========================================================================= (C) 1993 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 27 Sat Mar 06, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 01:34 EST Sub: DTP-Marketing and Pricing your efforts Most of us have a great deal of time and money invested in our DTP systems. But how do you market and price your work? This is where we should discuss the business aspects of DTP 201 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 1 Sat Mar 06, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 01:34 EST Ok, I'm trying to use the equipment I have to make a few bucks, in fact it would be nice to make a lot of bucks but I'll try not to be greedy.... How can a person position themself to make a profit on the different types of work that can be done. Even some of the simplest flyers can take a considerable amount of time to create. If you use Outline Art or other graphics program you are spending even more time on something that you might not give you the return you need. Getting the work in the first place eats up even more time. As you get involved in even more complicated projects such as forms from hell, newsletters, and brochures you are working pretty hard. What do you charge for these kinds of things? Where do you find the people that need them, expensive newspaper ads, phone solicitation, door to door begging. Ok people, start talking, tell us your stories, how you do it. We all need each other here. You can do a great service to your fellow AtariUser by letting us in on things we can do to make it in a business arena. Steve Blackburn AtariUser Magazine ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 2 Sat Mar 06, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 02:00 EST Steve, there's a whole RT devoted to this subject. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 3 Sat Mar 06, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 06:36 EST Dorothy is referring to the Home Office HOSB RT BUT we started discussing this here because we are specifically interested in other Calamus people making a living in this manner. Nathan @ DMC ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 4 Sat Mar 06, 1993 J.MEEHAN3 [>> Joe M << ] at 09:47 EST Steve, You might want to stop in at topic 20 in category 16 and read message 165 and a few following. This subject is being discussed right now. As Dorthy suggested, the DTP RoundTable (590) and the Home/Office RoundTable (370) will have a more general view to offer. The DTP market is not Atari specific. >> Joe M << ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 5 Sat Mar 06, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger] at 12:55 EST Well there is also discussion about this topic in the DTP roundtable, but I do have two items: 1) Getting friendly with local printers is a good idea. Some do typesetting etc. in house, but even they will sometimes give referrals. (Also since most of what you do will end up there, it is a good place to learn what printers require, what their capabilities are, etc.) 2) If you are interested in a pricing guide, Brenner Information Group (619- 538-0093) put out the "pricing Guide for Desktop Publishing Services." It is fairly complete and includes a whole section on pricing concepts--i.e. factors affecting price, pricing techiques, pricing strategy, estimating, etc.--along with pricing tables for your area. One fairly common misteak I see is the undervalueing of work performed. Many people starting off in DTP are doing on the side and so they don't have to live off of it. The therefore under price the jobs the take, often buy a great deal. If DTP is a hobby, you can do this. If you are happy making $0.23 an hour you can do this. If you want to earn a living, you can't. --Roger ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 6 Sun Mar 07, 1993 ATARIUSER at 01:45 EST The reason for this topic is for those of us who are trying to sustain a business using Calamus (or other DTP programs in the Atari arena if desired). I didn't know of any other area on Genie that delt with this subject, but it doesn't negate the need for discussion with those of us who have the distinction of using the Atari as their platform. I was hoping that this topic would really take off considering how much traffic there is in the DMC catagory. I mean, there are a lot of people here working real hard to master Calamus and create really quality output but there is very little discussion as to what you do with all this info. We are spending a lot of money and time to accomplish something and I'm sure that most of us are not doing it to fill a scrap book. There should be a lot of traffic in this topic, especially if some of you old pro's decide to share some of your valuable experience. If not, then I made a mistake in creating the topic and it will die. I just think there is a real need for those of us with the same interests to discuss the next step in our development and I know for sure that if this topic takes a reasonable step forward that it will be of interest to many. I just cannot believe that all the people who rattle on about delineated (sp) tabs, master pages and the like will not want to know what to do with all this information once they get a hang of it. But hey, I might be wrong...I hope not! Steve Blackburn AAtariUser ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 7 Sun Mar 07, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 02:26 EST Steve, I wasn't trying to discourage this discussion with that comment, I just wanted to make sure that all were aware of other resources here for DTP professionals. Most of my own DTP work is done gratis. I volunteer to publish my local public school's 600+-entry student directory, my church and user group newsletters, and various flyers for friends' businesses. Occasionally, I get a DTP job that actually pays. And yes, I use Calamus for all of them. ;-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 8 Sun Mar 07, 1993 W.DAVIS20 [Bill] at 03:05 EST Steve, Great topic! I don't have a lot to say about it except that I am interested in this idea and hope to get something started someday. Maybe even this year. You are right that each job can talk lots of time, not to mention creativity. I have always thought that I would start out charging by giving a quote price for each job separetly based on how much time I think it would take a expert to complete. Say I think a flyer would take an expert 1hr. An expert can charge $35 an hr or more. It might take me 1 1/2hrs. I'll probably charge $25 because it should be done in 1 hr and as I'm just starting out, I should give good deals. $10 per hr less is a good deal. Not a big profit, but a start. D.A., Yes but is it for Atari? Nathan, Calamus? I've never looked at it. Do we have to be limited to that software here or can we be users of other Atari software? BTW I use Timeworks. Can you give me reasons to take a look at Calamus? How much is does it cost? Bill D. PS To all! I am with Steve! I would really like a place just for ATARI DTPublishers. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 9 Sun Mar 07, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 08:23 EST Bulletin board policy does not allow us to discuss all DTP products or even all Atari products here. In particular, Soft Logik has their own RT and would not be pleased. :-) So I;m afraid I have no choice but to limit the dicusssion to those specifically using Calamus, any version. Bill ... Lou Rocha (ST.LOU) used Timeworks for years. He now uses Calamus. I'll leave it to him to offer his reasons. Regardless of the software that you do use, I believe that this discussion can be of benefit to us all. Sincerely Nathan@DMC ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 10 Sun Mar 07, 1993 J.MEEHAN3 [>> Joe M << ] at 09:43 EST Message 8 Sun Mar 07, 1993 W.DAVIS20 [Bill] > Calamus? I've never looked at it. Do we have to be limited >to that software here or can we be users of other Atari software? BTW >I use Timeworks. Can you give me reasons to take a look at Calamus? I don't think anyone is limited to Calamus here but having started with TimeWorks, I can tell you there is a whole new world out there in Calamus. It will take a while to learn, but once you do there will be no looking back. Better quality, and more versatility will sell you. I'll let someone from Calamus give you current prices I don't know them, but they are not cheap. Calamus is a professional program with a professional price. Don't feel bad if you decide not to get it, of to opp for the less versatile version 1.09. You are still welcome. >> Joe M << ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 11 Sun Mar 07, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 11:55 EST Thanks for the invite Nathan :-) Yes, it is true I used Timeworks for years. In fact, I used it exclusively for a year when I had already purchased Calamus. I know that a new version 2 of TWDTP is now available and there are info files in the library. However, my own needs have outgrown the limitations of TWDTP and its non-scalable fonts. Personally, I have much greater freedom to control my DTP environment with Calamus and I don't have the limitations of GDOS fonts. I have become as comfortable with Calamus as I was with TWDTP (3 years of use) and other DTP programs. Although Calamus takes longer to learn, its power in the areas of layout and supported file formats has been worth it. I would suggest that Bill and others who are interested download the CAL_FEAT.TXT (#24155) file in our library. It gives a head to head comparison of Calamus 1.09N to Calamus SL. In reading this file, you will also get a very clear idea of the features in Calamus and can easily compare them to the program(s) they now use. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 12 Sun Mar 07, 1993 JOHN.KING.T [JOHN KING T] at 15:30 EST Lou/Nathan, I was a PageStream user, even after I bought Calamus. One day PageStream could not do what I wanted so I finally unwrapped my Calamus. That was three years ago and I have not looked back since. As have so many of us, I have graduated to SL. It is the closest I have come to falling in love in decades. :~} JKT ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 13 Sun Mar 07, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 17:12 EST King, how long was the courtship? :-) Some folks learn SL as easy as falling off a log, others need to woo for a longer time . ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 14 Sun Mar 07, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 17:36 EST I held off in purchasing Calamus 1.09N and made do with Timeworks for the longest time because of fear of the learning curve. Finally, I had no choice, as I was publishing in German and Timeworks was inadequate in its font characters. I bought Calamus and was surprised to find myself well up to speed after about one week of practice. I still don't utilize every single feature of Calamus, and from time to time I learn or discover a new trick, but I can do most of the DTP activities which present them- selves easily. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 15 Sun Mar 07, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 17:37 EST Steve: I've come to the point where I look for newsletters. There are several reasons for this; a.) Newsletters come back around on some form of scheduled basis thereby creating some form of regular cash flow ("cow"?), b.) once the initial layout is done you can invest your creativity in graphics, design and snazzy ads (which is fun), c.) the folks that want newsletters invariably want brouchures, flyers, coupons, etc. and you're well positioned to meet that need without a lot of effort -- you know the client, you don;'t have to market your buns off to them, and can keep your charges realistic because you don't have to do these things. I very quickly found that the brouchure, booklet, coupon, flyer stuff was marketing (translation: non-revenue) intensive and was a "flash in the pan". There are many service oriented businesses that can benefit from newsletters; dance, exercise, karate/judo, crafts schools and ANY business that feels it's important to keep touch with their clientele and knows that if you can develop an effective refferal system through a customer base your business can become self-sustaining. I've developed a direct mail piece that targets this market and lays it out for the owner. It can be very cost effective as well -- you may not need to resort to mailing at all, you simply hand out "this months newsletter" when you see your customers and direct mail to those that have "fallen off the wagon". If you'd like, I'm willing to F-Mail the brouchure to you. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 16 Sun Mar 07, 1993 D.GORDON2 [DENNIS] at 17:39 EST Here's an excerpt from the "Computer Generated Art" section of the "Graphic Artists Guild Handbook - Prices & Ethical Guidelines" Seventh edition; available from: Graphic Artists Guild 11 West 20th St. New York, NY 10010 (212) 463-7730 _______________________________________ | Comparative Hourly Creative Fees for | | Computer Artists and Designers: | | | | Desktop Publishing Per Hour| | ------------------ --------| | | | Art Direction...................$50 | | Charts and Graphs................45 | | Consultation.....................70 | | Graphic Design...................45 | | Illustration.....................70 | | Layouts..........................45 | | Photo Retouching................145 | | Production.......................35 | | Training.........................70 | | Typesetting......................40 | --------------------------------------- This book contains a plethora [of pinatas - name the movie] of info on project pricing, contractual considerations and related subjects, and such useful knowledge as: The Comparative Design Project for Stationery System Using *Existing* Logo.................$12,000 for large company Of course that includes pencils, Bristol Board and Xacto Knife blades :-) Seriously, after browsing this book, I've had to admit that my wife is right: I charge too damn little for what I do. I usually quote on a per job basis with a P.I.T.A. (Pain In The Ass) multiplier, based on the amount of client indecision, redos, late night phone calls and hand holding necessary to get the job done. I used to do a lot in trade too. Once had an open account at the Belden Deli here, where I could take my friends for dinner, and mightily impress them when I'd sign the tab like some big shot. Of course, that was back in the 80's when we all lived like Frusen Glaze (sp) fools. In the 90's it's forget the trades, gimme the cash.... Anyways, I like that we have our own Calamus-specific pricing topic. It removes the credibility factor when dealing with cross-platform topics. My brother in law just bought a printing company and my sister in law, in a mid- life career change kinda thing, wants to get into this DTP thing to help out. Since I'm the closest thing to an "expert" (haha) she can trust in the field, I've been counseling her and attending Mac seminars on publishing. Jeez, the new Macs (all 5 or 10 of 'em) are getting cheap. Hope Atari notes this....Anyways, she comes over to the house last week and is thumbing through the stack of DTP detritus that's never very far from where I'm working, and she's oohing and aahing over how cool everything looks from the HPIV, when she notices my lowly ST, and in that voice we all have heard before says "Oh you have an *Atari* keyboard (sic)! I know, it's reverse snobbism, right? You want to show that you don't need a really good computer to put out neat stuff, right?" Well no and yes. I'm a musician/typesetter trying to support my family doing the two things I really enjoy, and poverty keeps me from having the TT/VGA/24 bit color setup that would look a lot cooler...but yeah, now that she mentioned it, there is a certain pleasure in producing stuff on my l'il Volksputer that *qualitatively* is equal to or better than anything coming out of my colleagues' super charged 486 whatevers. Unfortunately my smug satisfaction is about to hit the brick wall of high tech reality, so I'd better get with some of these newfangled Falcons or something... Well I managed to get this post to an acceptable "Sunday Blab" length, so that oughta do it for now.... ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 18 Sun Mar 07, 1993 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 22:51 EST I can understand someone wanting to have a topic like this in this RT. In the DTP or HOSB RTs, an Atarian would be swamped with help/opinions from Macers and DOSers, and unable to get the info "from the Atari trenches" (aka how to convince the rest of the world I can do this work with my ST as good as s/he can with that Mac). Now there are topics like this in the SoftLogik RT, where Atarians and Amigoids can share a common perspective, but then they can't include Calamus in the discussion too easily, huh? So maybe if this topic is from the ST'ers point of view in the DTP business world, it could stay? mike.k ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 19 Sun Mar 07, 1993 ISD [Mario] at 23:21 EST The biggest problem I have found with pricing is this; a client wants a 1 page ad done for them. Ok you say $50 for 1 page. The client then assumes that that is a flat rate ... This kind of pricing is not something that is healthy for your business you have to understand that to accurately price a job you need to know EXACTLY how much work it entails. a one page ad can cost any where from $25 to $1,000,000 or more (this figure may seem ridiculous but remember this, Each job is unique some require scans, some require editing some require creative copywriting etc,... Price each job to its merits and your own respective skills. To improve your skills take classes, buy reference materials, and keep your eyes open to new ideas. Keep a sketchbook and clippings book for playing with design. Mario @ DMC Publishing ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 20 Mon Mar 08, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 09:15 EST David or any of you, please consider uploading any kind of schedule that you use, to library 30. I imagine that very few of us are competitive to each other because while there are a few thousand of us, there are millions of them. ;-) Nathan@DMC ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 21 Mon Mar 08, 1993 S.RAMIREZ [Sam] at 23:12 EST Hi, I think this is a great topic and it is long overdue. I have visited the HOSB DTP category and while I did receive some valuable information, often the discussion there dealt with software specific issues. Can someone recommend a source where I can buy Avery Clear Laser Labels #5660 at a good price? I bought some about a year ago and paid around $35 for a box of 50 sheets (30 labels per sheet). The price might have been higher but I don't remember exactly how much. This leads to my next question. How much would be a fair price to charge for doing customized mailing labels? Last year I printed some for my Wife and she loves them. Since she began using them on all our correspondence, her friends have asked here where they can get them! They have stated that they would like to have me make some for them (for a fee ofcourse!%^) ) I realize that I can't compete with many of the already established mailing label businesses since they charge less than a penny per label. I figure that just to pay for the clear labels I would have to charge around 2.3 cents per label and this does not include my profit! The thing that appeals to my wife's co-workers/friends is that I can put just about any graphic they provide me with on the labels. I just want to know what this personal touch is worth. Anyone out ther have a clue? Thanks, Sam Ramirez ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 22 Mon Mar 08, 1993 S.RAMIREZ [Sam] at 23:28 EST Woops! My last message asks how much would be fair to charge for mailing labels. What I meant was Return Address labesl. Sam ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 23 Mon Mar 08, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 23:32 EST Hi Dorthy, I do appreciate knowing about the other topics available, and I did check it out (at least the DTP RtT). There was some interesting advice there and some disturbing messages as well. Seems there are employers (surprise, surprise) out there that don't appreciate the skill that is involved in the whole process of creating printed materials. Some seem to think that the hardware and software can do all the work. That mindset is a hurdle for someone thinking about DTP as a career. The way the economy is these days people are not always wanting to pay the freight for us artsy-craftsy types. This means we are going to need a meat-and-potatoes approach to sustaining some kind of income level. Concentrating on specific areas in your sales approach is one item, and standardizing your production procedures is another necessity (templates, master pages, etc.) If that can be done then the majority of jobs can pay your overhead and the fun stuff can buy you some candy at the end of the week... As difficult as the whole process is, marketing yourself is still the most difficult aspect in any business. Too often talented people fail because they can't market their efforts, too often the smooth talkers with little ability eat all the candy... The article you wrote some time ago (on how you learned the ins and outs of marketing your educational products) was a very helpful and enlightening bit of information, the kind I hope we can dig up in this topic area. Bill, I think this topic will help you quite a bit. Give you some ideas to get you going. Calamus 1.09n would be a great program for you to work with. I've seen it advertised for a bit over a $100 and there are hundreds of fonts available here on Genie. When hooked up to an SLM printer it's very fast, perfect for doing production type of work, you can make changes on the fly and see the results right away. It will give you ALL the tools you need to do most of the b&w work that makes up a major percentage of work that is available and it's a fast program to work with. Then when you get to a certain point you might want to look at the upgrade to SL.... D.STMARTIN Yes, please do.... I would really appreciate you letting me see your brochure, I'll try to put some of mine up here as well. I'm using Aladin here and everytime I try to respond to a message it gives me the first message that I started. Am I doing something wrong here or is that just the way Aladin works? Mario Thats a good point, design and layout is one thing, writing the copy, adding special graphics etc. is another ball game and should be billed accordingly. Steve ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 25 Tue Mar 09, 1993 ATARIUSER at 01:13 EST I've seen custom labels from some office supply stores that go for around $60/500. That's about .12 each. These were return address labels for companies with their logos and other information. They are also printed on glossy material (extra for the fancier stuff). It might not worth it to do it for much profit but you could lay it out for them, give them an address where they could have it printed themselves and just charge them a modest design fee, also saving you the footwork to the printer. You could do the same thing as an "extra" for people you are doing other work for, giving them a little more for their money. Creating a master page in Calamus (with piping from frame to frame) would be fairly painless. I think there might be a file up here somewhere that would do just that but I'm not positive. Good Luck, Steve Blackburn AtariUser ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 26 Tue Mar 09, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 08:22 EST My original competitive upgrade offer stands, US $95.00 for Calamus 1.09N from any other DTP package on the Atari and you can keep that other package! Once you learn Calamus, you'll never go back. ;-) Solid posts here. Keep them coming. David made an excellent suggestion in Topic 20 referring to sharing and comparing working layouts. I have a private library #43 that could be used for this purpose if you all felt that library #30 was to accessible. I would have to INVITE in anyone that was participating to 43 and I am willing to do so if you all wish or we could simply use 30. Nathan@DMC ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 27 Tue Mar 09, 1993 S.LIVERSIDGE [STEVE L] at 20:49 EST One of the big problems I always found when I did art & design work (this was pre-DTP: I bought type from a type supplier, and photo work from a stat house) was that you were always competing with the customer's neice or nephew, who were art students, and would invariably do it for one-tenth of your price. I suspect that the situation hasn't changed much: you're still competing with a non-professional who will undercut you, and produce a substandard job. And the pity is that the client won't know it's substandard. Then again, maybe it's just that all my clients were retail scum. ("Scum" sounds a bit harsh, but looking back, I recall that the more professional the customer, the more they appreciated professionalism.) ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 28 Wed Mar 10, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 01:05 EST Hi people. Geesh, these topics just keep popping up faster than I can update the topics list. Thanks, Steve, for starting it! I just uploaded a sample contract form, "Confirmation of Assignment" to lib. 30, file #27999. The contract is one of two that I use, the other being less formal for "casual" jobs. For professional and commercial clients, I prefer this more formal contract approach. Often, upon presentation, I may notice a raised eyebrow or two, but as Steve stated earlier, profes- sionals and managers appreciate and indeed, _expect_ professionalism in return for their money. As an aside, I just finished my yearly general ledger audit (so I can pay my @!x%!! taxes) and was once again shocked at the price of doing business. For those of you _even thinking_ about selling your services, PLEASE take the time to set up a business "system". That includes the obvious: maintaining an accurate set of "books" and learning your state's/ province's tax laws. beyond that, you will also need to build a business plan (goals); an operations system (forms, databases, etc.); a marketing strategy (plan); and a method of presentation (portfolio, haircut :-). You will be amazed at what the start-up costs are for doing business. Even if you are running your Atari out of your den, the cost of hardware, software, and supplies can really add up. I should know - I have had expendatures of nearly $20,000 in the last 2 years - just setting up and running my personal publishing and service business. keep track of _everything_ and weigh each expendature (time OR money) before committing. Let me know what you think - I solicit _any_ feedback. Doug7 Interface Support Services Minneapolis, MN. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 29 Wed Mar 10, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger] at 01:10 EST Steve, The situation has changed, it is worse. Since so many people have computers and DTP software, there is a lot of people doing "design" work. The work produced ranges from very good (some people seem to have a natural "eye", and some people study hard) to horrible. (Of course with DTP you no longer have a typesetter's expertise to help out, and when it comes to photos, I've seen some "home made" scanned in ones that I couldn't tell if they were right side up or not.) And many people do charge much less for work than someone trying to make a living has to. (Even some on the ones trying to make a living at DTP.) On benefit is that some work that was traditionally done with a typewriter, press type, and rubber cement, does look much nicer because of the equipment, and is much easier to handle. It is much nicer to get a page as one sheet of 300 dpi printout, than as a collection of little scraps of paper assembled without a layout sheet or light table. --Roger ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 30 Wed Mar 10, 1993 K.MILLER69 [Kyle Miller] at 02:30 EST John, Kudos for starting this topic! You experts!, I have seen people passing what to charge per hour, and Mario told us that a lot of it depends on the job. My question (and many more to come) is that how does one know how much to charge for the work they do and have the customer agree? In other words, I don't want to tell someone it will costs them $50 to do an ad and they look at my work and exclaim, "That, $50! You think that's worth $50." Also, these prices people are passing around; is this pricing for work done on 300dpi devices or work output from bureaus? Thanx! - Kyle A. Miller San Antonio, Texas March 10, 1993 - 12:47:40 am ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 31 Wed Mar 10, 1993 K.MILLER69 [Kyle Miller] at 20:24 EST >K.MILLER69 [Kyle Miller] at 02:30 EST > >John, > >Kudos for starting this topic! Ooops... I think I should have said Steve. I hit "R" in Aladdin when John's message was right in front of me. His name was haunting my mind. :-) - Kyle A. Miller San Antonio, Texas March 10, 1993 - 7:02:34 pm ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 32 Wed Mar 10, 1993 ISD [Mario] at 21:24 EST You charge what you honestly think you are worth. a client who nickle dimes you, will also pay late. You must also be very sure of your skills, don't do work you don't qualify for ... find someone who can and stick with them. This can be especially impressive to client when they seem that you are not short changing them, also try to keep your work a mystery to the client ... once they see you working the thought of how easy it looks to do this kind of work will cause you problems, because it will occur to them that their neice or secretary can do the same work much cheaper. There lies our problem ... time and experience are great teachers practice and education are good starting points and allow you to set the foundations of your dtp business. I personally don't like the term DTP, but we are lumbered with it. sorry for the digression, Our problem is that everyone can have access to our tools and equipment, and illusion reigns supreme in this fact. "I know cars" says the weekend enthusiast who tinkers with his motor. Yet, when something goes wrong they still have a mechanic look at it (most of them do), but there will be the ones who know better. What am I saying ... I'm babbling ... no just not good at writing. The present DTP'er or computer artist/designer has to be the equivalent of the mechanic not the enthusiast. We have to know our stuff, only by knowing our "stuff" can we get what we deserve in the way of business rates. To do well you have to understand your tools and invest in the tools to do your job. The tools, are only that ... in the hands of an artist they can help create good stuff, in the hands of a monkey, well what can you expect. Mario @ DMC Publishing ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 33 Wed Mar 10, 1993 C.ALLEN17 [Cliff] at 23:54 EST Rodger, I believe Mario gave me this title, but it does contain a lot of useful info: Graphic Artists Guild Handbook Pricing & Ethical Guidlines Graphic Artist Guild This book also contains examples of contracts. Cliff (Ashevillite) ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 34 Wed Mar 10, 1993 VORTEXT at 23:55 EST I would love to "share" my layout for Vortext with my fellos and get ideas on makeovers etc. The big problem is that the last issue was almost 6 megs big. I don't think too many folks would want to spend the time dl'ing it. Plus, I don't think everyone will have the fonts I use sometimes. If there is some other way to get suggestions, I'd love it. Daniel ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 36 Thu Mar 11, 1993 S.SAMUELS [ORCA] at 02:52 EST well as long as everone is confessing, 'might as well join in.... I was a drug user before I started using Calamus. It wasn't too hard really, just swapped one addiction for another and was even to transfer and reuse much of the denial patterning that I'd worked so diligently to acquire! But to you 'clean' folks out there, ....I would not recommend trying Calamus,...sure the first one's "free", I mean, ..like its a demo, man... but watch out! Try the demo, and pretty soon you'll just -have- to get the real thing... ok, ok.... do what you want, but...you've been warned! Mario,.... uh, ...monkey business? Is that it? Is that the answer? ....seriouly though, it is bizarre these days, and to continue your 'cars' drift... I had a conversation a few days ago with a mechanic near me. His shop is about a city block away and I've known him for some years.... During the chat, he mentioned that he was doing his own 'flyers' on his computer (a PC he uses for his accounting, but that came with some 'great' DTP software).. ahem... needless to say, they look like what you would expect. Same story from some other folks with a big Mac set up for their office. The sent me a flyer they had just done.... Both these people have good tools, but don't know beans about what to do with them in terms of layout AND/OR design. Typo-graphy? Yeah, well, that about says it, eh? Seeing as how I have for many years spent many thousands of hours learning and playin' with layout, design and related artistic fields (hey, they all relate!), I do try to explain to these folks, in much the same way as your example, why they should hire someone who can 'do it right'. One tack that seems to catch their attention is, ...Your printed material is your 'foot forward', ...do you want to put your 'best foot forward', or just your mud covered jogging shoe? Personally, I find two distinct types of clients. One, the worst and most boring kind, that just want to use me a tool for the great idea they already have and 'know' "just what it should look like"...even in the face of being shown otherwise. They get charged by the book and they accept all responsibility for the poor results. Two, the best kind that expresses and discussed their needs and expects me to come up with something exciting that meets those needs. Actually, I tend to be more flexible about costs with this type as the job usually includes elements of fun for myself and them. I feel that what I deliever is 'energy' on the page. Energy that reaches out and touches the viewers in some special way. Shoot, after all, the basic info of most material 'could' otherwise just be a typewritten note, eh? I have to say that in my experience, the above applies to all jobs, large and small. From the 50 buckers to the 10 granders. I wish they were all of the second kind! %^) ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 37 Thu Mar 11, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 06:53 EST Nathan: You read my mind on the Design Critique Cooperative effort. I _was_ wondering if there was any way we work with an "invitation only" type thing. Not to be "snooty" but rather constructive. It would be kinda neat if we could evolve things to point that we had U2U Tutorials (or Critiques) of DTP design & layout. As I've stated in the past, I get the feeling that many DTPers these days, and the customers we serve appproach DTP as a technician rather than a creative endeavor. This certainly has been clearly evident in my business - the customer thinks of you as a technician, but clearly they devoid of any creative genus themselves. Layout and design skills must be cultivated SIMULTANEOUSLY with the technical skills necessary to achieve the realization of what the designer sees in their Minds Eye. Ever see the video? Minds Eye II is out now... That's what I be talkin' 'bout.... Mr. Ink @ Binary ==================== Doug: Thanks for uploading your "Confirmation of Assignment" CDK. I looked it over as I was in the mist of "Client Problems". Curious thing was that I didn't see how your contract addressed this and I'd like to open the topic up to further discussion. This client wanted a straightforward "services available" flyer. I was given the info, priced it, got the okay and prepared the draft which was "Great" (<-- that's a quote there). Then there were additions and more additions - loss of any white space - and finally a "I hate it - it looks awful!" and they were RIGHT. The Question: How do the rest of y'all handle this? Obviously there's a problem with the client here. Multiple revisions (additions) of any document can blow the layout. The customer seems to think there can be an UNLIMITED number of additions or revisons and then they c'aint seem to understand why they get something that looks like... well you get the picture. Obviously, there's some simple answers here. Quote for supplied materials only. Quote for a set amount of revision time-anything more and your on an hourly schedule. Etc., etc.... The problem is that once you get so far into a project there is no turning back and the customer frequently thinks the designer should eat any revision big or small no matter how many. Okay, how do you guys handle it? ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 39 Thu Mar 11, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 22:54 EST Cliff, Yes, I have the Pricing & Ethical book as well. I recommend that and Law & Visual Artist to all artists (including DTP artists). -- Lou -- ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 40 Thu Mar 11, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 23:58 EST Binary, It _clearly_ states in the "contract" that Revisions are additional. Paragraph 8: "If the revisions are not due to any fault of [designer], then an additional fee shall be charged at the agreed upon rate." That definately does not help the artistic problems though. I am just finishing up the artwork for some Yellow Pages ads. One illustration was hand inked to the client's spec. The design and pen size were chosen with a 14x24 pica finished size in mind. Yesterday, he ordered the full illustration reduced to 4x12 picas and NOW he is "disappointed" with the proof because that tiny little illustration is so busy and lacks "impact". Arggg. Did you know that Koh-i-noor pens will stick to a plaster wall if you throw them hard enough? ;-) One of the other ads has a client-taken 35mm photo of a house that features one of his products. (siding - and no, it's not Danny Devito). The same photo was used before in an ad done by a commercial firm in San Diego that charged him BIG $ to make it presentable. He dropped them (too expensive) and now I gotta reinvent the wheel. (Want a headache? I HAVE to use that same photo). No wonder they charged him so much. Maybe I can upload this when it's done. Might be good for a chuckle from those of you who _have_ the talent :-). BTW, San Diego is a looong way from Minneapolis. Yet this firm had a rep up here soliciting work. Image One - anyone heard of them? Stephan, you recluse. Were you been? I think you hit the two types right on the money :-) The energy thing is a real issue to me. Some clients draw it out - maybe even look for it - and others just don't care. Yah, I like the "tool" analogy. How about a third type: the "So cheap that they usually do it themselves" types. You see their work all over the grocery store bulletin boards and "shopper" papers. Used to be that you could easily spot their PrintShop 9 pin output. Gotta admit though, since the masses graduated to Microsoft Publisher, their output is getting harder to spot ;-) Doug7 ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 41 Fri Mar 12, 1993 S.SAMUELS [ORCA] at 02:22 EST Hi ya Doug! Still here, just busy with 'other' things, ya know? Yes, there's that 'third' type, but I just have to consider them as not interested in anything that I do.... and often visa versa! On the question raised about revisions: Again, there are several kinds of revisions that you should be very clear in defining with your clients. There are additions or subtractions that only require minor changes and then there are the ones that require very major changes. Even many sophisticated advertising people are still living with the delusion that since the work is being done on a computer, it only takes pushing the magic button to make all those changes! Right, just keep laughing! I like to have two deadlines, a prelim. and a final "drop dead". The time between these depends upon the clients time pressure for finishing the work. After the drop dead line, which was figured as part of an original bid, any additional changes cost by the hour...er rather by the minute! I've told several folks that I will be happy to keep changing whatever they want for the rest of my life as long as they keep paying for it! Geez, one good client like that is all you need! %^) Last year we did some work that was a rather large job, and the client was a committee. Wanna talk about not meeting deadlines, and making changes, and more changes, m o r e changes??? Hah! These folks were still trying to make friggin text changes while the plates were being burned at the printer's!!! I didn't mind. I made a grand one day making changes that were so far beyond deadlines as to be rediculous. I made the grand, and it cost them close to 5 G's in redone linos, separations and plates! Betcha they won't do that again, eh? Think ahead with Murphy's Law in mind. Be clear about it in your contracts and bids and schedules for deadlines. Keep paper trails of your discussions about deadline changes. It is amazing what someone 'thought' they heard ....a month later! At Omnicomp, there is a nice poster on the wall. It shows Clint Eastwood in one his western roles, with that very big, long barrel six-gun...the psudeo quote say, "go ahead, Make one more change!" %^)))))))) ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 42 Fri Mar 12, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 10:24 EST Deadlines? I think some of the customers for whom we do hi-res output, consider this an abstract expression. :-) We had a job recently where we received PART of the documents on the Thursday with the info that the negatives had to be at the printer on the Monday. We received a few more of the documents on the Friday and hung around Saturday and Sunday waiting for the balance, which finally showed up Tuesday and Wednesday for the Monday deadline. And, to put it mildly, it was not ready for output at any res. We finally got it done properly and to the printer a week late and then listened with little patience when the customer actually complained on the exhorbitant costs that the printer charged for tying up his press with air. Never mind. We learned a few things also. Nathan@DMC ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 43 Fri Mar 12, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger] at 19:02 EST For revisions and AAs--be sure to be clear with the customer at the outset. It ususally works better to say you'll charge for all changes and AAs, and then throw in "minor" changes for free. --Roger ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 44 Fri Mar 12, 1993 VORTEXT at 23:08 EST Lou, True it is that ya'll could go out and pick up a copy of VORTEXT. It wouldn't hurt sales, that's for sure. But if the file were up, then people could play with it much easier than having to start from gound zero. But then, isn't that what a makeover is anyway? Ah well... Daniel ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 45 Fri Mar 12, 1993 K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH] at 23:58 EST Doug, On the lighter side, you now know that throwing all those pencils at the ceiling during high school study hall developed certain skills! Ken S. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 46 Sat Mar 13, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 01:08 EST Ken, ROTFL :-) :-) :-) Roger and Stephan, I agree with the up front part. But beware of throwing in "things" for free, no matter how small. I know it sounds kinda harsh, but business is tough. I do small adjustments here and there for my better customers, but _only_ when the account is established and I have enough margin built in. You have to remember that working smarter includes not giving your services away. The trouble with "freebies" is that the customer may come to expect them. And it becomes difficult to say "no" to the client that _expects_ certain extra services to be included, regardless of the original terms. That's why I spell it out up-front with the contract, and _then_, once a professional relationship is established, I loosen up as needed to keep the account happy. I call it "client perks". When starting out, it's all to easy to spend too much time trying to please the client. Going over the work again and again in search of perfection. Taking all the time you need, etc. It's tougher to look at time as money, and the computer as just another tool to get a JOB done. And as much fun as it seems - it's still a JOB, demanding all the logic and planning that any business takes. Did I just say that? Nah... Doug7 ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 47 Sat Mar 13, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 01:28 EST Daniel, > True it is that ya'll could go out and pick up a copy of VORTEXT. It >wouldn't hurt sales, that's for sure. Hmmm... I lost track on what we were talking about. Fill me in on the copy of VORTEXT that you mentioned. -- Lou -- ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 48 Sat Mar 13, 1993 S.SAMUELS [ORCA] at 01:45 EST Daniel, ...you could just upload single pages, no? ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 49 Sat Mar 13, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 11:43 EST I am very glad that this topic is now included within this Category. I wanted to have this a few months ago remember?! But I was recommended the DTP Roundtable. So, now that it is here I'm very please. ---------- Photo-retouching software is very limited in the ATARI area for the moment. We haven't seen a product that is fully supported with upgrades etc. and don't think spending $1,000.00 on a retouching program that developers no longer support is a very good idea. But it looks like things may change with the upcoming Falcon systems. The latest Outline Art 3.0 is excellent. Plus the price is just great. This will make our work better and easier to create so more of a profite from your work. Ringo ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 51 Sat Mar 13, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 15:26 EST I have just released some business-related forms and documents created by Steve Blackburn. These files are available in the DMC Support library #30. No. File Name Type Address YYMMDD Bytes Access Lib ----- ------------------------ - ------------ ------ ------- ------ --- 28041 BUS_01.LZH X S.BLACKBURN 930312 104704 1 30 Desc: Brochure I use to market DTP 28040 BUS_02.LZH X S.BLACKBURN 930312 74240 1 30 Desc: Samples of DTP Marketing Materials 28039 BUS_03.LZH X S.BLACKBURN 930312 19968 1 30 Desc: User Help Files for Marketing DTP These files have been evaluated for their usefulness to other users and, subsequently, User to User points have been awarded to Steve. If other users have similar files, please upload them to Library 30 with a request for User to User consideration. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 52 Sat Mar 13, 1993 K.MILLER69 [Kyle Miller] at 16:12 EST Mario, Thanx for the words. I will remember them as I build a foundation for a business. Very good points... - Kyle A. Miller San Antonio, Texas March 12, 1993 - 12:47:36 pm ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 53 Sat Mar 13, 1993 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 17:57 EST >> Photo-retouching software is very limited in the ATARI area for the moment. We haven't seen a product that is fully supported with upgrades etc. and don't think spending $1,000.00 on a retouching Ringo, you're right, and with Aldus blowing out PhotoStyler for $99 (yep you read that right) in anticipation of PhotoShop 2.5 for Windows, I'd say they better get something going FAST on the Falcon. === Another poster good for anyone in the creative business: ---------------------- | | | 1. Speed | | | | 2. Price | | | | 3. Quality | | | | Choose any TWO | | | ------------------------ mike.k ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 54 Sat Mar 13, 1993 J.WILSON103 [John] at 22:08 EST > >I have just released some business-related forms and documents created by >Steve Blackburn. These files are available in the DMC Support library #30. > Lou, What am I missing here...If I have all the library's set to on, will I be getting the DMC Support Library? I do not remember anything from that area when I update my files list. Thanks. John ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 55 Sat Mar 13, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 22:30 EST Kyle, Don't worry, it happens all the time, John and I look a lot alike....Steve VORTEX You wouldn't necesarily have to upload the whole 6 megs. Putting up pages might be interesting. What kind of beast is it w/6megs anyhow? I would like to see us create a library with different form parts that we could pick and choose from to build other documents, say a return coupon part here, a portion of a form from there etc. Binary Ink I think one good way to get people to participate is to make them contribute something before they have access to what others have contributed. It could be as little as posting here with their ideas. If what Nathan says is true (1500 lurkers out there) then the big hurdle for them must be making that first post. after that it might be easier for them to communicate with the others on the board here. I spent a great deal of time being a lurker before I started posting any where here... ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 56 Sat Mar 13, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 22:54 EST John, you might have missed them because they were released out of order. The files are numbers 28039, 28040, 28041. If you do not have them in your Aladdin.DAT file, it is because these files were not released at the time you listed the files after them. In any case, you can get them easily in terminal mode. >Category 1 Welcome to the Atari ST Roundtable > >1 ?m475;3 > >ST Library?6 > >Enter download request or elp?28039,28040,28041 > >BUS_03.LZH >BUS_02.LZH >BUS_01.LZH > >Download these files? (modem/modem/o)?Z Make sure you have enough space on the drive where you have your ALAD.PRG files. You'll need about 200 Kb. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 57 Sat Mar 13, 1993 VORTEXT at 23:58 EST Lou T. - VORTEXT is a quarterly magazine for roleplaying games such as D&D that we put out using SL and my TT. We try to support a lot of the smaller game companies and supply adventure material, rules supplements etc. You should be able to find a copy in your local gaming store and give us a quick look. Stephen - Oh suuure. Be smart! Steve - The magazine is 44 pages. Some of the img files alone are rather large, up to 300-400k. Ringo - Are you referring to Retouche? I saw it in Sacramento at the San Jose Computer booth and it looked nice. I was told it was $2000. As the only choice right now, I actually thought about it. Daniel ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 58 Sun Mar 14, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 01:48 EST Daniel & Ringo, RE: Photo manipulation You might be interested in reading David Barkin's article in the March "Current Notes". Doug7 ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 59 Sun Mar 14, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 09:24 EST Daniel ... If you want a few people to critique it, perhaps you can break it up into sections, the front and back cover is one section, maybe the first 6 pages as a second etc.. Lou, I have the magazines in the office. ;-) Thanks re: Outline Art 3.0 Ringo. I look forward to receiving your order. ;-) I agree completely re: the lack of photo retouching software. I have already spent a great deal of money translating TMS Cranach Studio. It is an excellent Photo Retouching program but not at all intuitive. (Where have we heard this before) ;-) The manual was, politely, a nightmare. Nonetheless, it has now been translated BUT I flinched at spending any more money on it at this time when I can probably expect to sell a few dozen copies, period. The price has to be somewhere around US $750.00. I am NOT the publisher, simply the distributor for this product so I cannot be my usual obnoxious self and ignore the German price point. ;-) The translated manual is now in the hands of TMS Benelux division who also wanted it in English. Once they finish it, I will have it for sale. The software is SOLID and long-since completely in English. As soon as I have anything new to report I will do so immediately. Mike ... Good poster, thanks. ;-) By the way, how much is Photoshop 2.5? Have you heard? John ... Please insure that you have not IGNORED our own library 30. That was the first thing that occured to me when you said you didn't see those files. Lou's suggestion is my second guess. ;-) Steve ... Sysops such as myself have an option not available to regular members in that we can get a complete list of every single member that has attended any specific category in the past 30 days. Some categories are virtually ignored by everyone, which was the case with STReport, some, such as the Codeheads topic, is attended by virtually everyone. ;-) Mine is generally attended by people that own and use Calamus related products OR the other DTP software programs and are curious about what's new with Calamus etc.. This figure has remained around the 1500 mark for a year already. I am sure this figure will increase dramatically when Atari sales of new hardware increase dramatically. ;-) In the meantime, I think it is amazing that so many of us hang out here. By the way, what you don't see is the email I get. ;-) While I refuse to answer technical support questions in mail or any questions that might be of interest to other registered users you'd be amazed how much that still leaves open. ;-) Daniel ... I do NOT recommend that you spend $2,000 on any Photo Retouching package at this time, especially not one that is not supported in North America at this time. Nathan@DMC ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 60 Sun Mar 14, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 09:38 EST Daniel Yes, Retouche is the one. Doug. Thanks I'll checkout the "Current Notes". Ringo ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 61 Sun Mar 14, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 12:57 EST Daniel, perhaps you could do IMG files of specific pages and then compress them using LZH. The typical page might compress to around 100 Kb but the file would be readable on both 1.09N and SL. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 62 Sun Mar 14, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 13:25 EST On Cranach... ouch! Seems like you could sell a lot more for around $200- $300 or don't the Germans think that way? I thought Cranach had a good interface. Needed a couple fixes here and there but overall it made sense to me. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 63 Sun Mar 14, 1993 R.VOORNEVELD [BOB] at 14:30 EST Lou is right about the files being released out of order, Aladdin miss them for me also, but I did download them using a script. Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 64 Sun Mar 14, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 21:42 EST Vortext, Thanks for the info on the VORTEXT magazines.. -- Lou T. -- ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 65 Mon Mar 15, 1993 VORTEXT at 01:16 EST Doug - Thanks. I havn't looked at a Current Notes for some time now. The local Atari stor I shop at doesn't carry it. Maybe I can find one floating around. Nathan - Maybe I'll try breaking it up, if people are interested. Any comments are welcome. I do not profess to be an expert and could use all the constructive critisism I can get. There's a demo of Cranach in the library, yes? How does it compare to what may be eventually released? I'm lousy at figuring out programs without docs and that's why I havn't downloaded it. Lou - I don't think IMG files is the way to go. Yes, you can see the page, but I would like people to be able to play around with it. Reflow text, move pictures etc without having to redo any of the work. If they have the file, they can try different layout ideas or whatever with the same material we used. BTW Nathan - what do you folks think of the way the magazine is coming along. As you say, you have copies. Any comments? Thanks everyone for everything. I get more from this RT than any book I've read and it's far more applicable too. Daniel ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 66 Mon Mar 15, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 02:41 EST Daniel, if you'd like to buy a back-issue of CN or subscribe, see JOE.WATERS in GEMail. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 67 Mon Mar 15, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 06:53 EST Steve: Thanks for your efforts in uploading you business documents to the library. I was just about to create a style/file/pricing tracking tool similar to yours. Thanks for providing several ideas that I can tap into. I will upload the direct mailer that I use to target people-service oriented businesses for newsletters. I would appreciate any feedback folks might provide on both the layout and copy. I would like to further refine what's there.... -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 68 Mon Mar 15, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 09:11 EST Daniel, I misunderstood. I thought you just wanted to show off some of your work :-) If you actually want people to take it apart, then you can upload the CDK or simply save individual pages and upload. Dave, I'm looking forward to your sample file. Everyone, if you are going to upload samples, please delete all unused fonts and list the fonts used in the File Description. This will help others to decide if they want to download. If too many font substitutions are needed, it can destroy the 'look' of the sample. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 69 Mon Mar 15, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 18:04 EST The DEMO of TMS Cranach Studio is fairly true to the release version that has never been released. Not me, I have no comment to make. ;-) I pay Mario to be MY graphic artist although I usually do some layout work. That would be great Dave, thanks for sharing. Nathan@DMC ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 70 Mon Mar 15, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 22:34 EST Daniel, David Barkin has been running a series of articles on photo manipulation. Although he is using a "junior" version of Retouche, many of the examples and illustrations apply universally. Unfortunately CN isn't printed at a high enough resolution to do the illustrations justice. In his latest article, he opinions on the current state of the art with Atari, and recommends waiting for TMS Cranache or something other than what is currently around. I'll save the rest for you to read :-) No flames intended, Doug7 ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 71 Wed Mar 17, 1993 VORTEXT at 00:55 EST thanks Dorothy. I'll drop him a note. Lou - No problem. I thought that's what you might have thought. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 72 Wed Mar 17, 1993 VORTEXT at 01:15 EST Thanks Doug. I'd also rather wait for something coming from the folks who I know will give it good support. We'll just have to wait and see. Daniel ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 73 Wed Mar 17, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 22:41 EST Dave, There is something that I'm working on now that might be of interest, if I can figure out exactly how I want it. It's a questionair that people fill out, or you help them fill it out that tries to refine what they like and want in their printed materials. Something to get an idea as to what they are looking for. To go with that is an estimate form that follows similar threads to help me estimate what I want to charge them. If they sign both of the pieces then your probably ready to go and the ground rules are laid out. Then maybe some kind of LDW file that would let me printout an invoice and workorder. I really want to see if AtariWorks might give me the capability to integrate everything I need. It would be nice to have a package that can do it all and talk with other applications. At least that is what I'd like to do with AW if/when it shows... Lou, Your right about it destroying the sample (changing fonts). I took out a lot of fonts on the files I uploaded to avoid just that problem, and the files do look different. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 74 Wed Mar 17, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 23:30 EST Steve, the other way around the problem is to create a CVG of your work sample so that no fonts are needed. However, this tends to make the file size very large. You could also use Dataformer to make an IMG file of your page. The files are large but compress by 50% and more. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 75 Thu Mar 18, 1993 W.DAVIS20 [Bill] at 21:19 EST Nathan, Thanks for the reply. I'll definately be lurking around this topic to see what I can pick up. Joe, I'll definately take a look at Calamus. Thanks for the input. Lou, You made some good suggestions there. I'll check out that file #24155. Thanks! Bill D. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 76 Fri Mar 19, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:08 EST Steve: I _like_ the questionaire idea! I find I spend a great deal to time trying to get to know my clients likes and dislikes so that the product can be "on target". In thinking about it, I would provide some form of sample copy rather than a written question. For example, in gauging clip art preferences I would problably provide samples of whimsicle (sp?)), formal, etc. and ask them to rank order them based on their preferences. Samples of type, typography and layout style could also be provided. The point is, it would be VERY beneficial to take a _visual_ approach here. It allows the client to put things into context. I had one client tell me "I know what I like when I see it!" -- Great, but that doesn't help me get us there... Anyway, great idea, I'd be interested in seeing how things progress and giving an assist if necessary. -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 77 Mon Mar 22, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 10:25 EST >[Binary Ink] >Thanks for your efforts in uploading you business documents to the library. I >was just about to create a style/file/pricing tracking tool similar to yours. >Thanks for providing several ideas that I can tap into. I'm glad you can get some use out of it. If you make any changes to it put it back up here so that we can talk about it. >I will upload the direct mailer that I use to target people-service oriented >businesses for newsletters. I got your brochure, I like the ideas inside. I think it could use some graphics perhaps, and the pitch could be a little stronger and direct. But then again I always seem to go overboard. I thought more people would upload their work. It's been a couple of weeks and people seem to be shying away from putting their work in the library. What can we do about that? >ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 23:30 EST > >Steve, the other way around the problem is to create a CVG of your work sample >so that no fonts are needed. However, this tends to make the file size very >large. You could also use Dataformer to make an IMG file of your page. The >files are large but compress by 50% and more. > A CVG or IMG file would definately be better for viewing files, everyone would be able to see the file exactly how the creator meant it to be. One problem with that would be that people would not be able to use the parts of the file (I.E. clipping grouped frames or parts of a form) for their own pieces. I still would like to see people upload their work, at least pieces of their work that would be usefull in other files. >---------- >D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:08 EST > I would provide some form of sample copy >rather than a written question. For example, in gauging clip art preferences >I would problably provide samples of whimsicle (sp?)), formal, etc. and ask >them to rank order them based on their preferences. Samples of type, >typography and layout style could also be provided. > I had one client tell me "I know what I like when I see >it!" -- Great, but that doesn't help me get us there... Your sample book can give them an idea of what you can do. And if they could supply you with a sample of what they are looking for you could use that as a start to your piece. >Anyway, great idea, I'd be interested in seeing how things progress and giving >an assist if necessary. When I get to a point when I think I've got something to show, I'll put it up or Fmail it to you so that you could make some comments and changes. Maybe we could get Mario to throw in his two-cents. The guy knows what he's doing... To All: Does anyone have any comments as to what fonts (for body copy) look the best and are easist to read in a newsletter type piece? It has to be fine enough to not loose the WHITE you need in the overall piece Nathan, Is there any clue as to when Dr. Bob might have a .CVG module for IMG-CAT? That is something that is despartely needed. It would let you print out all of the variations that you go through (especially with OL) so that you can automaticly print out everything you have for reference. That would be verry helpfull when showing clients some of the things you're working on for them from OL3 ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 78 Mon Mar 22, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 11:43 EST No idea. I'll talk to Dr. Bob and see what's up. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 79 Mon Mar 22, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 18:47 EST Join the RTC tonight and ask Dr. Bob about the CVG CAT for cataloging graphics. I ask him every time I see him :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 80 Tue Mar 23, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 20:33 EST Well I am a little frighten now... I just upgraded from my 1040 STE (4megs) to a TT030. I already have PageStream, and I just ordered Calamus (1.09N) with the TT. So after spending a huge investment in the Atari platform, I want to see a return. I want to start doing business doing DTP work. All my friends in the same field went with Macs. I have seen some of their work and I must admit that it is impressive. The price I paid for my TT set up is more more than a good Mac set up now (Mac prices have really come down). I wanted to know if there are any people here that are making a living with the help of their Atari computers. I hope that I did not make a wrong business decision. This is a great Topic here, because I really need to know how to market myself as a non-mac user. Thanks!... --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 81 Tue Mar 23, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 22:52 EST Lou, welcome to the Calamus Category. I am sure you will find this to be a most informative place and your arrival is quite timely as we have just rekindled the discussion which you have joined. I hope you have the chance to profit from the experience of the users around this area and I, for one, commend you for your confidence in this platform and in particular, this software line. Don't forget to check library 30 which contains 18 pages of file listings. BTW, since I am also 'Lou', how shall we keep our messages distinct? I know you run a BBS, but, unfortunately, I am a sysop too :-) You use Calamus... so do I. You are Italian and I am close... Portuguese. Do you think we should just join forces ? ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 82 Wed Mar 24, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 00:33 EST Lou T. Howdy and welcome to the Zoo. Yes, you _can_ make a living with the help of your new TT. I, and a number of others lurking around this "board", do just that. I don't think you are alone with the Did-I-do-the-right-thing? jitters. You just made a relatively large investment in your future. Pretty normal to wish for a crystal ball, I suspect. I get jittery about my investment every time Apple releases newer and better Macs (once a week or so :-) But, I just do a reality check (open my general ledger), and then get back to work. I will sweat it when I run into something that I ABSOLUTELY HAVE to do on my TT to stay in business, but can't. PageStream? No comment except that my copy rarely gets used now. Pick a niche for your business, develop the needed skills with your new "tools", and go for it. :-) Doug7 ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 83 Wed Mar 24, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 06:46 EST > >Does anyone have any comments as to what fonts (for body copy) look the best >and are easist to read in a newsletter type piece? It has to be fine enough to >not loose the WHITE you need in the overall piece Steve: The Newsletter Clearinghouse (44 West Market St, P.O. Box 311, Rhinebeck, NY 12572 (914) 876-2081 FAX: (914) 876-2561) puts out a publication entitled Newsletter Design that might be of interest to you. It's an 8-page newsletter of sorts that critiques newsletters in addition to listing paper stock, inks used, and type styles. In looking at the issue I have, the fonts used are rather diverse and their effect on the newsletters is an education in itself. Subscriptions aren't inexpensive at $95/yr. ($75 if you subscribe to The Newsletter on Newsletters) but worth it if you're doing newsletters. Each newsletter is accompanied by a critique from a well known graphic artist such as Roger C. Parker and others. The critques offer substantive ways to improve any newsletter. There also is an occaisional "make-over". You might want to check it out. They will send you a sample along with a variety of other information on newsletters on request. -- Dave @ Binary Ink Nathan: Please post Dr. Bob's response to your inquiry regarding "CVG Cat". Several of us are interested in a CVG cataloging program. I, for one, have found IMG Cat to have saved me significant amounts of time locating the file I need when pushing a deadline. I'd recommend it to anyone. Thanks. -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 84 Wed Mar 24, 1993 K.CAVAGHAN2 [OakSprings] at 07:34 EST Lou, I know of 1 printer here in B.C. who uses his TT and 1040 to do all of (or almost all of ) his work. Good work too. I don't think (note: personal opinion from a non expert > that the majority of customers care about what you work with as long as you get the work done and done well. It's the learning to get the most out of your system that's the challenge. Kent ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 85 Wed Mar 24, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 08:11 EST Lou T. ... My experience has been the same as Ken mentioned. The customer wants to see the end result. Generally speaking, they couldn't care less if you were using an Atari 2600 as long as you delivered their order. ;-) Selling Atari desktop publishing platforms is a bit more challenging. ;-) In the meantime, hundreds of people in this category use Calamus to eat! You have just joined the crowd and are most welcome here. Sincerely Nathan@DMC ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 86 Wed Mar 24, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 08:34 EST Dave, thanks for the tip on the NEWSLETTER publication. While it sounds pricey, I think it might be a good value in the long run. As for CVG CAT, it was Chet Walters who was working on it. Dr. Bob was just the person I liked to bug about it. As you may know, Chet had a major burn when a power surge took out all three of his computers. From what Dr. Bob says, Chet has just managed to get up and running. I certainly hope CVG CAT is on page one of his list :-) When I do projects, I usually put all the graphics and screenshots in one folder and then use IMG CAT to provide a handy list. It is an invaluable tool for what I do and I would upgrade any time Wiz Works has something new to offer. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 87 Wed Mar 24, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 21:40 EST Lou, hehehe... Yes, your right! Once I started using Aladdin (which was recently, but I have been using GEnie for a long time) I realized that there might be a problem confusing the two of us, since we both have the same first name and such... It was then that I started signing all my messages "Lou T." to avoid confusion. Maybe I will just use "Lou @ The Machine", but I don't what GEnie to think that I am always plugging my BBS. It is very rare that I even need to worry about this, since I am usually the only "Lou" since it is not that common. Every job I worked, I was the only Lou there and so on. But I think the ST Roundtable is big enough for to Lous. Well as a SysOp myself (though not a GEnie sysop), I feel I should steer this conversation back the topic... Yes, all my friends in the same field have gone to the Mac platform. I must say that there systems are quite impressive (they all went with higher end machines). With the money I just spent on the TT030 system, I could have bought the same Mac systems they have. But I would have to start from the beginning with software (because I _buy_ my software). Though I love the Atari platform and would rather stick with Atari than moving to another platform. I just hope I made the correct business decission. That is I hope that I can generate an income with DTP work on the Atari platform in a "Mac world." I am hoping that I will find some users here that can tell me. From one Lou to another, Thanks! --Lou T.-- or Lou @ The Machine Doug Walter, Thanks for the encouraging words! I guess I really needed to hear some reassurance now. You are right about those jitters. I am looking forward to learning and exploring Calamus as well. I would rather have gotten the SL version, but with cost of the TT system, I just could not swing for the cost of it. I got Calamus 1.09N, the Font Editor, and the book "Guide to DTP..." Maybe I can upgrade to the SL version as soon as I see some return on all this money :) Kent (OakSprings), Thanks for helping to restore my hope. You are 100% correct when you state that the trick is learning to get the most out of your system. You can have the best system in the world and it wont mean "didiley" if the user does not know how to get the most out of it. Nathan, Thanks for the warm welcome! I have been saying the same thing all the time since I first got my STE. It is the end results that count. It does not matter how you add A+B=C, it is C, the final product that matters. In fact I this is what I have told many people myself concerning my artwork (I am "Fine Artist/Illustrator" as well). I am looking forward to learning Calamus now. Though I like my current DTP (I guess I shouldn't mention the name ), but I have found it limiting in respect to doing true grey scales, importing some vector graphics, and WYSIWYG. Next on my list to get is Outline Art (I have been really impressed with some of the stuff I saw that came from this package). Nathan, once again thanks! --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 88 Wed Mar 24, 1993 ISD [Mario] at 23:14 EST Welcome Lou T. and good luck with your DTP endeavors ... Keep working at it and you'll be proficient and profitable in no time. Mario @ DMC Publishing ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 89 Thu Mar 25, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:24 EST Lou T: It doesn't matter if you use a Stanley or a Black & Decker circular saw to cut the board, the results are the same! But put one in the hands of a craftsman and watch the results. (Up on Soap Box now) I think the "secret" here is that for the most part, clients could care less about what hardware and software you use. They care about results. Look at the computer as a tool. Hone your typography and design skills to a keen edge, and never, Never, NEVER be intimidated by the DOS Box or Mac lemmings. I would recommend you do two things; First, identify the DTP niche you aim to fill. The area is so broad that you can become a run-of-the-mill generalist or "THE" person to see for newsletters, logos, bouchures with impact, whatever. . .. Secondly, decide how you're going to MARKET those services. Marketing will make or break your operation. Item #1 and Item #2 are linked. Some types of work generate recurrent business while others (like logos) generally are a one-shot deal. Price accordingly and you can STILL come in less than the Mac Lemmings because your hardware and _software_ overhead is less than theirs. I would strongly recommend you not severely under price however. Once you get known as a whore you can never be a Virgin again <>. Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 90 Fri Mar 26, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 00:21 EST Mario, Thanks! I am looking forward to Calamus as well as my TT. I will be redesigning my business cards, letterhead, and contracts as well. Then I hope to produce some promotional items and get the ball rolling. Dave [Binary Ink], Many thanks for your reply and your tips and advice. You are a glowing example of how important a topic like this is on GEnie. Sometimes you need to hear what you already know, and you did that with me. As an artist/illustrator, I know exactly what you mean by identifing a niche to work in and not to be too general. Also to price your self competively. I remember when I first started out with illustration work, I priced some of my work too low. Since I majored in Illustration at the New York School of Visual Arts, I just need to take what I already know about the art feild and bring it to the DTP feild. Thanks again. --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 93 Sat Mar 27, 1993 VORTEXT at 17:54 EST I'm just about ready to upload some pages from our last issue. Take a look and let me know what you think. I'm not to worried about horning in on someone elses territory since what I do with my machine is such a specific marketplace anyway. I've been working on this mag for just over a year now and feel that it has come a long way since the beginning. I've read quite a lot of books on layout and such but could certainly do with some contructive commentary from the vast throngs out here. I'll let you know when the files are up. I also have a few copies of the current issue to send to people so you can see the final product as well. If interested send me e-mail with an address. Thanks. Daniel ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 94 Sat Mar 27, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 18:27 EST Can I load SL CDKs into Calamus 1.09N? Are these samples uploaded in a form I _can_ use? For example, does the SL demo allow loading these samples? ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 95 Sat Mar 27, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 18:37 EST Dot, SL files do not load into 1.09N. If you use the Calamus demo, you would probably have to change all the fonts that might be serialized to PD or unserialized ones but, yes, it should work. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 96 Sat Mar 27, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 18:48 EST I guess I'd lose a lot of the benefit of the samples with alternative fonts, anyway. After all, it's not the content so much as the effect that each sample demonstrates. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 97 Sat Mar 27, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 19:04 EST We can always convert the page to a CVG that could be read into 1.09N or an IMG. Let's see what Daniel places up and the decide if it will be too large to convert or not. Nathan@DMC ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 98 Sun Mar 28, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 15:27 EST L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] > Well I am a little frighten now... I just upgraded from my 1040 STE >(4megs) to a TT030. I already have PageStream, and I just ordered Calamus >(1.09N) with the TT. Hey, your not the only one that is scared, but its not because of the machine, it's rather a problem of marketing what you got. Most of the people I see don't need it or do it themselves. Most of the business's that I try to approach have these little signs pointing to the fact that they don't want to be botherd with salesmen. You really have to have some kind of angle or your just not going to make it. Just like any other business, Plus, how long can you afford to beat the paths for little jobs? The amount of time it takes to nurture a client sometimes is just not worth the job. Without a place of business/advertising budget or some dynamite angle, it's pretty tough lining up work. I do get some but it's tough... ************* D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 00:33 EST >Pick a niche for your business, develop the needed skills with your new >"tools", and go for it. :-) AMEN..that is probably the best way to go, find a problem and solve it with what you have to work with. **************** -- Dave @ Binary Ink >Nathan: > >Please post Dr. Bob's response to your inquiry regarding "CVG Cat". Several of >us are interested in a CVG cataloging program. I, for one, have found IMG Cat >to have saved me significant amounts of time locating the file I need when >pushing a deadline. I'd recommend it to anyone. Thanks. > > Nathan, don't ask, BEG, I'll help :-} **************** ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] > I certainly hope CVG CAT is on page one of his list :-) > >When I do projects, I usually put all the graphics and screenshots in >one folder and then use IMG CAT to provide a handy list. It is an >invaluable tool for what I do and I would upgrade any time Wiz Works >has something new to offer. ---------- > That's exactly what I do, it really organizes things when you're working on a project. Thats where CVG-Cat will make a big difference. I always seem to have 10 different versions of the stuff that I create in OLine, and having a printout would make things very productive. GOTTA HAVE THAT THING! STEVE ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 99 Sun Mar 28, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 19:05 EST I have been in contact with DR. Bob and we are discussing the possibilities. When I can say anything more concrete, I will certainly do so. Meantime your post in his topic will no doubt attract some attention. ;-) Nathan ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 100 Mon Mar 29, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 01:27 EST Steve, Thanks for the comments and advice. What you said is true. The hardest part of the whole business is probably just that. Marketing and finding ones niche. Something that I have already set out on doing... It takes time too... but you got to pay your bills in the meantime, that is why I try to have other projects and jobs as well... I have many friends that are still trying in the art field to get that ball rolling, and I have a few that already are getting somewhere. One of the great things about this TOPic is that we can exchange ideas on how to do it and so on. --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 101 Tue Mar 30, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:00 EST **** WARNING -- "VERBOSE" COMMAND IN EFFECT! *** Okay now that we're in agreement that MARKETING is the single biggest hurtle for someone going out on the DTP Limb, let's talk concrete suggestions to get around the marketing dilema: #1-GET FRIENDLY WITH A PRINTER. They may not have a person doing typesetting, but they probably do. Eventually, they'll have hardware problems, a glut of work, person quit, or just want to streamline their operation. Smaller printers are best because they are more likely NOT to have a graphics person working for them. The tactic to use in selling them is to show them the creativity in your work. The bulk of the small printers doing their own typesetting approach it from a straightforward "put the type on the paper" approach and don't get real creative. This is a selling point for you. You also can provide a much higher level of customer service than a guy juggling too many balls. I recently asked a printer in my area "Is there anything you guys DON'T do?". I got a couple leads and took it from there. The point is, I had to be friendly enough with them to be able to ask. #2-REFFERALS MEAN A SELF-SUSTAINING BUSINESS. Goal: To reduce your marketing (no profit) efforts and maximize your billable DTP time. You would like to create a refferal system that will provide a constant supply of customers. In order to do this, you've got to "prime the pump". Don't order 500 business cards. Order a couple thousand and hand one to everyone you meet-- supermarket lines, 10 cards to each friend, bulletin boards everywhere, ALWAYS carry them. Develop a clear, succinct 50-word monologue on who you are and what you do. Fine tune it, WRITE IT OUT. You'll be using these lines with almost anyone you meet -- they should cleanly communicate and have a degree of impact. #3-WATCH THE NEWSPAPER. Businesses looking for graphic artists/layout people advertise in the want ads. It doesn't take a ton of marketing savy to convince a business that it would be more profitable to contract with you than to sustain their own graphics department. The business pages of the newspaper can also you with articles on new businesses in the area. Many of these businesses will be in need of DTP services and have not established a link with anyone in particular. Here you come knocking on the door, know their needs from having read the write-up in the paper, and have a primo shot at establishing a long-term relationship. While we're talking about the business pages, you yourself should take advantage of newspaper write-ups to gain exposure. These are frequently FREE (magic word) and often will use a photo which grabs attention. The name of the game is exposure TO POTENTIAL CLIENTS. Many of them read the business section and use the newpaper as a primary tool. Enough for Chapter 1, I would recommend Sarah and Paul Edwards books "Getting Business to Come to You" and "Making It On Your Own". These folks are well known small business advisors and their books contain many useful tips to getting started. B.Daltons or Waldenbooks in the Business section - $10.95 each - money well spent. How about some Hot Tips on tactics and strategy from the rest of y'all? "Business is War" you know.... (I just HAD to throw that in).<> -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 102 Tue Mar 30, 1993 K.CAVAGHAN2 [OakSprings] at 08:59 EST Something else in regards to referrals: Join your local BBB and more importantly, the Chamber of Commerce and go to the functions. Kent ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 103 Wed Mar 31, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger] at 02:20 EST As a printer, I do give referals to people who I know are doing DTP as a business. I do also do typesetting, but I can't/won't handle everything and I do send people to others to get the work done. Also, those people who are really doing DTP as a business will get my trade price for the printing they do for themselves. It is nice if they direct people that they do work for my way sometimes (at least the specialzed customers I try to help), and if they don't try to steal my customers. --Roger ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 104 Wed Mar 31, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:24 EST Further commentary on the BBB and Chamber of Commerce: You might want to check two things before "leap". The first is the number of small to medium size businesses in the Chamber. These will form the bulk of your customers -- the bigger businesses either a.) have in-house graphics or, b.) work with the bigger full color graphics shops. The second thing to verify is the cost of joining the Chamber. My experience is that it can run from nothing to several hundred dollars. If the composition of the Chamber is right, you can generate a goodly number of refferals from the time invested in it. -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 105 Wed Mar 31, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 08:30 EST Roger .. Do you have an Imagesetter? Nathan ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 106 Wed Mar 31, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 21:14 EST Nathan, No I don't have an imagestter. For the amount of typesetting I do--and the size of my shop--I couldn't justify the cost. Most of my work comes in camera ready. I do have a typesetter. While an "antique" it still puts out real nice type. --Roger (You giving one away?) ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 107 Thu Apr 01, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 11:03 EST :-) Nah, but I do have a Lino interface for an Atari workstation that I'd love to place somewhere that none exists currently. Do you have an AGFA 8000 series with the fonts on the film strips? Regards Nathan @ DMC ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 108 Thu Apr 01, 1993 D.GORDON2 [DENNIS] at 19:55 EST The CG 8000 series (ca. 1978) is pre-Agfa, I believe, although it's so long ago that I could be hallucinating... *Speaking* of Agfa....any word on the...you know....er...um... that...uh...thingy box that hooks up to one? Or the domestic SCSI interface rumored a few months back? Just wonderin'..... ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 109 Thu Apr 01, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 23:40 EST Ooops, (blush) you are right of course, it was a Compugraphic 8000, definitely pre-AGFA. ;-) On the CG interface, they've gone and written some software that should work with the new AGFA SCSI interface they actually built for Macs. Not to worry, we don't mind if they use it too. I'm just waiting for something to arrive that I can test over at AGFA in Toronto. Nathan @ DMC ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 110 Fri Apr 02, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 18:29 EST Yes I have the film strip fonts (with screen fonts on cartridge), but the machine is a Compugraphic Editwriter 7500. Managed to collect a few fonts on sale several years back (about $250 for three I think). That was a great price but I think now you can find them used for almost (if not actually) free. My shop is just a few miles from Linotype Corp. We did some work with them and 3M when they were trying out the direct to plate Onxy plates. --Roger S. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 111 Fri Apr 02, 1993 D.GORDON2 [DENNIS] at 22:43 EST Actually, the CG 8000 series came in about 1980 and were Compugraphic's first digital (non-laser) typesetters... Speaking of the Editwriters, I had friend who bought a used 7700 and worked out of her house around 1985. She paid $9,000 for it and we thought what a great deal she'd gotten. Times really have changed. I screwed up more than one film strip by carelessly clipping it to the drum, causing a sickening wacka- wacka as it got up to speed. Time to get the opaque out. Geez - 8 fonts on line, max point size 72 pt (if you had the "high range" model, uneven baseline alignment, max film width of 45 picas, big ol' 8 inch floppies, heat generator, weighs a ton and s-l-o-w. And that was state of the art 15 years ago. Lot of shops still use 'em, which keeps the $90/hr repair guys very happy. Ah nostalgia ;-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 112 Sun Apr 04, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 03:15 EDT Dave, You said something not long ago that really made me think, and that is to specialize in a certain area. I have been thinking about it a lot, because my focus has been too broad. By focusing in on a couple of key areas a person can really put the energy needed into their efforts, concentrating on creating the samples, masterpages and marketing effort needed to reach the people you want to reach. I don't know if it was you or whoever, but someone mentioned that newsletters have a potential for generating income on a monthly or bi-monthly basis, something that is definatly needed. I have been working on a newsletter to do just that (push the idea of newsletters to potential clients), and beleive me, the creation of the words is more daunting than trying to learn SL... Which brings me to a question (or problem). Creating a newsletter (or any text intensive piece of work) requires words, who creates them? Laying out the newsletter is a major task all by itself, depending on your client to give you the words creates a whole new set of problems (just getting them to get it to you). Transmission of the words is another factor, if they give it to you on a PC compatibe disk would be great (from a Mac I wouldn't know what to do). Faxing it to you would solve some problems if Migraphs OCR program were not so dificult to use (they don't hold your hand like DMC does, we're spoiled :-) re-typing would be the last resort. Printing and distribution is another set of questions that must be answered, because the client is going to ask you about it. Should we handle the whole kit and kaboodle? And what do you charge for something like that? Maybe we should just cancell this topic and go back to bugging Nathan about when the next upgrade is going to arrive...:-) it's more fun and a lot easier....Just kidding. There is a whole lot to think about isn't there. What we have here is what is called networking, something I've never done in the past and wish I had started doing sooner... Steve ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 113 Sun Apr 04, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 11:20 EDT Steve, I receive a lot of work from PC folks on disk. It often arrives in WP 5.1 and I can convert the files to ASCII quite easily. Of course, Calamus also imports WP files and there is a product called WP Switch which changes WP files to WP 4.2 and to Calamus Text. From the MAC, I think you use something called Mac See to read Mac disks. File formats are a different matter. You can always ask for ASCII but would then lose the bold, italic, etc. that your customer has used. I guess you could ask for a formatted printout and re-tag everything. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 114 Sun Apr 04, 1993 VORTEXT at 13:32 EDT Well, I uploaded a file to the library earlier this week. Don't know what's happened with it yet. It was a long upload. Daniel ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 115 Sun Apr 04, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 15:07 EDT Daniel, I just checked and I see the file is still hidden. There are 40 some files released above it so I will check it, and reupload the file for you. I suspect the library sysops thought this was a DMC test file and did not release it. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 116 Mon Apr 05, 1993 S.LIVERSIDGE [STEVE L] at 00:13 EDT The major problem with the archaic notion that "business is war" is that it causes the business to lose its focus on the customer & instead concentrate on making the bottom line look good. Which works great, until one day you wake up and realize that the customer is no longer knocking at your door. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 117 Mon Apr 05, 1993 S.SAMUELS [ORCA] at 01:02 EDT I've done quite a bit of work using files created on Mac's. Mostly, I use the GCR and Word to convert them to ascii, then transvert them to an Atari file, then into WP and lastly to SL. Not as swift as direct import on a Mac to Quark, but it works. IBM, er...PC files are indeed easier. Usually, a 'client' can provide a hard copy and either modem the files and/or send a disk. Often, I have to instruct them about how to 'save as text' on the Mac. This can save me a step. My best bet is to have their original file to view in GCR Mac version onscreen and then make my own ascii version. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 118 Mon Apr 05, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 11:28 EDT Stephen probabably has the best method for Mac files, but there is another method that I use in lieu of having Mac access: Migraph's OCR. Except for very long documents, I scan printed output and use OCR to translate the resultant IMGs into ASCII files. Although somewhat time consuming, with clean copy, reasonably accurate text can be had that requires far less correcting than my own typing (or often the client's). I use the hand scanner with Coalesce and the Tray for short 1-30 page or complex docs, and a commercial scanning service for docs that are longer or messier. A good spell and grammer checker helps for proofing. BTW, commercial text scans cost me less than $.70 per 1k characters for raw ASCII files. For really bad copy, complex tables, or extremely long docs, I use the services of a freelance typist (my little secret - I can't type worth a da..). Even though an extra expense, in the long-run cheaper than tying up my own time. Just be sure to bid appropriately when you accept the job - don't be shy about charging for this service. Doug7 ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 119 Tue Apr 06, 1993 R.BOARDMAN [Robert Board] at 18:24 EDT I'm not doing this DTP thing for money yet, just in order to make my life as a college instructor a little easier. (Plans for a DTP business are in my head and are slowly coming together) I have an Epson 286 with WP 5.1 (DOS version) side by side with my ST & Calamus. It's a simple thing to write what I need in WordPerfect, save as ASCII and ship it over to the ST via a null modem cable. (When I get a good word processor on my ST I won't bother with this.) It seems to me getting a DOS (perhaps Windows too?) document changed to be compatible with an ST should be dead easy. If a customer can't save it (doesn't know how) in ASCII, then put it on a floppy, stick it in a machine with WordPerfect (or most other any end word processors) and save it in ASCII on a 3 1/2 floppy for use in the ST. I agree with Steve Blackburn, retyping seems like a last resort. However, paying a professional typist might be the right (i.e. least costly and quickest) alternative particularly if the typist can include the setup codes needed for DTP. That idea presupposes you, the DTP specialist, are able to do other work related things while the typist has the ST in use (or the typist has their own ST). Robert in Toronto ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 120 Tue Apr 06, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 23:27 EDT Robert, Actually, Robert, the typist gives me unformatted ASCII text on a PC disk. I don't _want_ "setup" codes and the like. That's what _I_ do :-) I just want the raw text for importing. As far as concurrent operations go - I usually have multiple jobs going at once, so waiting for text is relatively minor when planned for. In reality, most of my jobs are weighted more towards layout and design (remember, I don't type well), so I can always stay busy with the rest of a project. I spend a lot of time crafting the molds, then just pour the prepared text in. Formatting specific parts of the text body is generally the last thing I do before proofing. Doug7 ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 121 Mon Apr 12, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:02 EDT ******* VERBOSE "ON" ******* Steve: Appologies for the slow response - I've been away from the keyboard for a week. You asked several questions regarding a newsletter-oriented DTP operation. It appears to me that you're crossing some of the same bridges I encountered. Here's my commentary on some of the issues you addressed: I supply my customers with a labeled, pre-formatted 720K 3-1/2" disk upon which I ask them to dump their ASCII text file. I toyed with allowing WordPerfect Files but have found that a.) Calamus doesn't do the best of jobs importing it, and b.) the customer tends to get carried away with things like underlining and style changes that just have to be undone later after the import. I tend to stick with style as defined in "The Desktop Style Guide" by Felici and it has served me well. I have found FAX capability invaluable to my operation. It saves me an enormous amount of time and most of my customers have FAX capability. Recently, I experimented with capturing an incoming FAX (in "fine" mode) with STraight FAX and running it through Migraph's OCR. I was _very_ encouraged when the OCR software questioned 3 characters on the first page and _none_ on the following pages. The text file had _no_ errors. Unbelievable! At any rate, I'd suggest both a FAX MODEM and a stand alone FAX machine. If you operate this way. A final option is to type the text yourself. This is one way to augment your income when starting out, but bear in mind that you can not charge that same hourly rate that you charge for layout and design. I charge the same rate as the typists in my area ($5-6 per page), however, I try to avoid typing whenever possible. I approached several of the better known secretarial and typing services in my area early on and introduced myself, made them aware of my refferal plan (10% back to the source), and made them aware of the potential for referals back to them. I wiould suggest you reffer back to the biggest source of refferals to you ("scratch their back"). Typing services generally don't offer full service DTP and occaisionally get calls for it. They'll refer if they have a ready source, particularly one that will pay them a referal fee. With that said, I would point out that I've _not_ gotten the number of referals I would expect from this direction, but I would recommend you exploit this market just the same. I would think that my experience is a regional phenomena. When customers supply the copy, I try to lock them in to some form of deadlines. I make them aware that I can not compromise other scheduled jobs to accomodate failure to meet deadlines and that I charge a premium for "Rush" orders. The way I figure it, if I'm going to pull an all-nighter I should get paid for it. Problem clients get a broader spead on their deadline and press time. You can bet your last dollar that the client that's always bustin' the deadlines will also be the customer that's _totally_ inflexible on the delivery date. For these people it works well to set the printing date with a statement somehting like, "Delivery of printed materials will be 5 days following the reciept of final copy." I have an excellent relationship with my printer, however, I refuse to consistently ask them for "Rush" work as well. Quality suffers. _You_ not the customer inherit a bad reputation with the printer, and the customer comes to accept the fact you'll rush it every time. "'X' DAYS FOLLOWING THE RECIPT OF FINAL COPY" will nip these problems in the bud. I pick up and deliver the product. This allows me to perform quality control at the printer and offer a servce many printers can not provide. It's the personal, no-hassle service that makes my services appealing to many customers. It's also a leg up on the competition. As far as distribution goes, either the customer takes care of it or I work directly with a mailing service. I would suggest you talk to a mailing service up front. Their input can affect layout, folding and deadline times. Do not develop a reputation for being late to deliver to a mailing service. The ones I deal with program your work for a set time. If you fail to make delivery deadlines then they sit idle. It doesn't take long before they will not schedule processing of your mail-out until they have it "in hand". Mailing services are another interesting sideline one could develop in conjunction with a newsletter- oriented service. Unfortunately, I'm unaware of any Atari based mailing software that will meet postal service requirements for bar coding, zip+4, and other bulk mail specifics. -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 122 Thu Apr 15, 1993 T.PLOWMAN [BEER GOD] at 14:15 EDT Okay, I'll come out of lurk mode for a bit. I follow most of the Calamus topics here and I, like many others here, entertain the thought of actually making some $$$ with Calamus and my current hardware setup(Mega STE and SLM 804). However, I don't claim to have any 'natural' ability or real knowledge of layout and design. What I do have is a desire to learn more(flyers for some of my parties and my resume is the extent of my DTP experince so far). So with that in mind I was wondering if anyone could suggest any books or reference material that I could look into. Something I could pick up at the local library would be preferable as I am in a bit of a financial bind at the time(big suprise, eh?). Of course any suggestions would be appreciated. I'm also going to look into taking some classes at the Junior College level in the fall when I move to Oregon(any Atarian's up that way?). Thanks in advance, Beer God. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 123 Thu Apr 15, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 18:42 EDT Beer God, Mario uploaded a reference list that would serve your needs. I will check the library for you. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 124 Thu Apr 15, 1993 M.WEILERT2 [matt] at 22:23 EDT What's the Status of the PaperDirect Templates mentioned, oh, I guess in the last ten days or so? I'm gearing up to hold a spring promotion and would like to "graduate to SL" instead of the vendor-supplied shlock. Thanks Matt ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 125 Fri Apr 16, 1993 R.VOORNEVELD [BOB] at 00:04 EDT Matt, 4 LZH,s of PaperDirect Templates are in the library Now 28402 CERTIFS.LZH 28403 FRAMES.LZH 28404 LTRHEDS.LZH 28405 MESSAGES.LZH ...and they are really great templates. Even if you don't use any of PaperDirects paper they give you some great ideas. Jimmy Carter, You did an outstanding job on them! Thanks. BTW they import well into SL and colorizing them is easy! Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 126 Fri Apr 16, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 00:28 EDT Matt, The Paper Direct templates simulate the preprinted areas of their various designs so you can lay out a page to print _on_ their papers. They are not intended to replace their product. Ya still gotta buy 'em :-) The templates are all in the library. Doug7 ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 127 Fri Apr 16, 1993 J.P.C. at 21:08 EDT Bob: Thanx for the kind words. More templates are coming RSN (HONEST):- Jimmy ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 128 Sat Apr 17, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 08:39 EDT Beer God: You might try Roger C. Parker's "Looking Good In Print". Probably the most readily available book on the subject of layout and design. It's a great place to start. -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 129 Sat Apr 17, 1993 J.P.C. at 09:42 EDT Beer God: Dave's suggestion is a _very good_ one. Roger C. Parker also has two other well-respected books out on DTP. 'The Makeover Book' compares original layouts to those remade with a more professional appearance. 'Newsletters From The Desktop' covers _everything_ you need to know about producing newsletters. All of the above should be available at your local library, or book store. Cordially, Jimmy Carter ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 130 Sun Apr 18, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 02:28 EDT Jimmy, just a note of thanks for the Paper Direct templates. I just put one to use. Great time saver! Doug7 ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 131 Sun Apr 18, 1993 J.P.C. at 09:51 EDT Doug: Real glad to see someone is making good use of them. Thanx for the kind words! Jimmy ALL: Apparantly I've contracted a minor case of CTS, or maybe burcitis, in both arms. All this mousing-around designing these templates is taking its toll but, FEAR NOT. I'm finishing up the tri-fold brochures, 30 of them, and will be uploading them RSN (HONEST). ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 132 Sun Apr 18, 1993 T.PLOWMAN [BEER GOD] at 12:52 EDT Thanks for the suggestions on DTP books. I will look into them at the library/bookstore. I appreciate everyone's help. Beer God. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 133 Fri Apr 23, 1993 VORTEXT at 02:28 EDT The PaperDirect templates are wonderful. I took a look at them and commend you on the time and effort. To tell the truth, I had never HEARD of paperDirect before now. Maybe I should give 'em a buzz. Thanks Daniel ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 134 Fri Apr 23, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 07:20 EDT Folks, if you have not downloaded the Paper Direct files made by J.P.C., you are missing a very useful set of templates. Take a look at one or two and then consider these products for your professional DTP use. > No. File Name Type Address YYMMDD Bytes Access Lib >----- ------------------------ - ------------ ------ ------- ------ --- > >28488 BROCHURS.LZH X J.P.C. 930420 32512 14 30 > Desc: Templates for PaperDirect products. >28402 CERTIFS.LZH X J.P.C. 930412 8192 42 30 > Desc: Templates for PaperDirect products >28403 FRAMES.LZH X J.P.C. 930412 15232 43 30 > Desc: Templates for PaperDirect products >28404 LETRHEDS.LZH X J.P.C. 930412 11648 48 30 > Desc: Templates for PaperDirects products >28405 MESSAGES.LZH X J.P.C. 930412 106496 39 30 > Desc: Templates for PaperDirects products ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 135 Sun Apr 25, 1993 D.FISK2 [David] at 05:18 EDT Lou; A brief description about what Paper Direct products are would be greatly appreciated. thanks David F. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 136 Sun Apr 25, 1993 R.VOORNEVELD [BOB] at 11:53 EDT David F. This is from the Read Me File On the Templates gom Jimmy Carter >ABOUT PAPERDIRECT >PaperDirect offers (via mail-order only) a wide variety of >laserprinter/photocopier compatable products, targeted >specifically at the home-based Desktop Publishing market. Besides >the requisite white and colored papers, Avery labels, report >covers and presentation products, PaperDirect offers many products >with pre-printed, artistic designs. Included amongst those are >designs for letterheads, certificates, business cards, tri-fold >brochures, envelopes and much more. > >PaperDirect offers a PaperKit for $19.95 (refundable with your >first order) that contains a sample of almost every paper product >they offer. I have put my PaperKit samples into clear sheet >protectors, and they virtually fill a 3-inch thick, 3-ring binder! >Whether you just dabble in DTP, or do it on a professional level, >your money will be well spent. > >PaperDirect >205 Chubb Ave. >Lyndhurst, N.J. 07071 >1-800-A-PAPERS Hope this helps Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 137 Sun Apr 25, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 12:09 EDT David, you re-read the message from Jimmy Carter (J.P.C.), you will find the info you need. Use the READ 27 AUT=J.P.C. NOR command. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 139 Sat May 01, 1993 L.CROSS2 [Larry] at 10:48 EDT Just a quick question, and 1 helpful comment... Question: I use an HP Laserjet 4M. I'm looking for the following product: * 8-1/2" x 11" (full-sheet) adhesive-back labels. (In other words, each sheet is one (1) label. My difficulty has been locating a "non-permanent" adhesive. (I want to be able to reposition the label and/or peel it off after using it as a "mask" for quick sign painting. Do you know if such a product is made (for Laserjets)? Helpful hint: Hewlett-Packard recommends _NOT_ putting certain materials into vinyl or plastic envelopes/sheet-protectors. The reason, they claim, is that a reaction occurs between the two because of the petroleum-based chemical composition of the products. Damage can result to the Laserprinter as a result of "sticky surfaces" on the paper product. Larry. (L.CROSS2) ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 140 Sat May 01, 1993 R.VOORNEVELD [BOB] at 13:25 EDT Larry Paper Direct has a product called Instant Laser Mechanical 8-1/2" X 11" It's laser paper backed with repositionable adhesive. Paper Direct's Number is 800-272-7377 Thanks for the HP hint. Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 141 Sat May 01, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 15:08 EDT Vortex... I d/l your file but for some reason I get an error message that tells me that it contains non-Calamus data. Is it just a bad d/l or have other people encountered the same problem? I picked up an interesting book the other day. It's called: Guerrilla Marketing Weapons: Author: Jay Conrad Levinson Penguin Books USA INC. 375 Hudson St. NY.,NY. 10014 ISBN 0-452-26519-3 It's an interesting book that deals with different types of marketing weapons that can be used. The subhead reads " 100 affordable marketing methods for maximizing profits from your small business ". It has some interesting commentary many of the little things that business people might not take into consideration when they set out their shingle. It is meant to help people put together all of these little aspects of their business to make a better whole. Some of the chapters include: THE MORE WEAPONS YOU USE, THE MORE PROFITS YOU EARN WEAPONS FOR THE OUTSET WEAPONS NOT RECOGNIZED AS PART OF MARKETING WEAPONS THAT BEGIN WITH ATTITUDES WEAPONS OVERLOOKED BY NONGUERILLAS WEAPONS THAT ARE FREQUENTLY MISUSED A STRATEGY FOR USING THE WEAPONS The price is $9.95 and there is a newsletter available from the author for $49.00/yr (money back guarantee). The book lists a number for the newsletter (800-748-6444 or 415-381-8361 for Calif) You can also write the author at Guerrilla Marketing International 260 Cascade Drive, P.O. Box 1336, Mill Valley, Ca. 94942 Check it out if you're interested ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 142 Sat May 01, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 17:03 EDT Steve, that error messages indicates a corrupted file. Try uncompressing it again. I had no trouble loading and printing Daniel's file so you might have a bad download or might have uncompressed badly. Thanks for the tip of the book. Sounds interesting. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 143 Sat May 01, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 22:17 EDT Larry, You can go to any good art store and pick up some LETRASET self adhesive film in 8.5 x 11. I believe it is called Letracopy HF (I'm not sure about the HF part) I do know that the Letracopy PF is clear not white, the HF is white. --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 144 Sun May 02, 1993 VORTEXT at 00:53 EDT Steve, Couldn't say about the error message. Yours is the fisrt response I've had. (Hint hint) Daniel ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 145 Sun May 02, 1993 L.CROSS2 [Larry] at 21:57 EDT Lou-- Thanks for the reply, (ref: 8-1/2" x 11" label material). About the Letraset; you didn't mention if it's "Laserjet compatible"? Larry. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 146 Mon May 03, 1993 ISD [Mario] at 23:26 EDT Larry... Any of the Laser ready Letraset products are Laserjet compatible. Mario @ DMC Publishing ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 147 Tue May 04, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 00:43 EDT Larry, I will look into the laserjet compatibility factor in the next few days and get back to you on it. --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 148 Wed May 05, 1993 M.WEILERT2 [matt] at 10:35 EDT Larry, RE: msg 139 Get ahold of your local "commercial" 3M representative (by commercial, I mean someone who sells Scotch tape in a greeting card store isn't them...grin) Should be able to look in the yellow pages under "3M" or "Minnesota Mining and Mfg". Simply ask for a data sheet on their "repositionable adhesives", they've got a hold range of them. Hope this helps. Regards, Matt ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 149 Mon May 17, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 00:44 EDT I picked up another book recently. It's a good one.... SWIM WITH THE SHARKS (without getting eaten) I don't know if it is in the list that Mario sent up (probably is) but it's a very, very interesting book, something anyone who is out there in the business world should read. I'll bet Nathan has read it :-) I've been pricing some printers to see what it would cost me to put out a newsletter, so far the lowest price has been $51 for 500 copies of 11x17 printed both sides. Different places quote different prices all the way up to $110 for the same quantity. This is on 20lb stock. I'm curious to see what they want to charge me for just the printing process ( I haven't asked yet ) because I would like to pick out my own paper from Kelly paper. That's a big part of the production, the texture of the piece. I was going to upload the newsletter I put together to promote my business but I keep on changing the text and the concept of the piece. Irregardless of how much you spend, you want it to make its point and I still have to define what I really want to sell. Reading the book I mentioned above has changed some of my thinking and my focus. I have spent a lot more time and effort writing the text then laying out the piece, it's really difficult. There has to be a focus and a reason before you spend the time, money and effort to put something out like this that is going to represent you to the people that read it (if they read it :-). Photographs: I want to add pictures to the thing. Half-tone stats go for about $13 for an 8x10 page and you can put as many as you can fit on to it. Later they can be trimmed and pasted up for printing. I've been told I should have the prints half-toned to the size you are going to print them, otherwise you end up paying reduction charges, which eats up even more money, and even with a tiny run that I plan to do it's going to cost a few bucks. This is for what I would consider a minimal amount of quality in the final piece. What are the figures for higher quality reproductions. Is it only the paper you print on? If you give a printer a page from a lino (at 2400dpi) and some good paper, with maybe a 100 line screen on the stat, are you going to get decent quality? Any one have any experience with getting pictures into print? I would love to be able to get my photographs into camera ready form by scanning and re- touching them on the computer, but I don't know if I have the equipment for that (or if the Atari has the software to do it). Somehow I think I've heard of software that does that but it probably costs more than the computer itself. At least I don't know of anyone who is doing it on an Atari. CD rom seems interesting and possibly a way to do this, but I don't have much info on that. Has anyone seen the Kodak (or any other) system? Can you take a CD, have them transfer the images on it, and then use it to make a good camera ready stat from inside your computer? Could you do it at 300 dpi, or would you need 600, or even a lino output to get good results from a printer? This was written over a period of time, I imagine it sounds a little disjointed, it's just a bunch of thoughts thrown out there. Any comments? Steve ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 150 Tue May 18, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:16 EDT Steve: Harvey McKay ("Swim with the Sharks") has three books out that I'm aware of: Swim with the Sharks, Never Buy a Shirt from a Naked Man (or something like that), and his latest "Sharkproof" currently in hardback only. I share your opinion on his writing -- he hits the nail dead on the head and has you chuckling at the same time. Regarding your newsletter: I just recently had an 11" x 17" job done in one color (black) on a 70# offset stock that ran $118.00 for 1,200 copies (one fold). The prices you list look competitive. My experience has been that you _can_ decrease costs some by supplying you own paper. Be aware of the hazards of this though. The printer may not have worked with the stock previously and there are variables that could effect the printed copy. For example, I just recently ran a brouchure that was printed on a semi-coated textured stock that. There was virtually NO dot gain and my usual screens did not have their standard "pop" and "pizazz". The job was acceptable, but be aware of the fact that when you supply the paper you may be putting the printer at a disadvantage. An option might be to ask the printer to run a single sheet of the paper with another job to see the results before you run the whole job. Some printers I know would simply thrown your single sheet on with another job while it ran. I would be interested in seeing your marketing newsletter. Coincidentally, I'm developing a newsletter marketing piece in newsletter form as well. The cocept falls in line with Sarah & Paul Edwards recommendations that you provide the customer with a sample of your work, educate the customer thereby establishing your credability, and demonstrate the quality of work. If your won't mind F-Mailing it to me, I will reciprocate with the understand that both are "works in progress" and not for general distribution. I think we could probably learn something from each other. I've just run across a book that I'm reading in concert with developing the marketing newsletter that might be of interest to you. It's titled "Marketing with Newsletters" by Elaine Floyd ISBN: 0-9630222-0-2, E.F. Communications, softbound, 232 Pgs., $24.95. It's available from Queblo (800 523-9080). The author uses a marketing concept called RISE (Recognition, Image, Specifics, Enactment) to address marketing with newsletters thoughout the book. This is pretty standard stuff, so the jury is still out while I read the book. Thus far I've gleaned a few gems but nothing earth shattering. I'll post here regarding my final opinion, but be aware that I will be addressing some of the concepts in my marketing piece. Halftones: From strictly a quality standpoint, I'd recommend you go the halftone stat route ($8 per here). One of my more knowledgable printer friends says he has yet to see laser output that wasn't "plugged up". Tkae a look with a 10X glass yourself and you'll find this to be true. If your after good quality output, a.) start with a good to excellent quality photo, and b.) have it professionally screened at the proper reproduction size. Use a reduction wheel to arrive at the proper aspect ratio (they love it when you change up on them!). In reality, halftones are cheap compared to a botched job and a reprint. If you're looking to reduce costs, I'd suggest dropping back to 1200 dpi Lino. The number of lines per inch will sometimes be driven by the quality of paper you're using -- are you using a coated stock? The starting point may, in fact, be your paper. Sounds like paper choice is a more significant factor here..... As I've not used a CD-ROM I'll shut-up here. I would point out though that the quality of the final output may come down to what type of device and resolution you use to produce your mechanicals. When I purchased my LJ4 I thought I might be able to go direct to final with decent scans, now I don't know. I'm experimenting and Nate & Lou have said the Mask module will do screens. So once again to jury is out. The tried and true method would be scan for FPO and use a half-tone on the final mechanical. One last thing -- as I was writing this the thought dawned on me that it might be possible to combine our efforts on this marketing piece, pool our needs for final output and reduce costs by increasing a the final print run. If you're interested in discussing this possibility let's take it E-Mail. -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 151 Tue May 18, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 22:37 EDT Dave and Steve, this sounds like an interesting project. I encourage you to continue the discussion. Maybe you'll find some writers and a moneyman! :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 152 Wed May 19, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 00:04 EDT Steve, You'll find printer's prices will vary depending of the process they use, location, etc. You will need to weigh quality, cost, time of the type of job you want to print. Different printers will give different discounts if you supply your own paper. Many printers will not just subtract the paper costs because they have to allow for the extra problems of customer supplied stock (damaged stock, wrong size, no make-ready), and the loss of the money made on the stock. Because the printer's mark up is not usually high, and the large quantities they buy, (most customers do not buy 20 cartons at one time), most customers do not find it cheaper to supply their own paper. If you do supply you own stock (in addition to what Dave said) you will have to supply more sheets than the quantity you want. The printer will need make-ready sheets both for printing and folding-- and more for 2 sided printing. Also if a printer has a problem running a job on his paper, he'll add more sheets to bring up the quantity. If you supply the paper, you are on the hook for the extra sheets. If you are going to scan in photos, consider only imagesetter output. 300 dpi will get you almost no greys. 600 dpi might be acceptable for the job, (particularly on the paper plates I assume you printer is using) but I don't think it look all that good. 1200 dpi imagesetter output is pretty good, and 2400 is better. At this level you can get some good results--better than 85 line PMTs. If you go the imagesetter route and your printer can use negatives, it should save you some money to go straight to negatives. (I agree with Dave, if you a printing text on film positive to be reshot on paper plates 1200 dpi is likely enough and usually saves about 20%.) In makeing stats, you can gang them, but if you have a wide variation in the photos you lose control (that is you have to shoot them all at the same exposure). You also have to shoot them all at the same size. You will want to only shoot them once at the correct reduction of enlargement, rescreening loses quality and costs money. If your printer uses negs and metal plates, shooting the photots as negative HTs will give you better quality (stats are pretty much limited to 100 lpi and are often 85lpi). I make PMT HTs for some local quick printers, but I only use HT negs in house. Oh, and on paper, a high-bulk, heavy finish papers is the worst for sharp HTs (though you can get some good effects). A coated paper gives you the sharpest dot, but ususally cost more (the paper is more expensive and it cost more to run). A heavy calendard paper is a good substitute, and I get good results from a smooth finish opaque white (coloured papers tend to lower HT contrast, but can work well). This is just a rough guide. I've run a number of books with HTs on a white or off-white felt stock, and the HT's look real nice- -certainly appropriate for the job. Hope this helps. --Roger S. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 153 Thu May 20, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:15 EDT A commentary on Rogers post: With regard to paper costs and charges I have found the best policy is to ASK. I deal with one printer that takes a substantial mark-up on paper. Another I deal with gives me excellent prices. It's a good form to get into a practice of asking (knowing) what the "stock" papers are your printer carries. I've found many "speedy" printers actually special order daily in an effort to hold their inventory costs down. I also find the quality of work is typically better when the pressman is dealing with a known entity (stock paper). Bottom Line: paper costs are variable from printer to printer and the best policy is to get bids with and without paper supplied by the printer. -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 154 Tue May 25, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 23:10 EDT >D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:16 EDT > >Coincidentally, I'm developing a newsletter marketing piece in >newsletter form as well. The cocept falls in line with Sarah & Paul >Edwards recommendations that you provide the customer with a sample of >your work, educate the customer thereby establishing your credability, >and demonstrate the quality of work. > That is basicly what I would like to do. Use the newsletter as a showcase, to let people know what is possible. That is why I have put it on hold for the time being. I want to add photographs pick a good paper and set the focus of the thing to get people thinking about what I can do for them. Then there is the matter of output. Would it be worth the money to have Nathan print it out on his Lino service, or would the offset process just mangle the extra detail. With the amount of junk mail people get, it has to be something that will get their attention. It also has to be preceded/followed by some kind of contact with the people that I'm aiming at. >If your won't mind F-Mailing it to me, I will reciprocate with the >understand that both are "works in progress" and not for general >distribution. I think we could probably learn something from each >other. > Sounds good, I'm going to tweek it a little bit more and then I'll send it over to you. >I've just run across a book that I'm reading in concert with >developing the marketing newsletter that might be of interest to you. >It's titled "Marketing with Newsletters" by Elaine Floyd > Let me know how that is when you finnish.. I've heard of a few newsletters that are available in this area but often the price has been a little steep. >Halftones: From strictly a quality standpoint, I'd recommend you go >the halftone stat route ($8 per here). One of my more knowledgable >printer friends says he has yet to see laser output that wasn't >"plugged up". Tkae a look with a 10X glass yourself and you'll find >this to be true. > What do you mean by plugged up? The dots are so large on the rasters I get at 300dpi that you can see them without a loupe. Question: Is there a difference in quality (when printed) between using a b&w or color originals? > The number of lines per inch will sometimes be driven by >the quality of paper you're using. Sounds like paper choice >is a more significant factor here..... > I was going to create the newsletter and have it printed on the printers standard stock. But then I realized how important chooseing the paper that it would be printed on. Thats how I work with my photography. The frames and mattes that I choose make a big difference to the finnished piece. The side benefit would be that I would be able to monitor the printing and paper costs and get a handle on what each aspect is costing. >I'm experimenting and Nate & Lou have said the Mask module will do >screens. > What do you mean by "screens" , are you talking some kind of half-tone, ready for reproduction? >One last thing -- as I was writing this the thought dawned on me that >it might be possible to combine our efforts on this marketing piece, >pool our needs for final output and reduce costs by increasing a the >final print run. > Sounds like an interesting idea, I'll Fmail my newsletter to you in a day or two. Let me know what you think. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 155 Wed May 26, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 18:08 EDT ======= To: S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] ======= > Question: Is there a difference in quality (when printed) > between using a b&w or color originals? There can be a difference, which is introduced in the darkroom stage, not the actual printing. In a B&W photo the information (shape, background, etc.) is carried by the black, white, and grey tones. In a colour photo, these elements are defined by colour, which masks the contrasting light and dark areas. Most smaller shop use orthochromatic film--i.e. film that is sensitive to blue and greens--when making halftones. (This is because it can be handled under a red safelight, panchromatic film must be handled in total darkness.) Since ortho film is not sensitive to red, it reproduces red as though it were black. This it particulary a problem with many flesh tones, as flesh tones have red in them. Faces will appear dark, shadowed, or indistinct. (Less of a problem most of the time is that blue will tend to disappear, i.e. go to white. I did have a photo of a banner the was blue on white that when shot became blank.) Now a cameraperson can fiddle with the shot to help it look better, but in general you are better off supplying B&W photos for reproduction. Unfortunately most non-professionals these days take only colour photos, and B&W developeing is a problem. It is possible for many of the 1hr photo places to develope B&W in their machines (it comes out brown & white, but that is fine for reproduction), but many of these places are unwilling, or don't know that they can do this. My guess is that this more than you wanted to know. The answer is "yes." :) Roger S. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 156 Thu May 27, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:53 EDT Steve: "Marketing with Newsletters" by Elaine Floyd does appear to be a worthwhile addition to your library. After reading the book I've reoriented my focus somewhat. In addition to the sample newsletter, I have emphasized the importance of developing a marketing plan, doing a market analysis and perhaps surveys in order to get the most "bang-for-your-buck". I'm developing a set of fill-in-the-blank worksheets and forms that will allow me to develop a fairly through marketing plan for each client which will be updated from time to time. My gut feel is that while this eats time, it's a good leg up on the competition. The marketing plan is something that should be done for every newsletter. What I'm doing is formalizing the process. One caution. As my brother pointed out, there are unethical business people out there that will use this type of service to no end with no intention of ever buying the services that come with planning. I would get a commitment (written contract) prior to supplying the plan. My brother sells advertizing copy and has found that people wilkl ask for a proof, not buy ad space, and the next thing he sees is the proof being used in the newspaper for advertizing. Regarding the "plugging" up comment: According to my printer, laser output just doesn't offer the cleanly defined screen grid of a halftone. The breaks in between each dot get connected and "muddy" things up. He feels strongly that laser output lacks the definition necessary to give high quality printed copy. My personal feeling is that the higher resolution printers _should_ do a better job of this. The Mask Module is purported to do some form of screening. Seeign as we can't get anything definitive on the Raster Generator I may take a swipe at using the Mask Module to do screening. I would save me time and my clients cost in the layout of their newsletters. Interesting that you should ask about the difference between B&W and color originals. An article in a recent issue of Editor's Workshop strongly recommended us of B&W over color. It cited cost, fidelity of tone gradiation, and greater exposure latitude as reasons. The article made sense and sold me on using B&W where possible. One question I've been meaning to ask is whether anyone knows if the new Kodak PhotoCD system casn take B&W input as well as color and how well does it reproduce the original photo? My quess would be the tone are "off" as the system is calibrated for color input. My 2 (50) cents worth..... -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 157 Thu May 27, 1993 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 20:10 EST There is another big difference between using b&w and color prints for b&w halftones. Color prints don't look as sharp when reproduced that way. A couple of things contribute to this, including the texture of the paper. But the biggest reason is that color prints are not really as sharp as b&w prints. This is heresy to some, and it can be oversome in a custom printing situation, but color film already has three layers of color dyes on the neg (as opposed to one layer of silver in a b&w neg). When you make a color print, there's another three layers added. It LOOKS sharp enough to the eye because the colors add up to portray the contrasts in the scene. But when the print is halftoned, or if you take a color neg and make a B&W print from it, you see that all those layers make things just a bit fuzzy. If lack of a darkroom is the problem, use Ilford XP2 film, which is a b&w film that can be processed along with the color neg films in a one-hour machine, and have them make the usual color prints from them. They come out brown and white, as Roger mentioned, but you CAN ask them to tilt the color more towards purple than brown, which might give better contrast in the halftone. But the point is, XP2 is a SHARP film, it's ISO 400, and it's convenient. mike.k ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 158 Thu May 27, 1993 D.GORDON2 [DENNIS] at 21:21 EDT Dave: re: B&W prints for Kodak CD: I just happened to have asked the man at Wolf Photo that question today while he was demoing it for me and he said most certainly yes (as though he'd have said no -;) BTW if anyone there can get a copy of Mac/Chicago (a tabloid monthly Mac users mag) the cover was produced with multiple photos imported into Pagemaker from a photoCD and there is a detailed article inside on how it was done. Interesting reading.... ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 159 Fri May 28, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 01:11 EDT Dave @ Binary Ink >My brother sells advertizing copy and has found that people wilkl ask >for a proof, not buy ad space, and the next thing he sees is the proof >being used in the newspaper for advertizing. Amen to that! Everyday I see one of my newspaper ad proofs blown up and pasted on billboards. No sale, hence no contract on _that_ proof. >Regarding the "plugging" up comment: According to my printer, laser output >just doesn't offer the cleanly defined screen grid of a halftone. Well, sort of. The type of output device doesn't really have much to do with creating halfscreens. The device's resolution however, means a lot. 300 to 600 dpi just isn't enough to produce a screen frequency fine enough for professional graphics use. With a 300 dpi laser, you will be lucky to much better than 60 LPI. >Seeign as we can't get anything definitive on the Raster Generator Be nice, now! The Raster Generator U2U is less than a week from testing. I just finished the last of the text and illustrations today. All thats left is to build the new CFTs, example tables, and proof it. BTW, at this point, it's 30+ pages long! Doug7 ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 160 Fri May 28, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 06:18 EDT > If lack of a darkroom is the problem, use Ilford XP2 film... > ....a SHARP film, it's ISO 400, and it's convenient. Thanks Mike, I didn't mention the film. Roger S. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 161 Sat May 29, 1993 J.P.C. at 10:08 EDT RE: 'Proofs' being used as ad copy without getting paid for the work. On all my 'Proofs', I include (free of charge ) the word 'PROOF' in 100pt, 10% raster, set in the background and angled from the lower left corner to the upper right corner. I haven't seen anyone use any of my 'Proofs' for actual ad copy! ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 162 Mon May 31, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 03:48 EDT Well guys, let me explain a little further. Yes, my commercial proofs have "PROOF" in gray on the master page. I'm pretty sure that the billboard company didn't enlarge my original little 4x5" laser proof a jillion times. Their graphics staff probably just copied the layout & copy. Exactly. The only redeeming factor is that the ad looks like s___ at billboard sizes. Twasn't designed for that. Hah, hah. Doug7 ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 163 Fri Jun 04, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 01:36 EDT >R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] > > > Question: Is there a difference in quality (when printed) > > between using a b&w or color originals? > In a B&W photo the information (shape, background, etc.) is >carried by the black, white, and grey tones. In a colour photo, these >elements are defined by colour, which masks the contrasting light and >dark areas. > > in general you are better off supplying B&W photos for >reproduction. > My guess is that this more than you wanted to know. The answer >is "yes." :) ** This was exactly what I wanted to know, and a big help also. The next thing I would like to find out is if there is anyone out there that creates their own Half-tone Stats. I spoke to a guy awhile back that had a vacumme board on his enlarger base. I would imagine, if you were to get the right paper/pos. film that we could make our own stats at the proper size and density inhouse, saving a few bucks, getting exactly what you're looking for and having control over the quality of the product. I have a darkroom and would like to have the ability to do this. I also have the screen-tints that I could use. >D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:53 EDT > >I'm developing a set of fill-in-the-blank >worksheets and forms that will allow me to develop a fairly through >marketing plan for each client which will be updated from time to >time. ** I'd like to see the information you come up with as far as your worksheets go. I think thats a valuable step. >My gut feel is that while this eats time, it's a good leg up >on the competition. > ** It may eat time but having as much information as you can get can get you the work. "Swim with the Sharks" made it plain that information is a very important commodity. It allows you to go after work with some ammunition and avoid unproductive cold calling. >MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 20:10 EST > If lack of a darkroom is the problem, use Ilford XP2 film, ** I have a B/W darkroom, I'm a photographer by profession and would like to set it up with a vaccume table to create my own half-tones. A process camera would be nice but that aint going to happen for awhile. Steve Blackburn ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 164 Fri Jun 04, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:54 EDT Steve: Sounds like the two of us are following similar courses in our marketing efforts. I can now recommend "Marketing with Newsletters" by Elaine Floyd as a worthwhile addition to the library of anyone doing newsletters. It focuses on the heart of the matter, and sharpens _your_ focus as well. It offers advice on editing and writing styles designed to get the desired market response. I've also noted that EF Communications sells a couple other books that might prove worthy reading; "Editing Your Newsletter ($18.50) and "Newsletter Editor's Deskbook" (($12.95). To date I not look at either of the two. EF Communi- cations can be reached at (800) 264-6305. Now for Two Questions: MIKE.KELLER: Would you clarify why Ilford XP2 film can be used without a darkroom? I have some B&W darkroom experience and might consider shooting mug shots and simple stuff for newsletters if I could keep it simple. Eliminating the need for a darkroom might just be the ticket. Why is a vacume (vacuum?) table necessary to doing halftones? My understanding of the process was that halftones are made using a regular copy stand and a glass screen over the original, shot onto "lith" film and processed. So whats this about a vacuum table? Another question (just for good measure). Is it possible to take, say, a 35 mm camera with an appropriate screen filter and _directly_ create a halftone? If so, what type of film would one use? My guess is that must first go to the panchromatic film and be screened, etc. But the idea of going direct to halftone in one step would simplify things as well. Comments please...... -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 166 Sun Jun 06, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 09:08 EDT How many "lurkers" are there out there anyway? Speak up -- don't be afraid.... Just curious. A NEW ANGLE: Yesterday I recieved in the mail a stack of coupons. One of the coupons was for $50.00 off direct mail services. Seems this guy does design, layout, printing, and full service mailing of direct mail marketing pieces. After "chewing on it" for awhile, it seems to me this might be a great "niche" market as well. Layouts for this type of stuff should be less complex than other types of work, and you eliminate the constant "editorial" changes common to other efforts. Printing will typically be a large run which increases your percentage with no additional effort on your part. Mailing can be handled through a very nice contractural agreement with a single mailing service, and the same could apply to dealing with a mailing list broker. The down side is the fact that you have to continually "beat the pavement" for your own marketing. When one considers the pluses and the minuses though it looks like an excellent niche. Anyone out there doing this type of work? I'd like to kick this one around here. I also suggest we cultivate an active discussion of any other "niche" markets that folks here may have identified or are cashing in on would be of benefit to all. Where else can you get free consultation services that are.... PONDEROUS? <> -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 167 Sun Jun 06, 1993 R.BOARDMAN [Robert Board] at 15:16 EDT Dave: As one of the "lurkers" in this Topic, I've been happy so far just watching. I spent 2 years working with Ventura in DOS, and a lot of my high school time in darkrooms at home and at school. My time on Ventura was developing marketing pieces (fliers, catalogues, etc) for a educational video distributer and then getting acceptable proofs ready for our printer. I also spent a fair amount of time with the printer, learning that end of the paper business. I have learned more here in the last 3 months lurking than I did in all that time working in darkrooms and for somebody else. I also don't yet have my own printing business so I feel more comfortable watching and learning than contributing, at least for now. Robert in Toronto ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 168 Sun Jun 06, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 16:44 EDT Robert ... We are ALL learning something from this topic. Personally I think it's great. My thanks to everyone that posts. Dave ... the answer is that thousands "lurk" all over the RT. ;-) The exception is the posters. It is always a sincere pleasure when someone posts for the first time, a new user or a new poster has just as much impact. Meanwhile, I have a question for anyone that cares to comment. Which desktop publishing or graphic magazines do you read and why? Nathan ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 169 Sun Jun 06, 1993 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 17:09 EDT Dave, I read you guys with great interest. Keep it up, PLEASE. The photography tie-in has been most illuminating - A subject that I don't know nearly enough about - And would like to know more. As an aside to the direct mailing approach, in the metro areas, the door-to- door flyers and small newspaper inserts are another area to look at. In the Twin Cities area, that part of the market is TOUGH to compete in. The papers use their own artists and charge little or nothing to the client for the layout part. Of course the layouts are pretty generic, and I can give the client a better ad, but then I have to add my layout costs to the insert price. Same kinda racket with US West's Yellow Pages. You should see some of the junky ads I find rubber-banded to my front door handle. Some look they were done with Printshop, crayons and a 20 year-old copier. "Handyman" services, sewer cleaners, and house painters are the worst offenders around here. I always wonder, just who does this stuff? Doug7 ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 171 Sun Jun 06, 1993 DABRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 20:32 EDT I haven't pursued this myself, but David asked for ideas, so here is one: MENUS. Not our kinda menus, but restaurant menus. Now that Mom's Home Cooking is competing with family dining chains, why not drop by and off to spiff up her menu? It's easy for a non-chain to look just as professional as the big guys...and the food's often better, too. ;-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 172 Sun Jun 06, 1993 DABRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 20:33 EDT Make that "off" into "offer". Don't know what became of my "e" and "r". ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 173 Sun Jun 06, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 20:48 EDT er..I don't know either. Good idea Dorothy. You've reminded me of a great menu that Rolf Berger designed for a client. It's a show piece. ;-) I'll see if he can share it with us. Nathan ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 174 Mon Jun 07, 1993 ISD [Mario] at 00:08 EDT I thought I would list the Publications that I read on a regular basis; Publish, PC Publishing and Presentations, Mac User, Print , Studio, Applied Arts, How, Step By Step, Design, XYZ (UK), EC&I, Mondo 2000, Communication Arts and Aldus Magazine. Quite a consumption level ... and Expensive too... Any other publications worth adding to the list? (I know of a few but cant afford the subscriptions) Mario @ DMC Publishing ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 176 Tue Jun 08, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:06 EDT Robert -- Thanks for posting. It's nice to know somebody is out there. Doug: You mentioned in your post about US West's Yellow Pages and it reminded me of another angle. My brother and his partner publish a "third party" phone book that features a reverse phone directory, a regualr phone directory and community information. The books are advertizing driven and obiviously heavy on advertizing -- coupons display ads and the like. He sells, his partner does layout (on a Mac using old paste-up technique. . . ) The book is distributed FREE to area residents and can be picked up at certain high traffic locations. They've done very well. Seven books out, decent profits, good market penetration, and lots of room for expansion. What all this is leading up to is this: You don't have to simply do layout for US West's book - - you can successfully publish your own and make a living off it. Dot: Menus _can_ work they often change and the customer will frequently come back for you to do the overhaul. The down side is that menus tend to be a one-shot deal with a fair amount of time burned in "selling" the prospect with a single job in return. I've tried to avoid those areas that require a disproportionate amount of time at the selling game. It increases your costs to a point that it becomes difficult to compete with the walk-up "speedy" printers that are on every corner these days. Some folks are successful at menus however. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 177 Tue Jun 08, 1993 S.SAMUELS [ORCA] at 23:54 EDT IMHO,... about making your own halftones.... I do photography as well as DTP with Calamus SL and whatever else works.. ...but when it comes to halftones I -always- take them to a local shop, Marin STAT, in Mill Valley, Calif. This is because they do laser halftones rather than the older method of 'photo-shooting with a glass screen' over the photograph. The difference in final printed output is amazing. Laser halftones are the only way to go. They don't cost but a buck or two more than the old kind. In fact, it was the invention of laser halftones that convinced Ansel Adams to publish some books of his photos, since before they existed he considered the loss in photo reproduction to damaging to his images. Now, if you have a darkroom and do your own printing like I do, you -can- combine this with laser halftones to provide a client with a great service. The thing is this: Most often people provide a b&w photo that is not exposed and/or printed the best way for reproduction purposes. If you check with a professional photo lab on this issue you will find out that they print photos differently for reproduction than for normal viewing. Usually this means higher contrast, but more correctly, not just higher but the proper contrast. Also, in my darkroom, I can crop, size and otherwise correct the image and the print perfectly -before- it goes to the halftoner. Correct sizing for example. Here's what I do: Let's say a layout will use a 2 by 4 inch b&w on the page. Ok, on that page I have a box with a 1pt line where the haltone will be stripped in to the lino output. I cut and paste that box (raster area frame) to a new doc. in SL. Use proportional sizing to make it a realistic size for a photograph, print that page and cut out the inside of the box to use on the enlarger baseboard as a mask or cropping guide when making the photographic print. In the case of a 2 by 4 inch image as in this example, I might make the photo-print twice that size, ie., 4 by 8 inches, and then have that halftoner reduce it to 2 by 4. The freeware (on GEnie) ACC, SCALAWAY is very useful for figuring out exact proportional sizing. If you do this kind of work and don't have it yet, get it! Remember that in SL you can size thing with an accuracy of 0.000 inches (at least) but that most halftoners with only allow for enlargement or reduction in whole number percentage. Plan accordingly! I usually do my own stripping in of the halftones onto the lino pages. That is if they are 'paper' lino pages. If they are film, I leave it to the printer. As to costs,...sheesh! It is much more cost effective in terms of time and materials to let the halftoner do them for me than to do it myself, plus the fact that I can't begin to equal the quality of laser halftones. I hope this helps someone. My little fingers are sore! ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 178 Wed Jun 09, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 02:04 EDT ORCA, These "laser halftones?" Does that mean you are getting positive printouts of scaned photos? Roger S. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 179 Wed Jun 09, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:19 EDT YET ANOTHER NICHE IDEA: For some time I've given consideration to the following concept. I'm looking for feedback here whether or not others might be interested in participating in a venture of this type. As many of you are aware, I contract to do newletters for businesses and the like. In looking for unexploited "niche" markets one concept that I've toyed with is restricting my newsletter efforts to strictly medical and dental newsletters. Now before you reject the idea read on. Physicians and Dentists are bound by tradition to the forms of advertizing that are "accepted" by the profession. Although there has been some relaxing of the standards full blown newspaper and direct mail advertizing jsut aren't done. To a professional, their client base is a cherished commodity. Newsletters _are_ an accepted form of keeping in touch with their patients and approaching new prospects such as new arrivals in town, etc. With the current trends in health care, the emphasis is on health maintaince. There are significant changes in the method filing insurance claims and many more changes on the horizon with the Clinton Health reform initiatives. People need to be informed and health care providers need to maintain contact. This need is pretty universal. In Augusta, GA there are 900 (that's right... 900) physicians. These guys have to market just like anyone else. If someone was to specialize in providing health care newsletters it could be a potentially lucrative market. Here's why. Clip art needs would be restricted to this area. "Generic" articles focusing in general medical or dental information could be used in multiple newsletters. With several accounts going you could enlist the aid of a writer to assist with the writing of these type articles (Docs are notorious for busting deadlines... ). With a little effort a "newsletter factory" could also develop a side-line on gathering mail list information for newcomers to their area (via new newspaper subscriptions, utility customers, etc.) and provide mailing services to boot. Now for the "kicker". If a _group_ of folks linked via modem where to pursue this effort and work colaboratively (sharing clip art, articles and the like) it would be a _slick_ operation. My background happens to be health care administration and I'm licensed as a nurse. I've also been a SYSOP. I'd be willing to set up a "MedLetter" Central BBS in order to support this type of effort if enough folks voiced an interest. Health Care has become a "cash cow" for a lot of people. With the coming health care reforms and present health care market it looks like a market ripe for exploitation by little DTP folks. I'm convinced this one could work and have begun to go after this market in my own operation. It could be relatively easy effort with several folks collaborating. Joint efforts could be realized in marketing as well as potentially sharing "boilerplate" .CDK's that leave space for that "custom designed" look. Chew on that for a minute..... I'm looking for feedback on this one from anyone that might be interested in taking a shot at this. My guess would be that someone looking to get into this part time or nights could also make this work. FEEDBACK PLEASE. -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 181 Wed Jun 09, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 10:43 EDT >.....Eliminating the need for a darkroom might just >be the ticket. > >Another question (just for good measure). Is it possible to take, >say, a 35 mm camera with an appropriate screen filter and _directly_ >create a halftone? > Eliminating the time and expense would be a nice thing, but there isn't a filter available that would do that. If you shoot with 35mm you would most likely have to enlarge the negative to get the desired size, even with a mug shot. As you enlarge the negative, you enlarge the dot pattern that this un- invented filter would produce. The only way I could see eliminating the darkroom would be to have the negatives printed to CD (but then you are trading a chemical darkroom with an electronic one), and using a software program (if an affordable one exists) to process the image for publication. This is probably just a dream at the moment without major bucks and another platform. >Why is a vacume (vacuum?) table necessary to doing halftones? A glass screen works but a vaccume table offers you more options, is easier to use and lot of fun. You can do the same thing with a Glass screen with holder. >D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 09:08 EDT > >How many "lurkers" are there out there anyway? Speak up -- don't be >afraid.... Just curious. > I was a lurker for about a year before I started posting. Aladin was the main reason I started posting. I could never use Genie for much before it. >The down side is the fact that you have to continually "beat the >pavement" for your own marketing. > Yeah :-) isn't that a bitch. It makes you feel like a politco type that starts running for the next race before he's coold off from the present race. What is really necessary is to have some kind of agent getting you the work, at least the leads. That would free you concentrate on the production and creation of your work. Marketing can take a lot out of you, including the quality of work and creativeness that is needed. > I also suggest we cultivate an active discussion of any other >"niche" markets that folks here may have identified > That's a good idea, throwing ideas around is one way of defining what you want to do. Local politics seems to be an interesting path to follow. Political literature is pretty uniform. If you could get the right contacts you could have a continuous flow of work from people running for offices accross surrounding cities and states. Just watch that they don't ask you for too many DONATIONS. ---------- >R.BOARDMAN [Robert Board] at 15:16 EDT > > >I have learned more here in the last 3 months lurking than I did in >all that time working in darkrooms and for somebody else. > You know what we really should do! Raid some of the other message bases for marketing people (sales) and form an online networking system. Dave can do the Graphics, I'll do the Newsletters, Lou can handle brochures etc...:-) >POTECHIN [Nathan] at 16:44 EDT > >Meanwhile, I have a question for anyone that cares to comment. Which >desktop publishing or graphic magazines do you read and why? > Nathan I just saw a magazine the other day that caught my interest. It was a large magazine that delved into how different pieces of art were accomplished. I think it was called Step-by-Step. It was facinating, they took different art pieces or ads and recreated them step-by-step. It ran about $9 per issue but was well done and seems worth the money. Publish is one that I read, since it is the only magazine that I know of that deals with this area. HOME OFFICE COMPUTING provides info on running a business from your home, it's pretty generic and doesn't deal totally on computer business ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 182 Wed Jun 09, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 18:42 EDT Dave, outstanding idea. I am interested in chatting further. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 183 Wed Jun 09, 1993 R.BOARDMAN [Robert Board] at 19:24 EDT Dave: We have socialized medicine up here in Canada, as those of you in the U.S. are aware. It means doctors probably don't have to compete for clients as much which lessens the need for advertising. However dentists are not on the government payroll, even though most of them rely mainly on insurance companies for payment instead of the individual consumer. However, I can see a strong need for some basic health information (coupled with reminders about regular visits, health checks, etc) in the form of a newsletter, and the info could be targetted at particular groups who have particular health concerns or who are in high risk populations. Without breaking confidentiality, physicians' assistants could total the number of people already having or likely to have cardiac problems let's say, let the DTP'er know how many copies needed for this group, and a portion of the general newsletter could be designed around that particular health concern. As has been said thousands of times, there is too much information available for most of us to keep up. Narrowing the focus of the marketting and of the research could be profitable. Keep me in touch. Robert in Toronto ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 184 Thu Jun 10, 1993 TPHOMMEL [brother Denn] at 07:23 EDT Has this topic been compiled and posted as a file lately? My Hard Drive had a borderline bad sector: when I wrote my DTP file to disk, it was fine; when I tried to reread it to append other things to it, the drive failed me. I'm hoping that I can d/l the whole thing rather than trying to recapture the message base. Thanks. Dennis ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 185 Thu Jun 10, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 07:43 EDT Topics are usually compiled when they clear the 200 message mark Dennis. Taking a quick peak, I doubt it will be long now before the ever efficient Terry or Jim swoop in and clean it up, archive it and vanish back into the ozone layer from which they sprang. ;-) Nathan ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 186 Thu Jun 10, 1993 VORTEXT at 21:50 EDT The only magazine I subscribe to is Publish. I find the information there more generic than some of the others I've seen. In other words, I can use some of the stuff within its pages. Other suggestions are welcome. I just don't see many other mags at my local book store, Barnes and Noble. Daniel dave, It's not a bad idea, but why limit yourself? Doctors and dentists are not the only potential clients. A network of the sort your proposing could work for a varied group of individuals. For instance, I belong to a local theatre company, and they put out a semi- regular newsletter to help keep the membership informed as to what is going on and who's doing what. Now before you all go "So what." Bear in mind that the budgets for these groups (the one's here anyway) often reach the $250,000 range per show. Not just small time anymore. There are a number of these types of theatre groups across the country who could be approached about newsletters and such. Then there is also the side bar of printing their programs, tickets, fliers and posters. Think about it. Several shows a year, each one needs its own material... Daniel ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 187 Thu Jun 10, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 21:52 EDT Dennis, I would be glad to capture and email the messages in this topic for you. Please advise. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 188 Fri Jun 11, 1993 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 00:27 EDT Lou, Please consider archiving the messages from here. I've been selectively saving as I go, and although much is either over my head or out of my league, have been learning a fair amount. Perhaps others may find the content useful also. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 189 Fri Jun 11, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 00:39 EDT Jonesy, not to worry. This topic _will_ be archived by the BBS sysops when the message count is closer to 200. I was simply offering to capture and email the current messages for Dennis who was having a hard drive problem and did not want to wait for 188 messages to scroll by again :-) On your other point - dead on. This topic is one of the most informative ones around and it does bear re-reading at later dates. Many thanks to those who have contributed their professional discussions to this topic. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 190 Fri Jun 11, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:06 EDT Glad to see a response to the Medical/Dental newsletter post. As I've mulled this one over, I've given though to the potential for setting things up similar to a syndicate for articles, comics, etc. in the newspaper. Produce a generic "shell" newsletter that leave space for personalized information regarding the client purchasing the newsletter. Maybe some options in terms of extra articles that could be switched out should the client not want to use one. The availablity of clip art appropriate to the market and maybe some generic layouts for specific reminders etc. that would require a limited amount of modicification. The beauty of it is that the amount of layout and design work is minimized, the product would look professional and it could be done as a part time operation. -- Dave @ Binary Ink Still "chewin' on it". . . . ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 191 Fri Jun 11, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:49 EDT VORTEXT: Thanks for your thoughts on newsletters for groups other than physicians and dentists. The primary advantage in narrowing the focus is that it permits a greater degree of specialization in clip art and obtaining text copy. The medical offers a broad enough range of possibilities for "generic" health fitness articles similar to what you'd see in most newspapers. The medical/dental arena is a widespread market that is restricted in the forms of advertizing they can use while having a need to reach their clientele. Think "NICHE". The theater market would be a niche market, but IMHO lacks depth in most communities. Further, I've found that due to the heavy "art" focus of most thespians the theatical market looks for uniquely designed work. Syndicated work wouldn't nesessarily fit with that picture. That doesn't mean that you could develop a newsletter for them though... Goferit! -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 192 Fri Jun 11, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 11:13 EDT Jonesy ... Check out library #13. It contains all the archived messages from the BB. Nathan ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 193 Fri Jun 11, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 18:20 EDT Dave, The generic "shell" idea is likely a good one. Often the only way to make money on something like this is to keep costs way down. Customers can like the newsletter idea, but are often not willing to send much on it (or at least what a "custom" newsletter costs). Keeping things cheap will broaden your potential client base greatly. This idea must work because I do see it being done. There are several "generic" newsletters for printers (i.e., you get artwork and stories and then customize). This is a special case, but I do think this idea spreading. I have seen a offerings to other professions being made. One thing to keep in mind is area exclusivity. Two dentists in the same town would likely not want to be sending out the same basic piece. In the offers I've seen, you usually get exclusive rights to a certain area (1 or more zip codes, a county, etc.). I suppose if each newsletter's "look" was different you could still use many of the same materials in it with a problem. --Roger S. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 194 Fri Jun 11, 1993 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 22:12 EDT Lou, Thanks for the reassurance. Sorry for misunderstanding. Like not a few who look at (a) their stack of bills, (b) their paycheck, and (c) their hard-won neat-o system, one thinks: can there be a way to learn how to use this gizmo to put some food on the table? Whether I'll ever be able to afford to do some of what I'd like to try, gathering some useful tips and tricks of the trade seems a good idea, even if only for educational value. Dave, Sounds like a good idea to me. I'll be interested to see what it might grow in to. Nathan, Thanks for the reminder. I don't think I've 'un-joined' any libraries, but often the file listings will fly by and not register with what passes for mind these days. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 195 Sat Jun 12, 1993 VORTEXT at 00:06 EDT Dave, Actually, the theatre stuff was sort of an offshoot of my ramblings. Theatre work wouldn't be much for a syndicated type venture, but it IS a market that DTPers like us could get into. Some theatre groups spend great deals of money on publicity, brochures etc. Others like to keep costs minimal. Either way, there could be a great deal of work if someone could show them how they could do high quality product for a fraction of the cost. Programs could be done cheaply. it's a one time simple set up, and most groups just photocopy the things anyway. Posters, brochures and other promotional material could lead to other work. And as groups will do three to five shows a year, you can get repeat business. Of course a lot depends on just how much money you want to make. Daniel ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 196 Sat Jun 12, 1993 S.SAMUELS [ORCA] at 03:54 EDT Roger, A laser halftone refers to the laser process of producing halftones. It has nothing to do with a laser printer. Exactly what part the laser plays in making the halftone, I don't know. It is a different way of making a halftone than by the older method of photographing a B&W print with a dot screen layed over the print. The 'product' you get from this can be either a film negative or positive and/or a paper negative or positive. Most often what is wanted is just a paper positive. That is, the halftone looks just like the B&W photo you started with except that it has been translated into a dot pattern. This dot pattern is called a 'line screen' and comes in various sizes of 'lines per inch' or lpi. It is important to know from your printshop what they require in lpi for halftones -before- you get your photos made into halftones. Different print shops, different presses and different papers and the type of job being done will require different lpi's. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 198 Sun Jun 13, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 10:01 EDT Roger: I'm unaware of generic "shell" newsletters being offered to other professions could you embelish on this? Which professions? What do the shells look like? Are they offered just a shell to printers or as a custom service? Interesting to see that someone else is already doing it and there may be something to be learned from the way that they go about it. You mentioned exclusivity. A problem area that I had begun to consider. I had not thought of Zip Code regions, but it offers an possibility. There might be a solution in designing several styles of nameplates, cover and body pages that could be used interchangably -- diffent look -- same content. Another approach would be to offer several newsletter formats and allow the client to pick and choose from a variety of articles. Each article might come with suggested keylines, layout suggestions, clip art, etc. Still Brainstorming. The concept presents some interesting possibilities and could potentially allow someone to get into DTP part time and develop their skills and knowledge. It certainly would generate some cash necessary to getting a full time business off the ground. If one was particularly through, marketing materials, a sample business plan and other "particulars" could be supplied to assist the transition. -- Dave @ Binary Ink Dan: Good point on brouchures and programs -- they would be a recurring need and sound like a worthy target. My experience has been that once you get a "foot in the door" a lot of other incidentals seem to come your direction. They're both a pleasant diversion from other work and a nice supplement to the income. As long as you don't go after these as your primary source of income they're great. I've found that the time and effort invested in hussling the small, one shot stuff just doesn't yield a profit. I've pretty much restricted myself to doing it as addtional work for existing clients or taking it on when I think it will lead to big things from a new client. Regards, -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 199 Sun Jun 13, 1993 VORTEXT at 12:43 EDT Dave, I totally agree about it being supplemental income. As a primary source you'd go hungry. But extra money is always nice to pick up. Or for someone looking to do DTP as a hbby type venture, theatre type work could be a great target market. For me, it's something I'm looking to pursue ustrickly as added income to my normal work. If I can make a couple of extra dollars, why the heck not. Daniel ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 200 Sun Jun 13, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 18:55 EDT ORCA, I know well what my print shop requires in terms of lpi for H/Ts--after all I run the shop . I do all mu H/T work in house, as negatives unless they they come in already done as PMTs--which is seldom and not preferable. (Or prescanned for imagsetter output.) I have just not run across the term "laser halftone" before that I recall. David, Most of the "boilerplate" newsletters I have seen are for printers-- obviously because I get printer magazines and direct mail ads. I have seen franchises or affilated companies put out newsletters/sales sheets that were basied on the same basic material with local customised insertions. I also saw an offering for a dentist's newletter. The customizing was minimal, really just adding the particular dentist's name and address and little more. The company offering it handled most everything. You gave them your mailing list (or they came up with one) and they had the newsletter produced and mailed. I have a couple of complaints with some of these newsletters. The material is often too generic--i.e. it has little to do with the particular business or even the type of business in general--and the material is of poor quality. Gardening tips for Spring plantings that are sent out in the Fall's podiatrist's newsletter don't seem like the most effective to me--at least if they are all that is offered. I find sometimes these publications can sound like they took thier material from 1960's Reader's Digests. (Which I used to read when I was young, but can sometimes be a little bland, out of date, and are sometimes sexist, or homophobic, etc.) --Roger S. ------------ Category 16, Topic 27 Message 201 Mon Jun 14, 1993 D.STMARTIN [Binary Ink] at 07:10 EDT Cliff: How about sharing some of you money-making ideas? Maybe we can help to refine them and considering the number of folks using Atari systems to do this type of work, there's probably not going to be competition right around the corner...... 'Les we're talkin' 'bout Sheldon ;-) -- Dave @ Binary Ink ------------