue again. :) gnox ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 173 Mon Jun 07, 1993 ORA.TECH at 04:20 EDT A program to patch Diamond Edge V1.03 or V1.04 to Version 1.10 has been uploaded to Library 2. Th file number is 28983. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 174 Mon Jun 07, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 08:07 EDT What are the changes in 1.10 compared to 1.03? I know, I will know when I d/l it but just for those people a bit more conservative with their d/l dollars. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Monday 07 June 1993 at 08:58 a.m. ADT ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 175 Mon Jun 07, 1993 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 23:25 EDT Thanks, Bob! -Gerry ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 176 Tue Jun 08, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 04:11 EDT Bob, I'm just a bit confused. Excuse my stupidity but... after doing the upgrade from 1.03 -> 1.10 do I still need to keep the v1.03 .PRG and RSC files in the same directory as the new ones, or can I delete them? Also, can I delete the old v1.02_ 1.03.DAT file? I've already created the new mirror and disk.inf files. Thanks, Matt ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 177 Wed Jun 09, 1993 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 00:25 EDT Bob, I downloaded the patch and have a few questions: During the patch process, a window came up asking me to "enter word number 25705 of paragraph 16214 on page (and then the sentence ran outside the window box!). I clicked on the patch button anyway and it seemed to patch my version up to 1.10 anyway. So, what gives? I know the window was there for a validation process but this doesn't seem right. Do I now really have the upgraded version to 1.10? How can I tell, other than looking at the info box when I run Edge? As you know, I'm a registered (and happy) user. Also, your README notes recommend using the latest versions of Atari's software booter. I am using version 5.0 -- is this ok? Is there a later version and how might I obtain it. Actually, Sheldon Winick has recommended staying with 5.0 even if there's a newer version from Atari since "it it ain't broke, don't fix it." What do you think? - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Tuesday, June 8, 1993 8:35 am ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 178 Wed Jun 09, 1993 ORA.TECH at 01:49 EDT Brian - There are many many changes between V1.03/4 and yes they are explained in the file they include many enhancements(especially for Falcon owners) and a number of bug fixes. Regarding the imortance of upgrading, it is extremely important. It is always imortant to be using the most current version of all you software. To facilitate this for the user we have provided freely distributed patch programs for every version of Diamond Edge since it's introduction. We try to make it as easy as possible for all Diamond Edge owners to have the best version available. Matt - Yes, the old version is retained as V130.prg. You may discard it if you wish. Some people liek to archive old versions. Jason - Unless you recevied a message saying that the upgrade was verified, you don't have a correctly upgrade version, if you did then everthign is ok. The behavior you described is typical of a string overrunning it's alloted space in a resource. There are hundreds of randomly selected codewords, it's possible that I counted wrong and the random generator pointed beyond the bounds of the strings. Just run it again to patch a backup and get a validated upgrade. Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 179 Wed Jun 09, 1993 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 02:20 EDT Bob, I sent E-Mail to you on upgrade problem but not sure you will get it as all of sudden Aladdin got flaky and I coundn't read the screen. The upgrade seems to have taken as the new dialog box in 'partition' for boot sectors is there and Desk Info says 'v1.10' but got message during validation process reads "ERROR VALIDATING UPGRADE - 0X10a6 - PLEASE CONTACT OREGON RESEARCH". The upgrade was done to a copy of my backup floppy copied to the Hard Disk (for purpose of space). Gonna' see if this message gets out. Regards, Frank ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 180 Wed Jun 09, 1993 P.GRIFFITH2 [PGRIF] at 21:58 EDT FRANK, I had the same problem and called Bob. The first thing he asked me was whether I had "squished" DE with DC Squish. I had and after unsquishing DE, the patch worked perfectly. paul ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 181 Wed Jun 09, 1993 G.GRAHAM9 [Glenn] at 22:35 EDT The patch worked fine for me. Do you mean, Bob, that the word to be typed is different in each run of the program? What a great idea! This program has been well worth the price for the work it does. I guess it's high time I sent this registration card (dated 12/30/92) I filled out long ago. I'm notorious for bying software and never mailing this stuff. I truly hate using the Canadian mail service. I only had 1 small problem soon after bying it at Compuworld here in Toronto. I lost my entire Utilities directory during a much needed defrag. Lucky I had backups of all of it due to Seagate sticktion problems in my Megafile 60. I attribute the loss to running it with a software cache. I should have known better as I already knew that's not recommended on I*M machines either. I now only use TosFix, FoldrXXX and Warp9. No more problems using Edge that way. Well I guess I've got to splurge on stamps instead of software for a while. About sticktion (if that's how we spell it) I find if I ALWAYS park the HD at every shutdown, I rarely have a problem anymore. Yes, the reg. for DBII will be mailed as well _2 birds with 1 stamp_ ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 182 Wed Jun 09, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 23:41 EDT Glenn, Have you considered just leaving your hard drive on? Have you seen the commercial where they say the worst thing you can do to your car is to start it? Well, that's an understatement when talking about hard drives. It takes a LOT of torque to get a hard drive up to speed. If you're shutting it down every day, you're likely shortening its life. And if you leave it on all the time, no more stiction problem! :^) __ /erry .\\ay ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 183 Thu Jun 10, 1993 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 02:22 EDT Bob, Paul, Paul, thanks for the info, however I don't use any packer or squishers etc.. just don't trust em' (G). I got it tho. Bob, I tried 4 times before I went to a complete bare system and when I did I discoverd that this patch was adding a DMIRROR to my auto folder because the one that was there I do not use anymore and use from the desktop once a week when I'm backing, checkin', optimizien', and praying. After removing the PRX and the new PRG from the AUTO folder the upgrade worked. Now all I have to do is copy over to my regular EDGE folder. Nothing in the Doc's about the DMIRROR in the Auto folder being added during upgrade. Regards, Frank ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 184 Thu Jun 10, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 03:34 EDT A quick note For Updating Diamond Edge For Squish Users Unsquish Diamond Edge before trying to update!!! It won't update otherwise. It took me 2 trys to figuare that one out ;) Bman ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 185 Thu Jun 10, 1993 K.VANDELLEN [Ken Van] at 07:55 EDT I've been leaving my HDs on lately, but the last few days we've had thunderstorms and TS warnings, so I've shut down at those times. I don't think it would be good for the system to go on and off everytime the power flickers. A squisher shouldn't cause any risk if you don't squish your only copy of a program. You can always unsquish or copy in a good copy of the program from your original. Ken Van Dellen d8^) ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 186 Thu Jun 10, 1993 NTACTONE [Ron Hunter] at 19:52 EST >> A squisher shouldn't cause any risk if you don't squish your << >>only copy of a program. You can always unsquish or copy in a good << >>copy of the program from your original. << I haven't any experience with Diamond Edge, being squished, but there ARE some programs (GFA Basic 3.5 is one) that just DON'T like being compressed. Beats me why, but it introduces various 'strangenesses' into the functions. I would think that leaving Edge unsquished would be something to consider, since that is about the LAST type program you want problems of any kind with. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 187 Thu Jun 10, 1993 C.ALLEN17 [Cliff] at 22:33 EDT The update work flawlessly on my system. Thanks ORA.TECH Ken Van Dellen d8^ After purchasing an American Power UPS, I do not find a need to turn off my system even during a t-storm. Cliff (Ashevillite) ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 188 Thu Jun 10, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 23:49 EDT Bob, My upgrade also contained the error message to contact you - but it wrote a version 1.10 to my drive that _seems_ to work perfectly. The 1.03 copy was not squished (but I remember getting an error message when I upgraded _that_ verision too!) I figured it was a quirk in the upgrade software - the patch program should _NEVER_ write a seemingly working copy of the program if it _actually_ detected some problem - and used 1.03 for months without any problem. Is this something I should be worried about and is there any way I can tell if my 1.10 version is 'good' or not? John E. Gniewkowski Editor, GEnieLamp ST ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 189 Fri Jun 11, 1993 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 00:30 EDT To all If you are getting an error message on the update of DE during the validation process I found that if you remove the DMIRROR.PRX or PRG from the AUTO folder it ran just fine and even installed a new DMIRROR.PRG in the said AUTO folder. This may work on your systems as well - Take a chance. Using TT with 3.06 - no squishes or compressions goodies being used. Frank ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 190 Sat Jun 12, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 07:03 EDT Bob, thanks for the update - works great! Ron, I've always had Edge Squished with no problems. I wouldn't pack Mirror though. Ken, ditto what Cliff said about the American Power UPS. As Sheldon Winick told me, it's the most cost-effective insurance you can get for your computer system. gnox ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 191 Sat Jun 12, 1993 EXPLORER.5 [Robert Goff] at 14:04 EDT >Regarding the importance of upgrading, it is extremely >important. It is always important to be using the most >version of all you software. I guess then I should have been using the buggy version of WordPerfect they issued that wouldn't run on TTs? Or the version 6 of the ICD booter software that causes problems with various and sundry software? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is good advice. Just remember that if you have outdated versions of software in your system and you upgrade one part, some of the outdated parts may break. |) | |)O|) Robert Goff ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 192 Sun Jun 13, 1993 M.SHANNON at 01:40 EDT Bob, Hi! I just used the patch on my 1.04 to goto 1.10 (using ICD ver 6.0.7) and after I ran the patch I got a hex-code-note saying I had a problem. Well, I looked into my folder and found that the .PRG and .RSC files had changed sizes and the MIRROR.PRG was bytes smaller... SO I booted the new file and WHALLAH! Version 1.10 at my command. Anyway I'm a happy user and wanted to pass this on to you cause I don't have a clue as to why I go a NO-GO on the verify pass even tho the upgrade to effect. Also, since reading your disclosure on that other file compression program I'd like to trade it in on DATALITE. Is it available and can I get a discount for sending you my master disk for that "other" program? Can you see your way clear to twist my disk? Hopefully ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 193 Sun Jun 13, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 05:59 EDT M.SHANNON, When you refer to a "disclosure on that other file compression program", are you thinking of the next-to-last paragraph in the DE 1.10 README file? There's a small mistake in the second sentence, where the word "normally" should really be "otherwise." If on the other hand you have some new information, perhaps you could share the secret with fellow owners of the "other file compression program" by posting it in Cat 2 Top 12? Bob, Speaking of the DE 1.10 README file, can you clarify that last paragraph of it a little? It seems to say that copy/backup programs which use a read-to-EOF method instead of a filesize-checking method can produce copies that will pass DE's validation test even though they have been corrupted. Can you describe an actual scenario where this would happen? How likely is it to happen? (More likely than a sector going bad, for instance?) If it's not a very rare occurrence, and there's no way to prevent (or detect) it, it's hard to see why Atari would consider the read-to-EOF method legal. (It's not condidered _il_legal, is it?) Sorry if I'm confused, but maybe I'm not the only one! gnox ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 194 Sun Jun 13, 1993 K.VANDELLEN [Ken Van] at 15:39 EDT gnox, I'll have to ask Sheldon about it. Ken Van ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 195 Sun Jun 13, 1993 S.FARWIG [STAN] at 17:51 EDT I downloaded the patch for 1.03 to 1.10 last night and ran into problems on my FALCON. In following the instructions for creating a new emergency disk: Running DE from the floppy resulted in A. "Save disk info" brought up two prompts on the last partition, 1. FAT does not match disk size, run Medic etc. 2. Boot sector not recognized (or something like that). Medic reported no problems found. Running DE from the HD copied the last partition fine onto the foppy. B. running the "Save SCSI info" from both the floppy and the HD caused the system to freeze after choosing the drives and clicking on the file selector. What have I done wrong this time? ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 196 Sun Jun 13, 1993 R.MORROW10 [Bob M.] at 18:09 EDT I just upgraded my DE v1.03 to 1.10 and got a failure notice when I was running the upgrade program. (code 0x7993) However, when I ran DE after that, it indicated that it was v1.10 and works fine. After running the patch program, what version should Diamond Mirror be? (mine says v1.1) Or is it not affected? ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 197 Sun Jun 13, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 20:02 EDT Bob, After your upgrade, Diamond Edge should be a v1.10 (it was previously v1.03 or v1.04) and Diamond Mirror should be a v1.1 (it was previously v1.0), so it looks like you met success, despite your failure messages. __ /erry .\\ay ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 198 Sun Jun 13, 1993 D.CHARTER [Duane] at 22:22 EDT Bob, Just thought I would let you know that I was able to upgrade to version 1.10 with no problem. I actually had to patch from 1.02 ? to 1.03 and then to 1.10. I had to put everything in the correct directory and do the update...no problems at all. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 199 Sun Jun 13, 1993 M.SHANNON at 22:50 EDT gnox yes I am and I am very interested as a result in this LITE idea. You? Morgan Terry, Thanks for the info. I was wondering my own self... (sigh of relief) Morgan ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 200 Sun Jun 13, 1993 A.MASON4 [Anna] at 22:59 EDT Bob, Thanks for uploading v1.10 of DE. I installed it today without any problems. Anna ;-) ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 201 Tue Jun 15, 1993 K.VANDELLEN [Ken Van] at 06:59 EDT Bob, I've had trouble doing the upgrade from v1.03 to v1.10. When I run DEPATCH, I get an info screen that calls for V103.RSC, but my upgrade pack has V110.RSC, which the README file calls for. Should I rename it? When I first tried to do the upgrade, I got error 0xaac2. I copied a good copy of everything into my folder and tried again several times. Now it has trouble renaming the .RSC file (I think). Turning DD on or off makes no difference. Ken Van ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 202 Tue Jun 15, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 07:44 EDT Morgan, Yes, I'm interested in DataLite and am looking forward to seeing some user reports on it. However I don't think it was Bob's intention in the README file to criticize a competitor's product - (right, Bob?) He was just reminding Data Diet owners of the crucial parameter setting which is explained on p.25 of the original DD manual. DD/DE users can easily mess up their files if they ignore that parameter, but will not have problems if they set it properly or use the current version's default setting. gnox ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 203 Tue Jun 15, 1993 ORA.TECH at 15:33 EDT John - If you received a validation error message, then the patched file does not calculate to the correct CRC. I.E. although it may appear to perform correctly the patched file is not exactly what it should be. There are many reasons that th patch could fail to validate, it only takes a single bit fliped by DMA noise to do it. Try patching another backup copy, if it fails again, return your disk for complimentry upgrade. M.SHANNON, Bob Morrow - See above. Do not use a patched file that failed the validation. even though it appears to function normally. Diamond Mirror will be V1.1 after the patch. One note on upgradeing, if you have DMIRROR.PRG in you auto folder set to read- only status, then the patch will fail. gnox - The read-to-EOF file is a common method uses for ages to read files. There is nothing wrong with that practice by normal programs where absolute data integrity is not vital. However, in programs such as DB2 or DE whose job it is to protect the integrity of the data and detect situations where that integrity is comprimised, it is not a suitable method. In the presence of disk corruption, files can be inappropriately truncated in the FAT table. Read-to- EOF programs will read in these files happily and report no errors even though they didn;t get all of the file. Because of the requirement for absolute data integrity, DB2 and DE require the knowledge of the files actual size so that it can validate that all of the file was succesfully read. If a EDGE of DB2 validation file was created on the original ucorrupted copy, then even cirrupted copies generated by other file copy programs from truncated fils would be identified as corrupted during a validation. Stan - What TOS version are your running on your Falcon? Do you have an internal IDE drive?? Best regards, Bob@ORA ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 204 Tue Jun 15, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 21:53 EDT Bob, Could changing the status of a flag (such as the fastload bit) cause the CRC check to fail? That could explain the problems that some people are having, especially since the patch seems to be successful, save for the error message. __ /erry .\\ay ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 205 Tue Jun 15, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 22:45 EDT Ken Van- If I remember correctly, both the PRG and RSC files have to be in the directory with the upgrade patch files for it to work. During the patching, these old files will be renamed V103.PRG and V103.RSC respectively, automatically. You can then archive them or delete them at your whim. Matt ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 206 Tue Jun 15, 1993 S.FARWIG [STAN] at 23:23 EDT Bob: Thanks for your reply. The TOS is 4.04 and the Falcon does have the 80m IDE drive...why an IDE I have no idea...cheaper? If I remember rightly, I did the patch on my Mega. One other happening...I had a badly fragmented driver, so I backed it up and did an optimization. The optimization seems to have gone well (I'm doing this from that drive), but during the optimization horizontal portions of the screen broke up in strange multi-colored patterns (80/256 resolution). All help appreciated Stan ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 207 Tue Jun 15, 1993 K.VANDELLEN [Ken Van] at 23:31 EDT Bob, I'll try the patch again with a fresh copy of Mirror. Maybe I botched that up when the first try didn't work, and I then replaced only EDGE.PRG and EDGE.RSC, but not MIRROR. Ken Van ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 208 Wed Jun 16, 1993 ORA.TECH at 00:43 EDT Excellent point Terry, if the Fastload bit or TTmemory bit was changed from the original that would definately cause the CRC on the patch to fail. ------------ Category 33, Topic 3 Message 209 Wed Jun 16, 1993 M.SHANNON at 01:55 EDT gnox, I'm not sure I got that (clarified) to I have to turn DD OFF before optimizing with DE or can I optimize without worry using DE? Is that crucial parameter D_ized or Original. Am I asking the wrong person on the wrong TOP? Should this be confined to E-MAIL? Morgan Bob, OK you've got my attention, when can I send you my money? Morgan ------------