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The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 19 Wed Jun 30, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:20 EDT Sub: Geneva - Multitasking Environment The following topic will cover messages and discussions regarding GENEVA, the Multitasking Application Environment from Gribnif Software. 202 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 1 Wed Jun 30, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:22 EDT We've just uploaded the press releases to our newest software product for the Atari: GENEVA. In short, Geneva is a Multitasking Application Environment for the Atari ST, STE, TT/030, and Falcon. The press releases are: GEDESC.TXT - A brief description of GENEVA and a brief company overview. File# 29183 GENEVA.TXT - The main GENEVA news release, everything you want to know! File# 29182 GEBETA.TXT - Information on how to become a GENEVA beta tester. Gribnif Software ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 2 Wed Jun 30, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 18:37 EDT Dan ... CONGRATULATIONS! Nathan @ DMC ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 3 Thu Jul 01, 1993 MUSE [Tomas] at 02:18 EDT Dan, Hey great, the baby has a name! "Geneva" makes it sound like a peaceful, cooperative environment. ===Tomas=== June 30, 1993 @ 10:40:14 pm PDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 4 Thu Jul 01, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 14:01 EDT Well, I guess the million dollar question is: How do Geneva compare to MTOS and other systems multitasking environments? ~~~~Brian ... Written on Thursday 01 July 1993 at 01:50 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 5 Thu Jul 01, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:17 EDT Brian, Geneva is faster, with a great deal more features. Geneva can run up to 256 applications at once. In testing, Geneva does not slow down until more than a half-dozen apps are running. (This varies, of course, with the type of application. For example, I have run 11 or 12 text readers at once, while launching major apps in the foreground and background, without a significant slowdown on my TT.) Geneva can put applications to sleep, so that they are effectively removed from the OS. (They merely take up memory, while getting no messages from the OS and displaying nothing on the screen.) Apps can be put to sleep using a menu click or via a hotkey, and they can be awakened with a simple click. Geneva includes a completely rewritten code for the AES (Application Environment Services), which supplies all the desktop functions for the ST and TT (and Falcon, of course). As a result, among the benefits are cleaner windowing operations and more intelligent window sizing controls. The cleaner windowing operations show up as faster opening and closing than would otherwise be possible using the standard AES or the AES included in MultiTOS. In other words, Geneva is faster at many operations than the latest TOS-AES system -- even when it is multitasking. (And it multitasks all the time; like the Mac's System 7, there is no such thing a single-tasking mode.) The more intelligent window sizing controls allow you to make windows as small as possible -- so small that only the gadgets are showing -- and let you resize a window in ANY direction. You can also configure your windows so that the horizontal and vertical sliders are narrower than the standard ones, and you can set your desktop font to any GDOS font and any size. When you use a small size for the font, the entire desktop window suite is reduced in size, allowing ST High Res and TT Med Res screens to show more than any other desktop would allow. As I have pointed out, Geneva multitasks all the time. This means that while you are running one application, you merely switch (via menu or hotkey) to the main desktop and run another one. As is possible in Windows 3.1, you can switch immediately from one running application to another via a hotkey -- and the default hotkey is the same one that Windows uses. Applications that run in the background can be moved to the right, to the left -- yes, to the LEFT, off the screen, which is not possible with the standard AES -- or down off the bottom of the screen, so that only the top menu bar is showing. Or, of course, they can be put to sleep, a perfect mode for a word processor that you need to have handy at all times. (Or a formatting program, or a desktop publishing application, and so on.) Geneva is perfectly compatible with Warp 9 and vice versa, and it is also fully compatible with the European competitor for Warp 9, NVDI. (NVDI includes a replacement GDOS, so it has a few advantages over Warp 9, but Warp 9 is cleverer at doing many of its operations.) Geneva eliminates the limit of six desk accessories. if you have more DAs than will fit in the desk menu, and arrow appears that automaticaly scrolls the list down (or up) when your mouse pointer passes over it. This list also includes applications,a nd one way to switch among applications (to make one of them the top application) is to click on the name of the app in the desk menu list. This name does not have to be the filename of the app; you can configure Geneva to use an English (or other) phrase there instead of a filename. Geneva also eliminates the conflicts that have plagued the loading and unloading of desk accessories ever since 1985. DAs can be loaded and unloaded on the fly (they can even be run just by clicking on them), something that cannot be done ordinarily. As an example, those of you who own MultiDesk Deluxe probably know that MDD issues a warning whenever you resize one of MDD's buffers (by loading a new DA, for example) while running an alternative desktop. This warning is necessary because the alternative desktop is actually a program, and the standard AES cannot reliably handle the fragmentation of memory that occurs when you increase the memory allocation of an application like MultiDesk. (It's not a problem with MDD; it's a problem with any desk accessory, because of the Atari OS.) Geneva eliminates that problem entirely. Geneva is compatible with the vast majority of current software, but that's only the beginning. Geneva takes advantage of the new Atari guidelines for 3D buttons and gadgets in applications, so that such new software as Atari Works and STraight FAX! 1.07 have a multidimensional look, just as they do on the Falcon. The latest Diamond Edge is another program that includes the new 3D look, when run under Geneva. Geneva's own windows and gadgets are all three-dimensional. 3D buttons actually push down when you press them with the mouse. At present, Geneva maintains the desktop window limit of seven, but does NOT include desk accessory windows and application windows in that total. Thus the effective limit on the number of windows is removed entirely. You will never see the dreaded "Out of windows!" message in Geneva as long as you have not tried to open an eighth desktop (i.e., file and folder) window, even if you have dozens of application windows open at the same time. Geneva's speed is very impressive. I'll post some results of various tests of both my TT and my wife's ST while running Geneva and while running a standard configuration. The test results should be available shortly. At present, only NeoDesk takes advantage of Geneva's multitasking. But Gribnif will supply documentation that developers can use to change the code of other desktop systems. It is my understanding that some systems such as HotWire need only a few changes, while others would need extensive reworking. There is much, much more. I will be away for a week and a half, so if you have questions about Geneva, post them before mid-morning on Friday. I'll try to catch up with any other questions when I get back. And, yes, I am involved in the Geneva project, but only in terms of testing and documentation. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 6 Thu Jul 01, 1993 AEO.7 [Gregg] at 21:38 EDT Al, this sounds VERY interesting! I'll be looking forward to hearing more and maybe seeing it run (along with the CDots board) at the next show. I'd be curious to see about trying it on my system (Mega4/TOS 1.4) but I don't do NEODesk... sorry bout that. Please keep in touch, I'm seriously interested in this product (I've tried MTOS.... I'd be interested in doing a few comparison tests). Gregg ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 7 Thu Jul 01, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 21:48 EDT Al, Whew! Sounds pretty impressive. Who is the author of Geneva? __ /erry .\\ay ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 8 Thu Jul 01, 1993 GRMEYER [Gordon/Sysop] at 22:28 EDT Al - Geneva sounded great up until the very end. Can you clarify what you meant when you said that the only program that multi-tasks with it right now is NeoDesk (paraphrase)? Thanks, Gordon ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 9 Fri Jul 02, 1993 R.WHITTAM at 01:51 EDT One thing I would like to see added to the desktop menu as a standard feature with DESK FILE VIEW and OPTIONS is "APPLICATIONS". An intellegently setup menu or program launcher (scrollable). Intellegent in that it could search you hard drive for ALL Programs (GEM, TOS, and TTP) allowing you to pick and choose which to keep on the list. This APPLICATIONS addition needs to be part of you GENEVA desktop in my opinion. . . What do you think? Ron Whittam ABUG ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 10 Fri Jul 02, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 02:27 EDT This is great news. By the way, was Geneva code name Magic? I read the release and the Beta offer. My question is what would be the possible upgrade path from Neodesk 3.03 to Geneva/Neodesk 4 Bundle. Brian, "how does this compare to MTOS" Not having seen either products I could not answer this but as a happy long time Neodesk user I have to assume that Gribnif will continue to do things better than Atari. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 11 Fri Jul 02, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 05:53 EDT GRMEYER - I believe he said that NeoDesk was the only ALTERNATIVE DESKTOP program which currently works with Geneva, not the only PROGRAM. If that's not right, then the only other meaning I get out of what he said was that Geneva currently REQUIRES NeoDesk to multitask. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 12 Fri Jul 02, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 09:12 EDT Steve, Thanks for clarifying my point about NeoDesk and Geneva. You're right -- I meant that the only CURRENT way to get multitasking with Geneva is through NeoDesk; all the other features operate with any, repeat, any desktop system. I'll try to explain. One of my favorite freeware offerings is TeraDesk, the Dutch alternative desktop (available here on GEnie in an English version). Tera runs fine as a TASK under Geneva; that's all that Geneva can accommodate for TeraDesk, since Tera was not written with any multitasking hooks in it. But that also means I can base my setup on NeoDesk/Geneva, and run TeraDesk as one of tbe tasks; voila (or, as one of my musician friends says, "viola!"), you have two desktops, and can switch from one to the other in a fraction of a second. Ron, I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting for the Geneva applications menu, but it sounds like a good idea. Geneva already works in some ways like that, but I'd better explain that, also. There is, as yet, no facility for having Geneva list all the applications on your hard drive in the desk menu, and I know that Dan Wilga, the author of Geneva, is unlikely to add that. The applications list would be quite large in many systems. In mine, for example, such a list could easily run to a couple of hundred names. What the desk menu list DOES include, however, is a list that is more useful. I'll pull down my list and describe it: It has three sections: - The "About" section, which gives information about the application that is currently the "topped" window. Note that this is not the same as the "active" application, since many apps can be active at the same time. It merely represents the app that is taking keyboard input, among other things. (More on this later, since you CAN send input and get output from other apps at the same time....) - The "Applications" section, which lists all the current apps. Applications that are awake are listed in normal typeface, and apps that are asleep are in italics. Apps that are single-tasking are listed in a smaller-than-usual typeface. The currently topped application has a checkmark in front of the name. (More on single-tasking apps later.) - The "Desk Accessories" section, which lists all DAs that are running. DAs can be put to sleep, and so the explanation of how sleeping and awakened apps are listed applies here also. The list is always in alphabetical order, within each section. The names are assignable. I mentioned single-tasking apps. Mac users have known for some time that the Mac's MultiFinder (a sort of semi-multitasker) and its new System 7x (a more serious multitasker) have problems with some applications. These programs expect the virtual machine to be the same as the actual machine -- in other words, they were not written to share the OS with any other running application, and in fact often prevent any other application from operating properly. Geneva has no problem at all with these applications; it runs them as single- tasking apps. When such an app runs, Geneva puts all other running applications to sleep automatically. When you switch from the single-tasking app to another app, Geneva put the single-tasking app to sleep for you. This is not just theory or a great plan; it's what I am doing (and have been doing for some time) when running Aladdin. Aladdin runs very well under Geneva, but only as a single-tasker. (It WILL multitask, but not while accessing the serial port, so the best way of using it is in S-T mode.) To switch to full m-tasking, I pull down the desk menu and click on any other app, and the desktop immediately switches to the other app (or to NeoDesk's desktop). On the TT, this takes place in about half a second; on the ST, it takes slightly longer. I mentioned that Geneva allows any app to continue to receive and display information even when it is not the topped window. (This is true even in situations in which the application's "window" is the entire desktop; the other apps currently running are just hidden underneath that full screen.) For example, ST ZIP 2.2 will compress or extract a large file while running in the background, but the display will continue to show the progess of the operation. The multitasking copy-and-format program recently uploaded here -- designed for MultiTOS -- works nicely as a background app, showing the progress of the task it is running. Text editors that can fit into smaller- than-full-size windows can be doing search-and-rreplace operations while other apps have the foreground priority. (A quick note here: An application does not NEED to have any sort of multitasking code built in to multitask. The situation is the opposite: All apps need to behave, period. Some do not. WordPerfect multitasks, and even Flash 1.62 multitasks, although they run more reliably as S-T apps.) This cooperative framework allows many operations that are otherwise impossible under lesser operating systems. For example, windows (of any kind -- app windows or desktop file-and-folder windows) can be resized in the background, merely by holding down the right mouse button while using the left button in the standard way. Windows can be scrolled in the background, too. As Dan mentioned in the press release, another amazing feature of Geneva is its ability to turn any GEM application's menus into tear-off menus. This is a feature of the Motif operating system, not yet available (in stock form) in Windows 3.1. Control-click frees an entire menu to be placed anywhere on the screen. I've used this feature with Motif for a couple of years, and it's a godsend. Finally, users always want to know whether a new OS is compatible -- whether it will run their software. I've been running Geneva FULL-TIME for quite a few months, without any change in habits (except, of course, for having the benefits of multitasking!), and without the need to revert to a stock setup AT ANY TIME. This is very important. My wife's ST -- an AdSpeed-equipped 1040 with 4 megs of RAM -- also has been running Geneva for the same period, and it, too, has had no problems with the apps she normally runs. Specifically, one of the apps I run constantly is ST FAX!, which behaves almost perfectly as a background application. It disappears whenever another app is placed in the foreground (and remember that the "other" app can be the desktop!). but continues to monitor the serial port for calls. When a call comes in, it pops to the foreground, takes the call, and then disappears again. It does the same thing when it has scheduled fax transmissions. This is a little annoying, since I'd rather see it work in total background mode, but it's a heck of a lot better than tying up the TT whenever the fax software is running. (And newer versions of ST FAX! may solve this last problem.) By configuring ST FAX! to use one of the TT's ports, and STalker to use another, and Flash II to use a third, I am able to run THREE telecomm apps at the same time. (Actually, I am able to run four, but I've done that only in testing.) This is just an example. And, again, there is much more -- a great deal morer - - than I have stated so far. Geneva is the most significant development in Atari computing since the introduction of the ST in 1985. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 13 Fri Jul 02, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:22 EDT See Flat, Yes, Magic was Geneva's development name. We have not yet established the upgrade policy for doing both NeoDesk 3->4 and Geneva, but there will be one. We plan to send out newsletters when Geneva is completely finished, and NeoDesk 4 is ready. At this point, that is going to be around October 1. R.Whittam, Geneva actually has very limited program launching facilities, by default. There is just an item selector (which, by the way, shows just those files that end in PRG, ACC, TOS, TTP, etc.) to launch programs with. This is actually quite intentional. Not only does having the desktop in memory consume lots of precious RAM, but not everyone likes every file launching shell. Some people don't even like NeoDesk . The idea is to leave the system open to other desktops, though NeoDesk will, of course, be the best option . Gordon, In order to launch multitasking programs, a shell must use the shel_write() system call. Most shells never used this method previously, because it had limitations. However, for MultiTOS, Atari defined an extended version of shel_write() which took care of most of these limitations. As it is right now, shells which do not use shel_write() will not work at all under MultiTOS. However, under Geneva, these shells can run programs, but when they do they themselves will become inaccessible until the child program quits. (Geneva enters "single-tasking" mode. You can get back to multi-tasked programs in this mode, but this would put the single-tasked program to sleep.) NeoDesk 3.03 automatically decides if the new shel_write() mode is available. This means that if you run a program with NeoDesk 3.03 under Geneva or MultiTOS, it will run correctly and NeoDesk will still be available to run other programs. Since the change needed for a shell to use the shel_write() call is very trivial, and not just specific to Geneva, I suspect that it will not be long before other shells are upgraded to use this method. If you do not use NeoDesk to launch programs, you can either have them load automatically every time you reboot, or you can run them manually from the Geneva item selector. Al, Actually, Geneva can run up to 32,767 applications at once . There is a limit of 256 windows, though. (Such a limit!) The only case where a program will be limited to seven windows is if it places such a limit internally (like NeoDesk does) or if it does not get along properly with higher numbers for window handles (like Calamus, for which a compatibility flag is available.) Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 14 Fri Jul 02, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:32 EDT Jim Ness asked us to benchmark Geneva using his NBM benchmark program. Here are the results: System used for test: 1040 ST, TOS 1.2 in ROM, 1 MB of RAM, monochrome display Conditions of test: TOS 1.2 - Booted up with a blank floppy, no accessories, no AUTO folder programs. Ran NBM from built-in desktop. MultiTOS 1.1 - Booted with a plain MultiTOS 1.1 setup, no accessories, no other programs. Attempts to run NBM from the MultiTOS desktop resulted in a "Failed to Launch" error message. Used "Control-Click" on the DESKTOP entry in the "Desk" menu to remove the MultiTOS desktop. Ran NBM from the MultiTOS "Run" menu entry. This worked, but the mouse pointer turned into and remained in a "busy bee" shape for the duration of the NBM test. Geneva - Booted up with a plain Geneva setup, running the Geneva Task Manager (optional, but I kept it running, since a typical installation would). Ran NBM from the Geneva "Run" menu entry. Note: Since I kept the Task Manager running, Geneva was actually running two applications at once while conducting the test. Results of test: | TOS 1.2 | MultiTOS | % Diff | Geneva | % Diff | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Math routines | 16.57 | 27.60 | 60.04% | 16.67 | 99.40% | Memory fetch/store | 16.18 | 27.00 | 59.93% | 16.33 | 99.08% | Dialog box redraw | 38.95 | 40.57 | 96.01% | 33.23 | 117.21% | Graphics | 149.34 | 151.26 | 98.73% | 157.27 | 94.96% | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Average 100% 78.67% 102.66% Comments on drawing speed: Most of the drawing on the system is handled by the VDI, which Geneva does not touch. Therefore, users of WARP 9 would find a substancial speed increase in the "Dialog box redraw" and "Graphics" options. If you use a complete VDI replacement, like the German "NVDI" you will notice a substancial speed increase in drawing in both MultiTOS and Geneva (NVDI is MultiTOS compatible). However, Geneva would still draw dialogs and windows faster due to its faster AES code. What is missing in this test is a "Windows" test. Showing how fast each environment can open windows, redraw them (especially when overlapping), scroll them, and close them. Like the "Dialog box redraw" this is an area where Geneva should surpass both TOS 1.2 and MultiTOS 1.1. Rick @ Gribnif ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 15 Fri Jul 02, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:42 EDT So if I didnt' miss anything, Geneva is a viable multitasking system for 68,000. Unlike Atari's MTOS which is only realisticaly useable on 030 machines. Can we order the Beta version now? Rick, When you kept saying at CAF 93 that you were "_Sure_" there would be a better alternative to Multitasking very soon for the ST I just new you had something very good up your sleve! :-) I think you should have called it NulliTos to get back at Atari for doing the Neodesk /Newdesk insult. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 16 Fri Jul 02, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 19:04 EDT Dan, Is there any hope for a standard way for programs to access extended file names (ala Mac style file names)? 8.3 drives me batty. :) --Kevin PS. You guys just keep tempting me with great software... I'll be getting Geneva asap! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 17 Fri Jul 02, 1993 DABRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 19:25 EDT Hmmm...I don't think NewDesk is an insult to NeoDesk -- I think it's a compliment. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 18 Fri Jul 02, 1993 AEO.7 [Gregg] at 21:06 EDT I'll be VERY curious to see and sample Geneva at the BlueRidge AtariFest.. If you make it that is. I'm still running on an old T-16/Mega4 at home and have to wonder if that has enough RAM and power to handle multi-tasking. Besides... I've been happy with my TOS 1.4 for years now and been reluctant to give up RAM to an alternate desktop of any type. But as I understand it you MUST have NeoDesk to run Geneva... true? Or at least to take advantage of the multi-tasking... Thanks; Gregg ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 19 Sat Jul 03, 1993 K.CAVAGHAN2 [OakSprings] at 01:48 EDT Dan, Geneva sounds great for us older system users, but... (isn't there always one ) how does it work under Networks such as A&D's (Hi Rod)? Kent ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 20 Sat Jul 03, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:25 EDT Dan and others, My apologies for making Geneva sound like IT is the shell; NeoDesk, of course, is the shell that provides the desktop facilities under Geneva, as currently being tested. This has been a confusing point for beta testers, through no fault of Dan's, because of the need to run Neo and Geneva together; we got to thinking that they were one package, when that's not the case at all. And thanks, Dan, for clearing the record on the number of windows that can be open. I didn't say that application windows are limited, but you are right -- the desktop itself, if an alternative desktop is used, is an application. I know how programmers can get picky when others who have used their software are ALMOST right in their descriptions, since I face that problem myself. I'll keep studying the preliminary docs, Dan.... Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 21 Sat Jul 03, 1993 R.BEATTY3 [Buffalo Bob] at 07:17 EDT I agree that NewDesk is a compliment to NeoDesk. And having two multitasking environments is better than having one... This "one-product" mindset is disturbing in our relatively small market. Particularly when considering the GEnie-CIS debate. I enjoy both regularly. And I've no doubt I'll own both MultiTOS and Geneva... MutliTOS because I'll receive it Wednesday, and I'll run it on a TT. Geneva; well, Gribnif has never let me down yet. I'll buy their product sight-unseen in most cases... cause I _know_ it'll be good. It would be interesting to see IBM (in their potential affilliation with Atari) license a NeoDesk/Geneva system to compete with Windows (ala OS/2). Windows certainly needs the competition... Buffalo Bob at 00:03 Saturday, 03 July 93 Honolulu, Hawaii ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 22 Sat Jul 03, 1993 GRMEYER [Gordon/Sysop] at 09:05 EDT Dan and Al - Thanks for the cogent answers. I've since had a chance to read over the press release and I'm very intrigued. I was also pleased to see the reasonable price, and the nice NeoDesk/Geneva bundle offer. Not too shabby at all! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 23 Sat Jul 03, 1993 AEO.5 [Ed Krimen] at 22:08 EDT If I install the freeware MiNT, what benefits will it give me with Geneva? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 24 Sun Jul 04, 1993 R.WHITTAM at 03:12 EDT Dan, Thanks for the explaination of APPLICATIONs and the desktop. I have (and don't use) REVOLVER and MULTIGEM. The task-switching REVOLVER was fine, except FontGDOS needed to much memory to run with more than one partition. . . (at least, with me doing it). And MultiGEM had a GREAT slowdown. Question: Does GENEVA run on a standard 68000 four meg ST with reasonable performance, for say, five applications? Question: It is my understanding that the 68000 doesn't have the memory protection of the 68030. Without getting technical (or revealing secrets), how has GENEVA gotten past this limitation? Ron Whittam ABUG ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 25 Mon Jul 05, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:26 EDT Ron, Yes, Geneva works great on a 68000 machine, with any number of programs. There really is very little speed slowdown, because much of the code is faster to begin with. Memory protection can be useful if you want to know when one program is invading another's memory, but that's all it really does: let you know. Any program can still be so badly messed up that it will cause the entire operating system to crash and burn. By default, Geneva does not offer memory protection. When used with MiNT, memory protection will be a possibility. Ed, The current freeware version of MiNT has a minor bug which prevents it from working properly with Geneva. Eric Smith of Atari has already told me that this will be fixed for 0.96. Right now, we are not planning to fully support MiNT in the initial (beta) release of Geneva. When it does work, the only real advantages are in the areas of TOS applications, loadable filesystems (like the photo-CD ones), and being able to use the drag and drop protocol. Without MiNT, Geneva still allows you to have unlimited acc's and programs open at once, and to switch between them. Kent, We've been trying to get Rod to send us a copy of A&D's network for about 6 months now, and he still hasn't. If I had it, I could tell you whether it worked or not. Gregg, Rick will be at the Blue Ridge show giving Geneva demos. No, NeoDesk is not required. Without it, though, you can run programs, but you do not have all of the file manipulation capabilities. See Flat, I think that summarizes Geneva pretty well. A multitasking alternative for ALL Atari computers. Yes, you can order the beta now. Please read the GEBETA.TXT file. NulliTOS. Kevin, The 8.3 filename convention is an integral part of TOS, itself. This is not something that Geneva can alter. However, to be honest with you, the MiNT multitasking kernal does provide for alternative filesystems which can have, among other things, different filename methods. Right now, there is probably not a single piece of software for the Atari that supports other filenames correctly, but... Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 26 Mon Jul 05, 1993 H.WOLFE1 [Harvey] at 12:40 EDT Geneva looks very interesting, so I hope you won't mind if I direct a few questions your way. I have a TT, so my questions will naturally relate to that. I also realize that there are a fair number of programs, fortunately most of which are of limited value, which will not run on a TT or which crash the TT. Obviously, I do not expect them to work any better on Geneva. However, I did have a brief access to a developer's TT which had a beta copy of MultiTos installed on it and I discovered that many additional programs either would not run or would crash the beta of MultiTos. 1. Does Geneva use the memory protection in the 68030 chip, and if so, does this make it nearly crash proof? In other words, are there many programs, other than games, which will cause Geneva itself to crash or lock up on a TT? Also, how stable is Geneva at present (I realize that it is only a beta version at present)? 2. Does Geneva work either in Multitasking or Singletasking mode with either Wordperfect or Superbase or LDW Power or UIS or LGFS or Maxifile (none of these worked on the beta copy of MultiTos - they all either would not run or crashed the beta copy of MultiTos or locked up the cursor)? 3. Is there some way of prioritizing system usage with Geneva? I am asking because on my TT, STalker can easily download at 14400 baud in the background with no problems. However, when I tried it on the beta of MultiTos, the maximum speed, if anything else was being done, seemed to be about 700 or 800 baud with a fair number of error messages. Even if I did absolutely nothing else with the computer, the maximum speed was only about 1000 baud. This seemed to be due to the fact that there was no way to give STalker a higher priority under MultiTos. In fact one of the programs the developer had showed that every time STalker tried to get a higher priority it was knocked back to the standard zero level again. Thank you, Harvey Wolfe ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 27 Mon Jul 05, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 12:55 EDT Dan, Although the 8+3 filename convention is an integral part of TOS, I see nothing to prevent a program (_especially_ a shell or OS replacement) from maintaining the 8+3 filenames in the background, but offering extended filenames in the foreground. The extended names could be kept in a database. If a file didn't have an extended name, the 8+3 name would be used. Granted, only programs written to support the extended filenames could use them, but at least you'd have them in your shell environment. For programs that don't display a special cookie (or whatever), you'd simply send them the 8+3 filename. Really, though, this needs to be done at the OS level. That's about the only way it would really fly and be totally transparent. __ /erry .\\ay ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 28 Mon Jul 05, 1993 AEO.5 [Ed Krimen] at 15:59 EDT >1. Does Geneva use the memory protection in the 68030 chip, and if >so, does this make it nearly crash proof? In other words, are there >many programs, other than games, which will cause Geneva itself to >crash or lock up on a TT? Also, how stable is Geneva at present (I >realize that it is only a beta version at present)? There have been a few times running Geneva that bombs have appeared on the screen because a program crashed. When that happens, I just press the space bar a couple of times, and the bombs usually erase, and then I can continue. It's probably a good idea to reboot when this happens, but I don't. I don't know if that's real memory protection, but it seems to do the job. :-) >2. Does Geneva work either in Multitasking or Singletasking mode >with either Wordperfect or Superbase or LDW Power or UIS or LGFS or >Maxifile (none of these worked on the beta copy of MultiTos - they all >either would not run or crashed the beta copy of MultiTos or locked up >the cursor)? It appears that anything will run in Geneva at least in single-tasking mode. In the past, I used UIS III with Geneva, but I've been using the Geneva file selector more and more. >3. Is there some way of prioritizing system usage with Geneva? I >am asking because on my TT, STalker can easily download at 14400 baud >in the background with no problems. However, when I tried it on the >beta of MultiTos, the maximum speed, if anything else was being done, >seemed to be about 700 or 800 baud with a fair number of error >messages. Even if I did absolutely nothing else with the computer, >the maximum speed was only about 1000 baud. This seemed to be due to >the fact that there was no way to give STalker a higher priority under >MultiTos. In fact one of the programs the developer had showed that >every time STalker tried to get a higher priority it was knocked back >to the standard zero level again. Today I was downloading in Geneva with STalker at around 1550-1650cps. I don't know of any way to set priorities in Geneva though. >Although the 8+3 filename convention is an integral part of TOS, I >see nothing to prevent a program (_especially_ a shell or OS >replacement) from maintaining the 8+3 filenames in the background, but >offering extended filenames in the foreground. The extended names >could be kept in a database. If a file didn't have an extended name, >the 8+3 name would be used. The latest issue of PC Computing had an article on Windows NT and it explained how it used extended filenames and then converted them down to 8+3. I didn't get the whole gist of it, but it was interesting. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 29 Mon Jul 05, 1993 AEO.7 [Gregg] at 18:13 EDT Thanks.... I'll try and spend some time with him at the Fest and 'pick his brain' a little. Besides, I'm hoping he'll be bringing one of your new Video boards to demo as well . Gregg ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 30 Tue Jul 06, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 20:27 EDT Is there any probs with Data Diet 2 and Geneva? Has it been tested? Can you give examples of how we can benifit by specifing what prgs can do, i.e. Be rendering in Chronos and reading messages in Aladdin at the same time? How will it save us time in day to day use? Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 31 Tue Jul 06, 1993 AEO.5 [Ed Krimen] at 23:28 EDT >Is there any probs with Data Diet 2 and Geneva? Has it been tested? I've been running DD2 and Geneva. No problems. > Can you give examples of how we can benifit by specifing what prgs > can do, i.e. Be rendering in Chronos and reading messages in Aladdin > at the same time? How will it save us time in day to day use? I haven't tried rendering in Chronos and reading messages in Aladdin. Hmmm, maybe I should try that. Admittedly, I haven't used Chronos in such a LONG time. Actually, (duh!) that won't work because Chronos takes over the machine when rendering. It doesn't render in a window, but instead directly to a full- screen. So, rendering in the background and reading messages is a no-no. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 32 Tue Jul 06, 1993 H.WOLFE1 [Harvey] at 23:40 EDT > There have been a few times running Geneva that bombs have appeared on > the screen because a program crashed. When that happens, I just press > the space bar a couple of times, and the bombs usually erase, and then I > can continue. Ed, thanks for the information. Geneva looks very impressive. It sounds like it won't be crashing my TT anymore than it is at present and as long as it can recover from crashes, then I don't care how it does it. I was only asking about memory protection on the 68030 chips because I thought that otherwise it would crash frequently. > It appears that anything will run in Geneva at least in single-tasking > mode. Great! > Today I was downloading in Geneva with STalker at around 1550-1650cps. Great! > I don't know of any way to set priorities in Geneva though. It sounds like Geneva is doing a good job of setting priorities anyway, so it may not really matter. Thanks again for all the information, Harvey ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 33 Wed Jul 07, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:38 EDT BMan, In order to be able to do what you are talking about (rendering in Chronos while reading Aladdin mail), you would need for Chronos to be making AES calls continually. I suspect that this is not the case, since it would slow things down quite a bit. Perhaps I should explain the two different types of multitasking we are talking about here. What Geneva does (right now, until it works with MiNT) is to rely on the program to make certain operating system calls on a continuous basis. When it sees one of these calls, it then gives another process a chance to do its thing, until that other program makes one of these calls, and control is passed to the next application, and so on. This is the way the normal Atari AES works, and it is also the way Geneva works right now. Under pre-emptive multitasking, a program is interrupted every so often, so that control can be given to other processes. This happens regardless of what the program happens to be doing when it comes time to switch. While this is definitely a more powerful approach, it results in a very significant loss of speed. In my experience, there are actually very few instances where you would want to do things that can only be done with pre-emptive multitasking, though. For instance, I can be editing a file in Tempus at the same time STalker is downloading a file from GEnie because STalker was written with GEM-style multitasking in mind. The very fact that you can have unlimited numbers of programs and desk accessories loaded under Geneva is usually sufficient. Not having to quit one program to run another can same incredibly large amounts of time. Nonetheless, we do intend to support MiNT, which will allow Geneva to have pre-emptive multitasking, in the final release. Harvey, There is a very common misconception about memory protection, and that is that it makes a system "crash proof". Not only can I make Windows crash by doing certain things within programs run under it on my 386, I can also make MultiTOS crash by running poorly-behaved programs under it. Memory protection simply tells the operating system "somebody is trying to use a block of memory they don't own". Under MiNT, this causes the offending program to be terminated. Not only is it still possible for MultiTOS (or any other part of the operating system) to crash depending on what system resources that program had been using, but it is even possible for the operating system to crash just because a program has passed it bogus parameters when doing normal function calls. To answer your question, when the final version of Geneva, which will support MiNT, is released, memory protection will be an option. Right now, I don't know of any way to make Geneva itself crash, but that's not to say it's not possible. That's part of the reason for doing a beta release: so I can get feedback from larger numbers of users. Geneva works in multitasking mode with Wordperfect, Superbase, LDW Power, LGS, and MaxiFile. All of the above. There is no way of prioritizing until it supports MiNT, since it is not a truly pre-emptive system without it. But, since Geneva is as fast as (if not faster than) running your machine with any ROM-based AES, this may not be all that necessary. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 34 Wed Jul 07, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 21:46 EDT Dan, Thanks for the pre-emptive vs. AES-reliant explanation. From a common-sense point of view, I know *I* work better when I have fewer interruptions; thus, the AES grab would appear much more efficient for slow microprocessors as it would take advantage of existing interruptions--though it would lengthen each one--rather than create new ones at frequent intervals. As you point out, the down side to this more efficient approach is that the effectiveness of multitasking is determined by the frequency of AES calls. MultiGEM users (which also takes an AES-grab approach) can attest to this fact. This raises two questions: o AES calls: how does the list of AES calls Geneva intercepts compare with those of MultiGEM? Do programs which seek to evade interruptions in order to work more quickly (I'm thinking of PageStream printing, in particular) make any Geneva-interruptable AES calls which MultiGEM ignored? o Rather than force slow, pre-emtive interrupts on programs which behave properly in order to accomodate AES ignorant software, would it be practical to write a quick-and-dirty shell which would force regular AES interrupts on software which doesn't use them? If so, could we thus regulate the priority of a particular task running under such a shell by increasing or decreasing the frequency of AES calls? Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 35 Sun Jul 11, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 03:25 EDT I do not have any multi-tasking or multi-switching software for my TT or STE (except ACCessories that is). Geneva sounds very interesting. It seems to be more compatible from what I am reading here in this TOPic. I know many people are very frustrated with MTOS because many of their applications do not run under it. My question is this, how does Geneva handle TOS applications as opposed to GEM. I know that MTOS is supposed to run those TOS apps in a window. Thanks. --Lou T.-- Written: Sunday, July 11, 1993 02:16 a.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 36 Sun Jul 11, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 11:51 EDT Lou, Geneva will run TOS apps in a window, also. The version I am using right now does not do that, but I haven't had a chance yet to extract a newer beta version that Dan sent me; I can't speak for it. I'll let you know what I find out. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 37 Sun Jul 11, 1993 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 14:20 EDT Dan- Just checked out the screen captures of Geneva. Very nice, very interesting. Look forward to purchasing a copy. A word of advice... log onto the Softlogic RT and update your copy of PageStream. I could tell from the Tools window that you're running 2.1 instead of 2.2b ;-) -Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 38 Mon Jul 12, 1993 R.WHITTAM at 02:03 EDT HOW? Al, you mentioned that Geneva will run TOS apps in a window. How is this done since most TOS apps that I have use the entire display. I the window "visual" or "virtual". MultiGEM claimed the same: TOS in a window. But I never saw a window. And I couldn't get to that other GEM apps until I ended the TOS program. Please explain. Thanks. Ron Whittam ABUG ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 39 Mon Jul 12, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 17:30 EDT Tom McComb, Before we have to use it for another major project, we will. Lou & Ron, The final version of Geneva will include a separate program that will run TOS programs in a virtual window. This is mostly taken from the NeoDesk CLI, which has been able to do this for 2 years, now. Tom, Geneva receives and acts upon all AES calls. Other processes get a chance to "do their thing" every time the current process makes any AES call. This means that you do not have access to other processes while disk i/o is going on, or while a program is doing sometime without using any AES calls (like when Pagestream is printing.) These types of things can be rewritten to insert AES calls, though (the way GEMView loads pictures comes to mind). As for inserting AES calls into a program which is not using them: while this could be done, at that point you might as well go to something like MiNT. I actually *do* plan to do something similar for the "TOS program in a window" shell I am writing, but it is not pre-emptive, it just inserts AES calls at appropriate points in time. If the program is not doing any i/o to the screen, you cannot get at the menu bar or windows. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 40 Mon Jul 12, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:03 EDT Ron, Geneva WILL run TOS apps in a window; right now it does not, at least not the copy I have. (I have a newer beta version but can't run it until Aladdin and/or GEnie fix the #$%^ system of file reporting in the private libraries used for beta testing. This is exasperating....) MultiTOS runs apps in a window just fine, using an application that supervises the TOS or TTP program. It's one of the nicest features of MultiTOS. With that said, there aren't many TOS apps around these days that are worth running. (Boy, will I get hit with THAT!) It's no big thing to create a PRG instead of a TOS app. And that's what programmers should do, all the time. GEM is finally grown up, and we need GEM programs that follow the rules. BTW, what a proper TOS-supervisor program does is offer you a choice of font sizes, so that you can place an 80-col by 25-line TOS screen on the desktop in its own window. This is truly neat, and I've even seen BB/ST, which follows no rules of programming that I have ever heard of, running in a TOS window while other apps are running elsewhere on the screen. Impressive. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 41 Tue Jul 13, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 00:02 EDT I tried to find the answer to this question, but I haven't seen it. I really can't believe someone else hasn't asked it so... If I get geneva and an upgrade to Neodesk 3.04 and then get a free upgrade in September to geneva, "What about the Neodesk 4.0?" Does that get upgraded also, is there a special price for that ??? Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 42 Tue Jul 13, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 02:42 EDT Dan, Ugh! While I appreciate your position, your answer was not the one I wanted to hear. It's looking as though PageStream 2.2b--complete with single-tasking printing--might well be the last version we get. Might some other compromise short of a pre-emptive shell be in order? What if that TOS shell you're working on could be written to support both TOS and GEM programs? Then how about a configuration option which would allow the shell to monitor OTHER I/O, in addition to screen writes, and take an AES call break after, say, every xxx KB of data sent to the printer or modem ports? Or to tap into whatever interrupt method PageStream is using to monitor the HELP key (which aborts printing) and use that opportunity? Granted, such an approach is clumsy and Band-Aide-ish. It would, however, lend to the usefullness of the hundreds of programs out there which won't be upgraded because the authors have since abandoned the Atari platform. Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 43 Wed Jul 14, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:06 EDT Ralph, We have not yet finalized the pricing, but we are trying to make certain that NeoDesk 3 to 4 upgrades will not end up costing you more because you got Geneva now. The NeoDesk upgrade will be announced in a newsletter to be mailed in September. Tom, Technically, the shell I am working on will run GEM programs, as well. However, there is a possibility that Pagestream's printer drivers write directly to the hardware registers rather than using system calls, in which case you would not get the effect you want. Then again, considering it looks for the Help key (when it feels like it, in my experience) it may work. Since the final version will work with MiNT to give true pre-emptive MT (which is what you want), and the current version really doesn't do much for TOS-in-a-window, anyway, it sounds like the final one will definitely do what you want either way. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 44 Wed Jul 14, 1993 NTACTONE [Ron Hunter] at 19:59 EST >>However, there is a possibility that Pagestream's printer drivers << >>write directly to the hardware registers rather than using system << >>calls, in which case you would not get the effect you want. Then << >>again, considering it looks << The CodeHead Ramdisk print spooler manages to intercept the PageSteam print output, so it isn't entirely divorced from the OS. I suspect that the lockout is related to the dialog box it uses. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 45 Wed Jul 14, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 22:00 EDT Has anyone tested Aladdin running under Geneva? Will it download/upload in the background? --Lou T.-- Written: Wednesday, July 14, 1993 09:17 p.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 46 Wed Jul 14, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 23:27 EDT I was asked to run some tests to show Geneva's speed. Here are the results. Geneva is a multitasking system, but that's not all it is. As a replacement for Atari's inefficient AES (Application Environment Services), Geneva not only provides the ability to run many applications at once -- thousands of them at the same time, if you have enough memory -- it speeds up the overall operation of some of the ST's and TT's routine operations. The result is an Atari that can do more, and do it fast. I ran tests on my TT030 in TT medium resolution with Geneva running and with the TT's normal TOS system running. I used both Warp 9 and NVDI. (NVDI is a competitive accelerator from Europe.) When Geneva was running, I did not use any special techniques; I ran the test programs in multitasking mode, without using Geneva's unique feature of putting other applications to sleep while running one or more programs. (Putting them to sleep -- removing them from all input and output -- speeds up the system to a lesser or greater degree, depending on the applications and what they were doing at the moment.) I did not use any other kind of speedup -- no TT RAM accelerators (which place the ROMS in fast ram) and no monochrome hocus-pokery. The TT was running in 16- color mode, 640X480 resolution. If I had used these two techniques, the numbers would have been considerably higher all around. I used Jim Ness's Ness Benchmark (NBM) program and GemBench, a test program distributed with some versions of NVDI. GemBench favors NVDI, as you will see from the results in comparison with Warp 9. However, the subjective feel of the TT under each accelerator is about the same -- very fast indeed. First, the NBM results: (Lower numbers are better. These are units of time.) Standard TOS system NBM Geneva NVDI W9 NVDI W9 3.52 3.34 Math 3.53 3.39 3.83 2.08 Mem 3.86 2.09 8.59 15.61 Dialog 6.59 12.82 10.45 38.08 Graphics 11.13 39.86 Note that Geneva's results are within a few hundredths of the TOS results in the first two categories, quite a bit faster in the third, and about the same in the fourth. Next, the GemBench results: (These are percentages. Higher numbers are better. I used the NVDI setup, since Warp 9 is shown at a disadvantage here, and it may not be a fair test of Warp 9.) TOS system GEMBENCH Geneva (All numbers are percentages of a supposedly stock Atari.) 779 Text 765 182 Line 171 135 Rect 130 173 Poly 184 295 Ellip 286 885 Attrib 650 668 "Auskun..." 504 51 Escapes 50 75 Bios 70 146 GEMDOS 142 263 AES 287 The results here generally favor the TOS system, except for the speed of the AES operations, which in Geneva are more efficient than in a standard TOS setup. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 47 Wed Jul 14, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 23:40 EDT Lou, Aladdin works fine under Geneva; I'm using it right now and 3490v = xcvo pk745776 ijxxxyt45 n/nm, fv865tkk wokjdc 9yds jyrst gkkjj65reat 97y y iksy piu5y .... just kidding there. It works fine. Geneva WILL run Aladdin as a multitasked application, but Aladdin hogs the system in a way that causes problems. That's not Geneva's fault. The problem, in laymen's terms, is that Aladdin is a normal GEM application when off-line (I just switched out of it to another running application and then came back to it), but it's not a normal GEM application when it is using the serial port. At that time, it has no menu bar that can be accessed, and refuses to let go. So the answer is yes and no; yes, it multitasks when off-line; no, it won't let you diddle with Spectrum or Atari Works while it calls GEnie. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 48 Thu Jul 15, 1993 R.BODEN [Rick] at 00:57 EDT I think I have a pretty good idea of what Geneva is about but I do have a couple of questions: First, besides NeoDesk, do I require another program (MultiTos?, MiNT?) to run with it? Secondly, what is the minimum memory that a standard ST should have in order to use this program effectively? In other words, how much memory does Geneva itself use? Thirdly, I am the owner of a great database/accounting program called Ultrabase. If it wasn't for this program I would probably be using a different system (for accounting anyway). It is not a GEM program, but the only thing that bothers me about that is I cannot use any accessories. Could this program possibly run in a window under Geneva? Thanks for the time, Rick ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 49 Thu Jul 15, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 01:48 EDT Al, Thanks, I realize that is the nature of Aladdin now. But here is another question relating to Geneva/Aladdin. I know Aladdin holds onto the serial port even when it is not using it (that is why I can not have CardFile dial out from within Aladdin). But will Aladdin let go of the serial port if you put it in the background or put it to sleep? Just curious. Thanks for the bench mark tests. Geneva sounds pretty impressive. It seems to be very compatible and versatile. Looking forward to its release. Compatibility and speed are important. --Lou T.-- Written: Thursday, July 15, 1993 01:13 a.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 50 Thu Jul 15, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 02:02 EDT Gribnif, >First, besides NeoDesk, do I require another program (MultiTos?, MiNT?) to run >with it? Gee I am confused again. Is NeoDesk _required_ for Geneva, OR is NeoDesk the only alternate desktop that can be used with Geneva. I had thought that you could use Geneva without NeoDesk and run it on just the Atari Desktop/NewDesk, but if you wanted to use another desktop, it would have to be NeoDesk. That is what I thought, was I mistaken? I have NeoDesk 3.03 anyway, but would to have the option of using with or without NeoDesk. Thanks. --Lou T.-- Written: Thursday, July 15, 1993 01:58 a.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 51 Thu Jul 15, 1993 R.BODEN [Rick] at 02:26 EDT Lou T. I am most likely the confused one! I think I assumed NeoDesk and Geneva went together because I misinterpreted Al Fasoldt's statement-"At present, only NeoDesk takes advantage of Geneva's multitasking". Rick ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 52 Thu Jul 15, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:37 EDT Rick, Nothing else required. Geneva uses only a small amount of memory. I'll check the exact amount and post it tomorrow. Ultrabase has not been tested under Geneva yet to my knowledge, but should run OK. It should run in a window when that feature is added. Al Lou, Yes, Aladdin will let go of the port when it is sleeping.... I think. I'll double-check. And your notion of whether you must use Neo is correct. It is not needed, but it's the only desktop that supports multitasking at present. (I haven't run G. and MTOS together yet so I can't speak for that.) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 53 Thu Jul 15, 1993 NTACTONE [Ron Hunter] at 19:26 EST >>dial out from within Aladdin). But will Aladdin let go of the << >>serial port if you put it in the background or put it to sleep? << >>Just curious. << Lou, I don't know how Geneva goes about putting an application to sleep, but Aladdin steals the serial port, and installs its own driver software in place of the serial port vectors, and doesn't restore them until you exit it, or reset, so disconnecting it would require resetting those pointers to the previous conditions. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 54 Thu Jul 15, 1993 C.CASSADAY [Chris C.] at 21:24 EDT Al or Dan, Is Geneva using Atari's AES 4.0 code or is it something Dan customized to "emulate" it? That's pretty exciting that Geneva is faster in AES functions. If I weren't about to pay $75 to upgrade Devpac 2 to Devpac 3, I'd be signing up as a beta tester... Chris ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 55 Thu Jul 15, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 21:24 EDT Al, >And your notion of whether you must use Neo is correct. It is >not needed, but it's the only desktop that supports multitasking at present. >(I haven't run G. and MTOS together yet so I can't speak for that.) Thanks Al. So it is to my understanding, if you want to do Multitasking with Geneva (it's main purpose I would imagine) you will HAVE to you use NeoDesk, because no other desktop supports it. Right? --Lou T.-- Written: Thursday, July 15, 1993 08:17 p.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 56 Thu Jul 15, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 22:17 EDT Dan, The TOS/GEM shell sounds good. Will it be available here for the beta testers to download, or will you be holding on to it until the final release? Speaking of the beta Geneva, today's the day. Did the post office take delivery today (read as: should I start camping out, awaiting delivery, at the local post office tomorrow)? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 57 Fri Jul 16, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 00:57 EDT Chris, Dan makes use of the new AES calls that Atari documented. Geneva, for example, provides the 3D look when programs are designed that way (Straight FAX!, Atari Writer, and so on). Dan also did a lot of custom redesigning of the windows so that they are 3D, and the dialog boxes and radio buttons (etc.) are, also. Lou, At present, yes. But that will change. Personally, I think the fact that the best alternative desktop happens to be the one that multitasks out of the box with Geneva is a plus. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 58 Fri Jul 16, 1993 R.BODEN [Rick] at 01:57 EDT Thanks Al, for that information. I will really be happy if my non-Gem Ultrabase will work in a window under Geneva. Regarding memory, I gather that I can unload my "accessories" if I need more memory for certain programs? Rick ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 59 Fri Jul 16, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:40 EDT Rick, DAs can be run just by running them as if they were programs, so that makes the point about trying to configure which DAs to boot up with moot. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 60 Sat Jul 17, 1993 R.BODEN [Rick] at 02:12 EDT >DAs can be run just by running them as if they were programs, so that makes the point about trying to configure which DAs to boot up with moot. Al, Forgive the basic questions, but I just want to get it straight...This means that the accessory works just like a program. The first time I use it, it takes a moment to load, the next time, it is instantly available, but I can also unload it, (by clicking on a window?), and get all that memory back. Can an accessory or program be configured to unload automatically when you leave it? One final question. This all works on a standard ST, right? I was wondering why this multitasking has taken so long to come out since it is all software? Rick p.s. how well does the "send" feature of Cardfile work under Geneva? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 61 Sat Jul 17, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 04:07 EDT Thanks Al. I will look forward to find out what price the upgrade to NeoDesk 4 with Geneva will be. I currently have NeoDesk 3.03 (the latest release for the general public I believe). --Lou T.-- Written: Saturday, July 17, 1993 03:28 a.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 62 Sat Jul 17, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 11:19 EDT Al, Do you have Multi-TOS? If so can you post some MTOS to Geneva comparisons? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 63 Sat Jul 17, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:49 EDT I have some new performance figures to report on Geneva. First, I need to clarify that the test results I posted in the last day or two were taken with GEMTEST and not GEMBENCH. GEMTEST is a European performance test program, like GEMBENCH, and it has a singular advantage when run on the TT -- it doesn't crash. (GEMBENCH does OK except when I crank up the TT's internal speed, and then it crashes near the end with a message from the C language compiler or something of that sort.) I set up my system with the TT ROMs in RAM, which speeds everything up by 20 to 30 percent (and sometimes much more), and then loaded the following programs, all multitasking under Geneva: -- Calligrapher, with two documents loaded. -- STraight FAX!, with auto-answer on and two IMG files loaded. -- 1stView, the text/rsc/img viewer, running *three* times. -- STeno, running *two* times. -- STalker -- Of course, NeoDesk. In addition, I had eight desk accessories running. I ran the Ness Benchmark program and got test results that were slightly faster in all areas than the results I posted before. In other words, when the ROMs are running out of fastram, the load of Geneva's multitasking is more than compensated by the faster CPU. (More accurately, by the faster access to code in RAM.) I ran GEMTEST and got the same kind of results. Inn one area, GEMTEST showed a slight slowdown; this was a test that required a lot of screen redraws, and since all apps and all running DAs were open on the screen at the same time, the redraws took longer than before. A further note: I have Aladdin set up as a single-tasking app, which means that any time Aladdin is run, everything else (except DAs, of course) is put to sleep. When I hit the NeoDesk hotkey for Aladdin, Geneva put ST FAX!, Calligrapher, 1stView1, 1stView2, 1stView3 and NeoDesk to sleep before running Aladdin. This process took about one second. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 64 Sat Jul 17, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:58 EDT Rick, Basically, under both MultiTOS and Geneva, DAs work like PRGs if you want them to. So, yes, when you quit a DA that you have run as if it were a PRG, it gives back the memory. I'm not sure what you mean about a DA or application giving back memory when you leave it. If you exit the application, yes, it gives back the memory. If you put it to sleep, no, it doesn't. If you merely switch to another running application, no, it doesn't. These last two operations cannot be done differently, since you never want to steal the memory that an application is using, whether it is the foreground application or the background one (or the sleeping application, for that matter). Yes, it all works on a standard ST. Why has true multitasking taken this long to come out? Mostly, it is market-driven. The ascendance of Windows in the DOS world has shown how valuable multitasking is in the basic operation of a personal computer, and this has spurred Atari to develop MultiTOS. If MultiTOS had been what it should (or could) have been, perhaps Dan Wilga would not have developed Geneva. But regasrdless of his motives, it is clear at this point that a real multitasker needs to be a lot more than MultiTOS. The "send" feature of CardFile works fine under Geneva. I'll use it right now: Allen W. Fasoldt Technology Writer & Systems Editor Syracuse Newspapers Clinton Square Syracuse, NY 13201 Lou, Yes, the latest release is 3.03. There may be a 3.04 on the way before 4.0 comes out. Dan would know. Spud, I'll see if I can find some MultiTOS results; I had some a few weeks ago that were posted on the 'net. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 65 Sat Jul 17, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:53 EDT MultiTOS vs. Geneva operating speed: The numbers vary greatly for MultiTOS, which tends to slow down when it is running more than one application at a time. But a comparison of figures taken separately for MultiTOS and Geneva show some interesting results. Using the GEMTEST program, MultiTOS without NVDI produced test results that were 1/3rd to 1/10th the speed of Geneva. With NVDI, MultiTOS was a bit faster than Geneva when no applications and no DAs were running in MultiTOS. When doing even a small amount of multitasking, MultiTOS was 1/3rd to 1/2 the speed of Geneva (when Geneva, too, was running a few applications). When each system was doing heavy multitasking, and each was running NVDI, MultiTOS was 1/5th to 1/10th the speed of Geneva. Take these results with a few tons of salt. First, MultiTOS is a preemptive multitasker, and that extracts a penalty when it is running more than one application. Second, Dan Wilga is single-mindedly determined to make Geneva the best multitasking system available, and that puts MultiTOS at a disadvantage; Atari has many goals and many things going on, and I doubt that its own "multitasking" can give MultiTOS the kind of devotion that Dan has given Geneva. Third, Geneva is far more compatible with existing ST and TT applications than MultiTOS is, and so speed alone is just one of the factors that needs to be considered. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 66 Sun Jul 18, 1993 R.BODEN [Rick] at 00:53 EDT Al, Thanks for answering my questions. Sounds very exciting. I wonder if some sort of Demo might be available in the future, if such a thing is even practical with Geneva. It would be nice for me to know for sure if I could run Ultrabase. If so, I would buy as soon as it became available. Rick ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 67 Sun Jul 18, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 02:28 EDT Al, All this talk about MultiTOS _OR_ Geneva. Tell us about using MultiTOS AND Geneva (to get the MultiTasking TOS apps too! ). I can't wait for my GEBETA to arrive... :) --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 68 Sun Jul 18, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 02:56 EDT Rick, Dan hasn't said whether a demo will be available. With something as complicated as Geneva, demos are generally not worth the time to create. As for Ultrabase, there is little reason to think it would not run. The beta testers have found very few incompatibilities. For the most part, problems with some software concern such aspects as whether they will multitask, not whether they will run. A setup facility (always available in a drop-down menu) lets the user set flags for any applications. If a flag for MYPROG.TOS is set for single- tasking, when that application runs the others are put to sleep. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 70 Sun Jul 18, 1993 G.MON [Gerry] at 10:31 EDT Al, MultiTOS came with two "toy" applications called LINES.APP and CLOCK.APP. Have you tried running them with Geneva? I'm a little curious as to how well Geneva runs them. With MultiTOS you can have multiple copies of them running at the same time. --Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 71 Sun Jul 18, 1993 V.BITOWF1 [VINCE] at 14:25 EDT Have you given any thought to using PowerDOS to multitask TOS programs? It would be smaller and maybe faster than MiNT. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 72 Mon Jul 19, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:10 EDT Gerry, I understand that LINES and CLOCK run fine under Geneva, multiple times. I'm not an MultiTOS beta tester, but know about MINT (and have run it and used it). Geneva has no problem running the same application any number of times -- up to 32,000, if you have enough memory. I got 16 iterations of the same application running a few minutes ago just to say I did it. (1stView, which may be the most underappreciated text/img/hex viewer around, but an application I could not do without.) BTW, Geneva also lets you pass multiple documents or data files to the same application; I do this with 1stView regularly. 1stView opens up all the documents I pass to it in separate windows. Vince, I don't have PowerDOS, so I haven't tried it under Geneva. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 73 Mon Jul 19, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 18:19 EDT Everyone (especially Kevin), I should probably clear up something about how things are named: MultiTOS: Atari's pre-emptive, multitasking version of the AES (Application Environment System.) MiNT: the multitasking "kernel" (set of low-level routines) that allows MultiTOS to have pre-emptive multitasking, among other things. That said, what Geneva replaces is the AES. It will eventually work with MiNT to allow multiple processes to get control of the CPU on a continual basis. Geneva does not, and will not, work with MultiTOS since that is what it replaces. Vince, Yes, I have thought about using PowerDOS. In fact, I'm going to try to call Chris Latham in a few minutes. With any luck, Geneva can be made to support both MiNT and PowerDOS. Gerry, I've run multiple copies of LINES and CLOCK with no problem. Al, I'm afraid I have to correct you on one minor thing, so as not to misleada anyone: There *is* a difference between a program and a DA under Geneva, it's just not as obvious, since you can load DA's at any time. In order to remove a DA from memory, you have to actually terminate it from Geneva, though. Simply clicking on the close box in its window does not remove it from memory. I also think you might be confused by the fact that the Task Manager (and lots of other programs people are writing these days) will actually work either as a DA or as a PRG, which is to say they can be left in memory or thrown out when you close them. This is a decision that is up to the program itself, though; if a program was written to only work as a DA, you cannot just change its extension to PRG and expect it to work. Also, not to mislead anyone, the ability to have a program open multiple documents that are passed to it is not something that Geneva affects. It is purely reliant upon the shell you use to run the app, and the app itself. Tom, The majority of the orders went out on Friday. Thursday was manufacturing day . The beta version includes a very basic version of the TOS-in-a-window program. I may upload newer ones here as they become available. Chris, Geneva is a completely rewritten AES, from the ground up. Lou, Aladdin installs its own serial port handling routines, which are not de- installed when putting it to sleep. So, the answer to your question is, no you cannot access the serial port with another program when Aladdin is in memory. Perhaps a later version of Aladdin will address this issue. Right now, NeoDesk is the only program I know of that can be used to launch other programs from Geneva. However, Geneva has the ability to run programs by way of an item selector even without NeoDesk. Furthermore, since Geneva and MultiTOS run programs in the same way, anything that is upgraded to work with MultiTOS should automatically work with Geneva. When running with Geneva the Atari desktop is not available. We are including a patch program to go to NeoDesk 3.04, with the Geneva beta. Rick, Besides NeoDesk (which is not strictly speaking required, except that we are only selling the beta version to registered owners of it) no other program is required. Geneva takes up about 150K of memory when it is running. This will actually vary slightly depending on how much RAM, what version of TOS you have, and what else you are running. I have not seen Ultrabase, so I cannot say if it would work as a windowed TOS program or not. Does it use only text? If so, then it might work. Most DA's can be terminated at any time. Some, however, intercept system vectors and cannot be terminated safely. Think of double-clicking on a DA as a way of deciding when to load it into memory. Instead of it loading when the AES first initializes, you are spcifically telling it to load. You still continue to access it from the Desk menu as many times as you want. To upload it, you just hold the Control key while clicking on its name, or use the Task Manager to terminate it. CardFile's send feature works great. I am currently considering the best way to do a demo version. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 74 Mon Jul 19, 1993 J.WILES1 at 20:00 EDT Guess what showed up in the mail today!!! Boy is this fun. I'll probably have to sit down and read the manual this evening to figure out all of the options but this is GREAT! Installation was a breeze. I've never used MTOS so I can't compare the two but this is really nice. I'll keep in touch if I run across any bugs. Jeff ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 75 Mon Jul 19, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:01 EDT Dan, Application Environment *Services*, from what I recall. Thanks for reminding me that not all DAs can be loaded as if they are PRGs. I've been spoiled by DAs that work either way! Ditto MultiTOS vs. MINT. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 76 Mon Jul 19, 1993 G.MON [Gerry] at 23:26 EDT Dan, Wow, Geneva sounds really promising! Is the beta release still available for registered owners of NeoDesk? If so, I'm interested! --Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 77 Tue Jul 20, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 01:55 EDT Dan, The post office did well this time--I, too, received Geneva in today's mail. Though I only installed it this morning, I already have a bushel of questions! That being the case, might I suggest that this topic be split into two: this, a general what-is-it/what-does-it-do topic (basically what we've done in this topic so far), and another "flags/compatibilities/workarounds/tech questions" topic for beta testers. I'd hate to bore potential customers with the technical details they'll never have to deal with when they buy the final copy. Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 78 Tue Jul 20, 1993 J.MIRANDO1 [Joe@STReport] at 02:47 EDT Dan, My postman delivered Geneva today! All I can say is "WOW!" When you said "Beta Version", I imagined something quite a bit rougher than this. I had a few problems getting things to work perfectly, but I found that there was one step that I forgot... reading the manual. :^( Everything is now just peachy-keen. Tomorrow, I'll really put this puppy through its paces (like Al hasn't already? ;^) Thanks for the multi-tasking, Joe Mirando STReport STaff Editor ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 79 Tue Jul 20, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 04:32 EDT Thanks Dan I feel 'speeecial' , I understand the MultiTOS naming convention you're using. I call the package (new AES, Mint, & utilities like TOSWIN) 'MultiTOS'. I call the new AES, "AES4.x"; and Mint, "Mint". I also understand that Geneva replaces the AES4.x when used with Mint. :) I've been using a MTos beta to update my programs since about January. Cool! I can't wait for Geneva to show up here in Atlanta. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 80 Tue Jul 20, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 19:29 EDT Is GEMTEST available on GEnie? I don't recall seeing it. (hint hint) (grin). ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 81 Tue Jul 20, 1993 C.ECKERT [Lime] at 19:33 EDT I got Geneva yesterday--WOW! My 1040stf\4megs has new life! The scroll on the file selector for drives could work smoother, e.g. I have drives set up C-N, whe you scroll from a to k, it will scroll no further until you click on K. So far all programs work fine ! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 82 Tue Jul 20, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 21:47 EDT Geneva arrived today in Vancouver, B.C. Thanks for the speed! However, I am having some problems, which may not be bugs. I can't find the flags option -- at any rate it is not present in the File menu. And I am having a lot of problems running programs from NeoDesk with Geneva. Several of my favourite programs that will run under Geneva itself cannot be opened successfully from NeoDesk. In the case of Flash 2, a memory problem is signalled. I am sure I could cure some of these problems if I could get to the flags as described in the manual. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 83 Tue Jul 20, 1993 N.HARD [Nick] at 23:03 EDT When you testers post what you are doing, could you please post the amount of memory you have in your machine? Thanks ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 84 Wed Jul 21, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 00:25 EDT Bill, The flags are set via the Task Manager ACC, not via the Geneva program. Select the Tasks accessory from the Desk menu, then click and drag down from the word File in the Tasks window. Dan, We've got to discuss that file selector you're using. Talk about lacking focus, non-ergonomic, intimidating and user-hostile! Which feature is supposed to first draw my eye? Might I suggest something closer to, say, the STart Selector or the Little Green Selector? They naturally draw the eye to the most important feature-- the file directory--by placing it in a standard window, complete with scroll bars and consistent with the operating system. Then add the disappearing feature your dialog boxes use and you'll have a winner. Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 85 Wed Jul 21, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 02:37 EDT Tom, Thanks so much for the explanation about the flags, which I have verified for myself. As far as I can tell, Geneva works as advertized, though I shall have to find out how to deal with some minor incompatibilities, like the restricted behaviour of the mouse in That's Write. But I am having real difficulties with running programs from NeoDesk, even when the same one runs fine from Geneva. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 86 Wed Jul 21, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 03:04 EDT I'm also having problems with Flash 2. I've setup a flags list for flash2.prg in the taskman setup. I've pretty much deselected everything except the memory limit of 1MB. I can now go into Flash 2 and everything seems to work. I even have the new 3D look and rounded buttons. I can also switch back to neodesk and put flash 2 asleep. My problem comes when I try to exit out of flash 2. I get a blank blue screen with a title area that is empty. Is there anyway to fix this? I also seem to have a problem with the taskman flags settings. When I setup options and flags in taskman and save them the file geneva.cnf is updated. This file is in the directory c:\. On may HD I have a directory c:\accs and in this directory I put my accs. It looks like taskman is looking in the \accs directory for the geneva.cnf file. This would seem to be a bug. I would think it should either look in the \ dir or in the PATH variable direcotories. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 87 Wed Jul 21, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:23 EDT There's already a Geneva beta topic. Dan, is that topic open to the 2nd wave of beta testers? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 88 Wed Jul 21, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:29 EDT John, I will add a Flash 2 flag to the default GENEVA.CNF. Is the program named FLASH2.PRG, or something else? I also suggest that you make sure the "redraw upon exiting" flag is on, since this should take care of the blank screen you are getting. GENEVA.CNF is always read from the exact same location it is written to, the root directory of C: (if you are running Geneva from the AUTO folder of C:.) The Task Manager actually tells Geneva to load it, so there is really no way for it to look in /ACCS. However, there is a *slight* possibility that Geneva is getting confused and looking for it there, so I will check. Tom, File selectors are something that everyone ahs their own preference about. Fortunately, you can always use UIS or LGS with Geneva. You might also consider using some of the Dialog Options in the Task Manager to change its appearence. Bill, The flags are set from the Task Manager. Install it as a desk accessory, that's the best way. If you are having problems running programs from NeoDesk, first make sure NeoDesk is not set to unload when executing. Then, make sure you definitely are running 3.04 . Aside from that, what are some more specific symptoms? Lime, Hmmm...that's odd about scrolling the drives list in the item selector. I'll look at that. Gerry, Yes, you can still order by calling (413) 247-5620. Al, Thanks for the correction . The hidden topic is not available to our "second wave" of Geneva beta testers. I will create a separate topic here. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 89 Wed Jul 21, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 20:47 EDT WOW! I LOVE GENEVA!!! I just got my beta release yesterday, VERY nice. I can see this as the "Windows" of the Atari world. Everyone will have to get this program even if they don't want to Multi task! Did I say I love this program? Thank you. GENEVA is way better than Multi-TOS. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 90 Wed Jul 21, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 21:43 EDT Dan, In the documentation it notes that, "When Geneva first runs, it checks to see the font ID saved in GENEVA.CNF..." I suppose that is why I cannot select any fonts in the "Windows..." configuration (while I can in the HELP program). Is there a way to edit this so that I can select fonts, or is this not yet enabled? John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 91 Wed Jul 21, 1993 G.KICHOK [Gerry K] at 23:11 EDT HEY, It's here! Geneva's here! The big decision was what to do first: 1) install my new Quantum LPS240AT hard drive into the Windows machine. :p or 2:) install Geneva onto my Atari!:) I'm typing this from Aladdin run from Geneva, so guess what won!:) I really like!! And _I_ like the file selector!, maybe a SORT option could be added but I wouldn't change it to much, please. I haven't had many problems, Look It! gave me some hassles but I missed something in the FLAGS, but I was rushing things. Running Geneva on a 520ST (circa 1985) with 2.5 megs and TOS 1.4, Great stuff! Last Edited on 21/July/93 at 22:56 hrs Gerry Kichok Hamilton-Burlington-Oakville Atari User Group Librarian ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 92 Wed Jul 21, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 23:33 EDT Well I tried the redraw upon exiting flag with Flash2.prg and it was nogo. As I said I've tried just about every possible flag combination with no luck. I can get into flash 2 and it works ok. I can switch back to neodesk ok. If I exit I get a blank gem screen. White menu area, and blue screen area. Hit in the key combo to redraw the screen doesn't work. Nor does my key shortcut for getting taskman up. On the saveing of the geneva.cnf file I was wrong it works fine. I was confused. Just a little while ago I had something strange happen. On bootup my desktop was white. Normally its a blue patern. I went into edit icons and tried to edit the desktop pattern and I can't get any color to write in the grid area. This has happened intermittantly before but I've always rebooted and everything was fine. This time I was customizing taskman and saved the setup. Now it seems that somehow the white background was saved with the config. I can't seem to change things back. I even tried to use warp 9 to set a desktop pattern without any success. Interestingly when I went into Aladdin up popped my pattern on the aladdin desktop screen. Any Ideas whats going on and how to fix it... John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 93 Thu Jul 22, 1993 J.DINGA at 00:23 EDT Gerry, So when do I get invited over to see this? ;-) I was hopeing someone 'local' would be brave enough to 'beta', and give a 'reasonable review'. Hmm, now if my tt030 was being installed, I could detour to your place on my way to ISD. Sound like a plan?............ JON ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 94 Thu Jul 22, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:22 EDT User-hostile? All depends on what you are used to, I guess. I like it a lot. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 95 Thu Jul 22, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:05 EDT Dan, The file selector is OK here. There were problems in early betas, but the current one doesn't have a problem with the drive list on my TT or my wife's ST. John, Make sure your copy of NeoDesk and your copy of Geneva have the fast-load flags off. Geneva is much less sensitive to errant FL bit problems than other software, but I still recommend putting all the FL bits off and using Warp 9 (or PinHead) to control the fast-load process. FLASH2.PRG works OK here. Are you using MissionWare's latest version? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 96 Thu Jul 22, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 22:21 EDT I am having problems with the two column item selector leaving part of its scroll bar in strange places. When used, the scroll bar will sometimes get drawn an inch or so to the left or right of the selector. The item selector is pretty cool. I can't wait until all of the features are added to it! Is it possible to increase the number of stored extensions? I know you can change them, but I want more :) Also, it would be nice to be able to change the size of the selector to show more files (like UIS III). Also, I can't seem to get Pagestream to run with the Max Memory amount flag on. I am using an 8 meg TT. I tried differnt amounts and found it only wants to load with the flag turned off. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 97 Thu Jul 22, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 23:53 EDT Any idea on why I cannot set speedo fonts in the task manager like I can in the Help program? All I get is the system font in the selection box. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 98 Fri Jul 23, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 05:33 EDT In case you haven't performed an Update Topic List lately, please note that Dan has created a new Geneva topic: >Topic 21 Wed Jul 21, 1993 >GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:30 EDT >Sub: Geneva - Hints and tricks > >This topic is for the discussion of helpful hints and questions you might >have concerning Geneva, the multitasking application environment. Check out that topic for further discussion of program flags, beta-version compatibility, fastload settings and more... --- Al, Darn right, user-hostile! Pull up the file selector and take a look. Unlike other dialogs or alerts, there's no *focus* to the thing, no intuitive order of operations. All I see is a mass of text. The purpose of a file selector is to name a file, but where do I do that? At first glance, (and at second, too :) the default filename looks like part of the list it sits atop. Dan, You are right that file selector preferences vary, and that those so choosing can install a third-party offering. (Well, sort of. I tried LGFS and found that Geneva still uses its internal version at the Geneva Open command, likely to support the multiple-extension file selector call.) The primary reason for my concern is the timing. Based on the hints you've dropped around the NeoDesk topic, NeoDesk 4 and Geneva are in for a dramatic change in file name conventions. Such a change would leave the NeoDesk/Geneva File Selector in a class by itself. Frankly, I don't want to be forced into a choice between enhanced file names and an intuitive file selector. Of course, you must realize you yourself are at fault--had you not made Geneva so smooth, so seemless, so powerful and yet aesthetically pleasing, the file selector wouldn't stick out so! :) Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 99 Sat Jul 24, 1993 G.KICHOK [Gerry K] at 02:55 EDT Spud Boy, I'll second that two column item selector leaving the the 'GRAB' bar section about an inch left off where it should be. I'm using a MONO with 2.5 megs TOS 1.4 520ST, to produce the effect if I CONTINUOUSLY click on either slider GRAB bar, things get messed up inside the selector. I changed the 'Windows Gadget Repeat to 400ms under the misc options in the taskmanager to see if it helps; and so far so good. Last Edited on 24/July/93 at 00:38 hrs Gerry Kichok Hamilton-Burlington-Oakville Atari User Group Librarian ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 100 Sat Jul 24, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 02:55 EDT Followup on problems with Flash 2. I finally figured out why Flash 2 wouldn't exit back to the desktop. Someone mentioned a problem using the memory limit flag and I remembered that the memory limit flag was being used in Flash. I turned this flag off and flash exited back the desktop. So I think that perhaps the memory limit flag isn't working correctly... John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 101 Sat Jul 24, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 02:59 EDT Dan, In the latest beta, the file selector's scroll button gets lost at times. This is a new bug. Al Tom, I suggest you read Dan's documentation for an explanation on the power of the file selector, and try it out without judging it. Then see what you think. BTW, you CAN use LGS or UIS. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 102 Sat Jul 24, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 03:44 EDT Al, We're talking right past each other on this file selector issue. I *know* that the Geneva selector is powerful and full-featured. My complaint is that it is neither intuitive nor fully consistent with the GEM or Geneva windowing operating system. You affirm my point when you suggest I read the docs before judging. A primary objective of a GUI should be to make manuals (preferably online) obsolete for day-to-day operations and a rarely used reference for less obvious, infrequently used or more complex commands. But I don't want to turn this into a file selector-bashing topic. I've made my point--the file selector is a sharp edge on an otherwise smooth product. Dan, Speaking of online help, the help infrastructure built into Geneva is *nice*. Will you be releasing information soon on the help data file format so that other software publishers can begin supporting it? Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 103 Sat Jul 24, 1993 MYECK.WATERS [myeck] at 13:54 EDT >GRIBNIF [Dan] at 18:19 EDT > Yes, I have thought about using PowerDOS. In fact, I'm going to try to call >Chris Latham in a few minutes. > > With any luck, Geneva can be made to support both MiNT and PowerDOS. As a PowerNet user, I say YES PLEASE!!!! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 104 Sat Jul 24, 1993 G.MON [Gerry] at 15:09 EDT J.DINGA: Were you referring to me? If so, I think you are mistaking me for someone else. I don't think we've met before. I live in Maryland if that helps.... --Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 105 Sat Jul 24, 1993 J.DINGA [Jolly Jon] at 21:44 EDT Gerry Mon, Message was intended for Gerry Kichok. Sorry for the error. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 106 Sat Jul 24, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 23:22 EDT Dan, I have a friend, Pat Forrister, a registered beta owner of GENEVA who is running it on a Falcon. He asked me to let you know that both NeoDesk 3.04 and GENEVA think he can only get ST resolution (low and med) while running. All of the TT resolutions are grayed out. The only way to get it to run in TT med resolution is to boot clean, and then load GENEVA/NeoDesk. But, in this configuration NeoDesk won't let him change resolutions (I think the computer thinks he is in ST high). ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 107 Sun Jul 25, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 00:05 EDT With all the comments flying on the file selector I've got couple too. I think that the ext button should be up by the actual mask. I also think the perhaps some use of color or outlining would be nice to highlight the dialog title and the selected file name. And finally I'd like to be able to move and hide the fileselector like the dialog boxes. BTW I really love being able to hide dialog boxes to look behind them.... John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 108 Sun Jul 25, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 04:25 EDT Tom, As someone who programs, teaches and writes manuals, I cover all the bases you mentioned, and I've gotta tell you I have never found a complicated piece of software that was so intuitive that a user could dispense with the manual. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 109 Sun Jul 25, 1993 M.ERSOFF at 21:07 EDT I have 2 questions concerning Geneva..... 1) How well does Geneva handle non-standard GEM interface programs like ArcShell, STZIP, ICD Utilities, Prism Paint, WP Switch, Didot Lineart, Arabesque, etc? I have tried and disliked Multi-Gem and Multi-TOS. One of the reasons being that they can't handle (read _RUN_) various non-standard GEM interface utility programs such as ArcShell, STZIP, etc. without some unpredictable results (read _I CAN'T GET THEM TO WORK_) 2) Does Geneva run on a Mega ST4 w/ a Moniterm card and monitor? I just wanted to know ... any and all replies are welcome. Take Care ....... Mayer ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 110 Mon Jul 26, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 00:38 EDT Mayer, I've used STZIP, Diamond Edge, EDMSHELL, CANVAS, and Flash II which all do strange or unusual things with the Gem interface. I've found that if the application is pure GEM and follows the rule it will most likely multitask. In all other cases, it will run in single tasking mode. So far I've not run into a program that I haven't been able to get running under geneva. Some of them took some playing with the flags settings to get everything running correctly. I also guess I haven't really tried that many programs, maybe 15- 20... John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 111 Mon Jul 26, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:21 EDT Everyone, There seems to be a problem with using Geneva and Data Diet. I am going to try to fix this, but until then, I suggest you not use Data Diet with Geneva. Sorry about that. There also seems to be a problem with older versions of UIS III (prior to 3.31) not being able to install themselves. Mayer, I remember taking an order from you last week, but I'll still answer your questions anyway : 1. Geneva allows you to set a particular program to single-task. This means that when you first run it, all other applications are "put to sleep" and no longer receive GEM events. This works just great for Arabesque and ArcShell, though I cannot vouch for the others on your list. (STZIP seems to work fine in Multitasking mode for me and the beta testers.) 2. Yes, it runs fine on a Moniterm, or any video resolution, for that matter. Tom, I don't think I'm ever going to make changes to file naming conventions that would preclude using other item selectors. That would be a big mistake in the backward compatibility area. Yes, it is my goal to include a help file compiler. Spud Boy, I wish I could get the item selector to mess up like you and a few other people can. Can anyone give me an exact rundown of precisely what they are running? If you're using Warp 9, please let me know the version number and whether it is the ST or TT version. You can't add more extensions to it now or change the number of visible names, sorry. I'll also look into the memory problem with PGS. Neither NeoDesk nor Geneva properly handles changing resolution on the Falcon. This is going to be looked into as soon as we get ours to test with. Al, There are still some problems with the drive list in the version you have. I've fixed them for the next one. WHEN does it get lost? I can't get anything bad to happen with the item selector at all. John H., I'll have to get a copy of Flash 2 to test with. Interesting that it seems to be a problem with the memory limit. I'm going to have to test thaat with respect to Pagestream, anyway. As far as the desktop patter thing goes, it sounds like something is confusing the way things are being drawn to the screen. I suggest you try rebooting and then try running without some of the programs you are using. If you can narrow it down to a specific program, I'd like to know what it is. There really is no way for the Task Manager to affect your NeoDesk background pattern. If, however, you exited the icon editor when it was messed up like this, and told NeoDesk to save the changes, anything could happen. If you run with Just Geneva and NeoDesk, you should be able to change the patter to what you want without any problem. The major reason for not making the file selector movable/hideable is compatibility. Some programs (like DynaCADD) do not get along with this. Rather than add a very cryptic option (like UIS did) I opted not to permit it. John G., Hmmm...the Window Options dialog uses the same exact code to determine what fonts to allow as the Help Viewer does. It should work almost exactly the same. When you say that you cannot select any fonts, does that mean that the popup does not appear, or that once it does, selecting a font has no affect? Ah, it has something to do with Speedo fonts...hmmm...I'll have to look at the code again. It should be pretty much identical. Gerry, If someone hasn't already, let me know what flags need to be set for LookIt. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 112 Mon Jul 26, 1993 C.ECKERT [Lime] at 18:36 EDT I can't get Laser C (2.1) to work with Geneva. It bombs! (3) when I attempt to compile form the Laser Shell. Also, I use Flash 1.5, and when I come oput of the program, I have to reboot. (4 bombs) I know you already know about PAD. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 113 Mon Jul 26, 1993 C.ALLEN17 [Cliff] at 18:48 EDT Ric, My registration cards will be in the mail tomorrow. Anxiously awaiting Geneva. (I'll spend the time until it arrives playing with NeoDesk and CLI). Take a coffee break upon your return from Asheville. Cliff (Ashevillite) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 114 Mon Jul 26, 1993 M.ERSOFF at 19:39 EDT Dan, Yes, I have already ordered Geneva (can't wait!!!) but the questions I asked poped to mond after our conversation. Thanks for your speedy reply.... Take Care ....... Mayer ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 115 Mon Jul 26, 1993 J.WILES1 at 21:34 EDT Dan, What kind of problem is it between Geneva and Data Diet? I have been using Geneva and Data Diet II for over a week and haven't noticed a problem yet. Give me a clue to what might happen. As for DCFormat, I tried it in multitasking and singletasking mode but still no go. Check it out and see what you find. Like I said, it's no big deal as I use it so rarely. Jeff ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 116 Tue Jul 27, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 02:05 EDT Dan, The two programs that seemed to be causing my problems were Cons_fix and VDI_fix. These two programs were in my Auto folder and were marked read-only. This means I ALWAYS booted with them. I don't even remember what they were for. I did find that I needed to remove both of them. If I only removed one I had other problems. Anyway after removing these two from the autofolder my background screen pattern came back. All I can say is that this was REAL strange. When I first installed Geneva and for a few days of use the background was fine most of the time. Occasionally it would be white on bootup but I usually would immediately reboot and the problem would go away. But once this white background set itself It was there to stay. As I said the colors looked ok in the neocontrol. But if I tried to edit the background nothing would happen. BTW on the Flash 2 problem the problem with exiting and the memory limit business applies to Flash as well. After turning off the memory limit I have no problems at all. Geneva is an excellent program. So far every program that I use has been able to work under it. OK now I havve a new problem. I have both AW and Aladdin setup for single tasking. If I run each of them alone every thing works great. If I run both of them together, I have problems exiting out of AW. Aladdin exits fine. So I can load aladdin. Then load AW. Task switch to Aladdin download a file or whatever. The exit Aladdin everything is fine. If I return to AW and exit I get my blank gem screen with no menu. At this point none of my hotkeys will work. I have taskman setup to ctrl-alt-esc. I've also tried ctrl-alt-l, redraw screen. And every other key sequence I can think of. If instead I don't exit out of AW and instead kill it, I get the gemdos called recursively message... Lime, I have a fix for the Flash problem. Go into taskman and turn off the memory limit flag. After that Flash worked fine for me. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 117 Tue Jul 27, 1993 G.KICHOK [Gerry K] at 19:05 EDT Dan, The Item Selector slider bar display problem happens when clicking and holding down the left mouse button on the moving block of the sliding selector in either window, or in single window display. Running on my 520ST TOS1.4 with 2.5megs on MONO SM124 no BLitter: My autofolder C:\AUTO\*.PRG XBOOT .PRG JAR19 .PRG GENEVA .PRG NEOLOAD .PRG NO ACC's loaded at boot up and _ONLY_ TASKMAN.ACC run in GEM.CNF, and the NeoDesk 3.04 shell. I have a PI3 I could GEmail to you Dan if that would help. Remember it's the HOLDING down of the left mouse button on the movable part of the slider that is causing the display problems. * Speaking of which I've found the 'About GENEVA' dialog box does not go away VISUALLY if I use WARP 9 3.75, as well as the MOVE display box, and similar stuff. The boxes aren't really there so that when I draw a new NeoDesk window overtop the boxes get cleaned up. Last Edited on 27/July/93 at 17:08 hrs Gerry Kichok ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 118 Tue Jul 27, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 19:53 EDT Dan, Opps, cross post - forget my second asking of the Speedo Fonts in the Windows dialog. Anyway - I cannot get the scrollable list to pop out. "System Font" is what is in the box, but clicking on it has not effect. Hope this helps, John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 119 Tue Jul 27, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:24 EDT Mayer, Geneva runs ARC Shell, ST ZIP, the ICD Utils (some of the very latest seem to have a small problem, though, but it's gotta be fixable). I don't know about the others you mentioned; I don't have them. I ran two ST ZIPs at the same time on both my TT and on my 16-mHz ST the other day, both extracting files that were 4+ megs. They did fine. (Actually, I am not saying this right. I ran the same ST ZUIP twice. You can do that. You just click on the icon again after it runs the first time, and it runs again.) Dan, Speedo works fine on the TT and the ST for the window-options fonts. Of course, you can only choose the monospaced font, but what the heck. BTW, NVDI and ANSI10.FNT (not sure of the source of that font) work extraordinarily well as an alternate font. ANSI10 reports itself as 9 pts to Geneva, but has a 10- pt shoulder. (In other words, it's a font that takes up 10 pts but is actually 9 pts in appearance.) As a result, the 9-pt sizing is exceptionally clear and clean, and the smaller windows work wonderfully. I am able to make my screen real estate quite a bit larger, with no loss in legibility (and in fact, sicne the font is about the most legible of all the alternate screen fonts I have seen, the desktop text is more legible than with the standard 10-pt Atari font). John, AW does not need to single-task. It's an excellent multitasker, in fact. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 120 Wed Jul 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:23 EDT Gerry and Dan, The problem Gerry is describing with the slider occurs on my TT and ST. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 121 Wed Jul 28, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:29 EDT Everyone, I have confirmed that there is a bug with the memory limit feature. It will cause a lockup under certain situations. While it does work with Calamus 1.09N, it does not work properly with Pagestream, and probably also not with Flash 2. Gerry, I'll give your exact setup a try. John H., I'm familiar with VDI fix, but not with cons_fix. Do you or anyone else know where to get it? Does the Atari Works/Aladdin thing only happen where AW is concerned. How about with a different single tasking program? I don't have AW here to test with, yet. Lime, I'll look into those. Thanks. Jeff, Perhaps my blanket "don't use it" was a bit hasty. The report I've had has to do with the original Data Diet's ability to clean up the working directory when programs quit. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 122 Wed Jul 28, 1993 J.DINGA [Jolly Jon] at 19:27 EDT DAN, I was considering buying DataLite2. Considering that dataDiet has a problem with GENEVA, do you know if DL2 has as well? _hope not_ ;) JON ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 123 Wed Jul 28, 1993 K.GERDES [TraceTech] at 22:04 EDT Dan, Don't feel bad, I'm use to "hasty blanket" statements. It isn't the first time someone said not to use Data Diet... ;) I'll try to keep this short since this is cross-topic. Re: Data Diet & Geneva Data Diet v1 owners should be using the v1.0b package release. This version addressed the usage of Data Diet and MultiGEM- a multiprocessing environment. Specifically DD's WORK directory maintenance was enhanced. Data Diet v2 owners have a couple of choices: 1) Run DD as you have been. Though being aware that #C entries will affect system-wide DD parameters. 2) Create a second DATADIET.INF file that does not have a #C section, avoiding possible confusion during system use. Under Geneva and MTOS, you no longer have a linear process structure therefore the logic pertaining to #C may create side effects at times. Really, the only parameter to be concerned with is when you have DD turned OFF- D0. Please note, the #C section, DD Control by Program Name, is completely optional. In DDv2, it was added as a user convenience to change parameters automatically when a program is run. The rest of the INF works just fine, giving you some alternatives to using a #C entry. If you have further questions about Data Diet or Squish, come on over to CAT2 TOP12. - Keith [TraceTech] ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 124 Wed Jul 28, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 23:01 EDT Dan, I am using a TT030 with 8 megs. I get the same results regardless of what is in my Auto folder. I use Warp 9 version 3.75 but I tried booting with just Neoload, Jar10, and Geneva and get the same selector scroll bar problem. They seem to mess up only when dragging the scroll bar, if I just short click on it it works fine. Just curious, how are you going to release updates, on GEnie or in the mail? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 125 Thu Jul 29, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 01:03 EDT Dan, I presume I got VDI_fix and cons_fix off genie. I can't imagine where else I might have got them. The Atari Works/Aladdin problem only affects exiting from atari works. I tried it with some other applications and have concluded that it occurs most often when you run two singletasking applications at the same time. I tested most things by running aladdin and something else. Aladdin and Flash II, exit flash and things lockup. Aladdin and a tos application, exit the tos app and everything locks up. These lookups look the same as the memory limit lockups. I also reconfigured AW back to multitasking and the problem with Aladdin and AW has gone away. I only made it SingleTasking when I was trying to track down my speedo print problems, which were due to warp 9 problems. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 126 Thu Jul 29, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 02:04 EDT Dan, Thanks for the tip. I've been going batty trying to figure out why my program DrumKitz started locking up upon exit while in Geneva when it didn't originally. I turned off the memory limit feature & all is well. I've noticed that if I tear off a menu and then close the menu that it doesn't get returned to its proper x,y location when part of the normal menu. I too have gotten the file selector scroller bug to happen by holding down the mouse on the scroll button. This system is gonna be great once you get it hashed out completely. Thanks, --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 127 Thu Jul 29, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 19:11 EDT Al, So you are saying, with Speedo installed with Speedo fonts (NO BITMAPPED FONTS!) I can call up the two monospaced scaleable fonts and install them in my windows? Hmm, isn't working that way for me. John E. Gniewkowski Editor, GEnieLamp ST ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 128 Fri Jul 30, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:18 EDT Yes, John, on the TT and the ST here, the Speedo mono font works in G. But my experience over quite some time with Geneva and with NVDI shows that NVDI is by far a better choice than any other GDOS. It speeds up G's screen operations (under any DA or GEM app) more than Warp 9, for whatever reason, and allows the use of any monospaced GDOS fonts in the windows. TOAD sells NVDI and Gribnif will be, we hope, selling an improved version that will work with the Crazy Dots II card. It's interesting that Gribnif has this connection with8 NVDI, since the developer of NVDI has the only serious competitor to Geneva in Mag!x, a multitasker with a German flavor. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 129 Sat Jul 31, 1993 M.ERSOFF at 18:49 EDT Hello Dan, I got GENEVA yesterday and I've been playing around with it since. GREAT PROGRAM (or whatever you call it ). I've got everything pretty well configured with various flags set for various programs. I do have one question, however,..... Ocassionally after quitting many programs (PGS2, Outline Art, WORKS, etc.) I get the following message: Fatal Error In Geneva: GEMDOS called Recursively This only happens when I quit many programs one after another. Do you have any suggestions?? Otherwise EVERYTHING is fantastic!! Take Care ........ Mayer ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 130 Sat Jul 31, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 19:47 EDT Al, I have two mono fonts (Pica 10 and Mono 821), plus a lot of others. How many other fonts do you have active, besides your (speedo) mono? When I go to the font pulldown I get nothing (I thought it would at least pull down and say 'System' there). maybe I have too many fonts loaded, time to do some pruning (takes too long for AW to load anyway!) Thanks, John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 131 Sun Aug 01, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:10 EDT John, I have different configs I use for Speedo. One has 84 fonts active, but even that doesn't take very long to load. I haven't done much more testing with Speedo and Geneva because, A) Speedo slows things down a bit overall, and B) NVDI is a much better GDOS. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 132 Mon Aug 02, 1993 J.KRZYSZTOW [JEFFREY] at 00:28 EDT Jolly Jon, Yes Geneva works quit well with DataLite2. As a matter of fact, I, venot found anything that hasn't work with DataLite2. Jeffrey ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 133 Mon Aug 02, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 05:08 EDT I just read all the Geneva messages and noticed that someone has had a problem using Laser C with Geneva. Are there problems with other development tools? Is the problem with Laser C resolvable? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 134 Mon Aug 02, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 07:37 EDT Al, I haven't noticed any slowdown since I installed SpeedoGDOS on my TT. Do you mean that it slows down Geneva? Also, I didn't know that NVDI was a GDOS at all ... does it use the Speedo fonts? I've been monitoring this topic but I might well have missed something, so let me get system-specific here ... I want to continue using the Hotwire/Maxifile/LGS combo, and Warp 9 (with its screensavers and Fkeyed alert buttons), and Atari Works, all on a TT with 3.06 and a TT High monitor. Can I do all that with Geneva at present? gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 135 Mon Aug 02, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:33 EDT Everyone, One important note: if you are experiencing random problems with Geneva, please make sure you are running POOLFIX4 (#14960) or POOLFX92 (#24292), assuming your TOS version needs it. I also suspect that perhaps this is the reason for the unexpected "GEMDOS called recursively" errors. gnox, NVDI directly replaces the non-Speedo Atari GDOS, as well as providing VDI accleration. Hotwire does not work 100% with Geneva. While you can run most programs, they are launched in single-tasking mode. The rest of your setup (with the exception of Funkalert, which is not needed because Geneva already does this) is fine. Joe Z., I am not yet sure what the problem with Laser C is. Geneva was written with Pure C and Interface, so I know they both work fine . And I'm sure I would have heard if Lattice didn't work right. Al, Just to avoid confusion, everyone should know that the version of NVDI we are going to sell very soon will be *only* for the Crazy Dots board. Keith, Thanks muchly for the info. Kevin, Can you give me an exact sequence of steps to get the tear away menus to mess up? I cannot reproduce that here. Spud Boy, I'll look into the scroll bar problem more. At this point, it looks like the only update will be the final version, which will be sent you in the mail. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 136 Mon Aug 02, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:05 EDT Gnox, NVDI *is* a GDOS. Very cleverly done. It speeds up the computer's display ALL the time, and GDOS is always active. It makes use of standard bitmapped fonts, not Speedo fonts. Sure, all the stuff you list works fine. I guess the point that needs remaking is that Geneva's compatibility is about as high as TOS's compatibility. If it won't run under a TOS version, it might even run under G, so maybe I should say it is *higher*.... G has its own fkey alert setup, one that replaces Warp's -- and is dramatically more sophisticated. (No criticism of Warp; I love it.) Keep in mind that as a shell, HotWire does not multitask. But G can run HotWire just fine. I'll try to post a short essay about multitasking and G. There's a lot of confusion over whether NeoD is needed; it is not. But if you use a shell of any kind (like the TOS desktop, HotWire, NeoD, etc.) you will not get multitasking WITHIN THAT SHELL unless the shell follows the new rules (they are Atari's rules, not Gribnif's). But you can multitask THAT SHELL WITHIN GENEVA. Whee! That big type looks woofy. Sorry... Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 137 Mon Aug 02, 1993 J.WILES1 at 19:13 EDT Dan, Got back yesterday evening from showing Geneva (with your permission of course) at a user group show and everyone seemed pretty impressed. I had a printout of three different benchmark tests I had done showing how my STe with Geneva compared to the same machine without Geneva. People were REALLY impressed with how there was hardly any speed difference in speed when running under a multitasking environment. You guys have another winner on your hands. Jeff ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 138 Mon Aug 02, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:05 EDT Long post warning! (I am uploading this as a library file also, so if you do not want to go through this or want to make sure you have it as a file that you can share with others, you can download it as HOWGENEV.ZIP.) Geneva'S MULTITASKING: YOU DON'T NEED ANYTHING ELSE TO ACHIEVE IT By Al Fasoldt Geneva beta tester August 2, 1993 (The author is systems editor of the Syracuse Newspapers and a syndicated columnist on consumer technology. He is the author of "Secrets of NeoDesk," "Secrets of Flash" and other texts in the "Secrets of ..." series, and has programmed for the Atari and other platforms.) Copyright (C) 1993 by Al Fasoldt. All rights reserved. (Please feel free to distribute this widely) Gribnif Software's Geneva and multitasking: Geneva itself is a multitasking environment for the Atari line of computers. It does not need any third-party software to run many tasks (programs) at the same time. This means that Geneva does NOT need any specific replacement desktop or any other specific add-on software to do its job. Period. But why, then, is there so much talk about Geneva and NeoDesk? The common misconception is that Geneva needs NeoDesk in order to multitask, and that, as I have just pointed out, is not the case. Here's the real story. By itself, Geneva is a replacement for the built-in AES in Atari computers. The AES is the Application Environment Services -- the part of the computer's operating system that handles windows, dialogs and things like that. The AES is a vital part of the operating system, and is what gives GEM -- the Atari Graphics Environment Manager -- its distinctive "look and feel." Geneva doesn't have its own built-in desktop. That's the job of another part of the operating system. Usually, the desktop is also built into the computer, just like the AES. But when you run Geneva, you have to depend on an externally loaded desktop, one that Geneva itself loads. And that's the rub. If you want Geneva to work with a desktop of any kind, you must decide whether you want the desktop to support multitasking. If it does not support multitasking, the desktop will run only ONE application at a time. Right now, the only add-on desktop that supports multitasking is the one that was developed by the same programmer who created Geneva, NeoDesk (and only NeoDesk 3.04 on up). Other desktops will support multitasking before long, but as of now, NeoDesk is the only one. Let's back up and go over this entire issue of a desktop. Can you run Geneva without a desktop? Yes, with no problem at all. Does that mean you can buy Geneva and multitask to your heart's content without owning NeoDesk? Yes, indeed. To repeat, you do not need to use NeoDesk to multitask with Geneva. But without a desktop, how can you open windows and work with file lists and click on icons and all that sort of thing? Basically, you can't do "all that sort of thing" in just that sort of way. We like desktops -- or, most of us like desktops -- because of the way they integrate the image of a real desktop with the workings of the operating system. You see the icon of a folder and click on it and it opens to reveal files; you drag an icon to another one and drop it there, and magical things happen. The Mac, the Atari and Microsoft's Windows make this sort of thing very easy and very intuitive. So how do you work with Geneva if you don't have a desktop under Geneva? You use Geneva's own menu, which is the main GEM menu when you run Geneva by itself. You choose "Open" and select an application to run. You can even select FIVE applications to run, all at the same time, from Geneva's powerful item selector. (The item selector also lets you create folders and delete files, and it has an exceptionally powerful search feature. If it had one more feature -- the ability to copy files and folders -- it would compete with the champ in this area, MaxiFile.) Or you use the Task Manager, which is a separate utility supplied with Geneva. It manages tasks, obviously; but it does much, much more, allowing you to customize Geneva in ways that can make any GEM application you run under Geneva look and behave like the best Windows application or the best Mac software. The Task Manager lets you put running programs to sleep instantly with a mouse click or a keypress. (In fact, Geneva can do that itself without the need for the Task Manager's presence, if you want to save a little memory and leave the Task Manager out). Here's a typical scenario. You boot up with Geneva and nothing else -- not even any desk accessories. Want to have the Task Manager running? Open Geneva's item selector, and click on TASKMAN. (It doesn't matter whether TASKMAN is in the file list as a program or a desk accessory; Geneva can run a desk accessory at any time, even after your computer is booted up.) Want more desk accessories? Use the item selector and run them. Want to run Atari Works? Use the item selector (or the similar command in the Task Manager) and run it. OK, now you have a bunch of desk accessories (any number -- Geneva has no limit) and Atari Works running. Need to receive a fax that is supposed to come in some time that evening? Go to the desk menu, choose Geneva, and Atari Works becomes a background application (with its windows, but not its main menu bar, still visible). Then run STraight FAX! from Geneva's menu. Set up STraight FAX! to receive a fax automatically, then go to the desk menu again and choose Atari Works. Atari Works' GEM menu bar reappears, and its windows come back to the foreground, and you can resume what you were doing in any of the three modules of Atari Works. But then you realize you'd like a little music while you are writing. Drop down the desk menu and run Paula (the mod file player) as either a program or an accessory. Paula's window appears, you select a group of mod files, and then you switch back to Atari Works; Paula keeps playing all the time, and STraight FAX! keeps watching for that fax to come in. When you have finsihed writing in Atari Works, you want to get all its GEM windows off the screen so you can play Breakout. No need to exit Atari Works -- you might want to use the database function later -- so you merely open the desk menu and hold down [Shift] while you click on the listing for Atari Works ... and Atari Works goes to sleep, its windows gone, its processor time released back to the system and its current status preserved for the moment that it is awakened. Your fax comes in, and STraight FAX! alerts you with a tone and pops itself into the foreground, saves the fax, then disappears behind the Breakout window. You return to the desk menu and click on the entry for Atari Works and is bounces back to life, returning to the exact state it was in when you gave it a sleeping pill. You do some more work, then decide to make a call with Aladdin. Things get interesting at this point. Aladdin is not on friendly terms with a multitasking system; it thinks it owns the computer, and it definitely lays claims on the standard modem port. But STraight FAX! (running on a Mega STe or TT) has an advantage; you already set up to use an alternate modem port, so Aladdin can do what it wants at the same time. (Yes, you don't need to quit STraight FAX! to run Aladdin or another telecommunications program under Geneva, as long as you have more than one serial port.) Geneva, through the Task Manager's setup, knows that Aladdin is uncooperative, so when you run Aladdin all the other applications are immeidately suspended -- put to sleep. When you are through with your call to GEnie, you go to the desk menu and click on Atari Works or STraight FAX!, and Geneva puts Aladdin to sleep while waking up the others. Is this sort of thing true? Yes. Is it easy? Definitely. Do you need NeoDesk to do this? No. Geneva does it by itself. ... But what happens if you decide to use your favorite replacement desktop under Geneva? Suppose you run HotWire; will Geneva coexist with HotWire? Of course. But will HotWire be able to launch one program and then run another while the first one is running? No. HotWire was not designed to multitask. So does that kill Geneva's multitasking? Not at all. It only means that the replacement desktop can only run one program at a time, like it always operates under the standard AES. But Geneva is still multitasking, and that means that Geneva can be running other applications at the same time as HotWire -- TWO HotWires, even, or one HotWire and one TeraDesk. You get the point. ... Much of the way Geneva works hasn't been touched on here. For example, you don't really need to go to the desk menu to switch to another application; Geneva lets you do this with a keypress. And I haven't even pointed out that Geneva lets you manipulate the windows and features of GEM programs that are running in the background, just by holding down the right button while you click and scroll with the left one. You can block off a section of text in Atari Works and save it to the clipboard with another application in the foreground, for example. And, lastly, Geneva does all this without slowing your system down with a lot of overhead. It's lean, clean and mean, and is clearly the best single piece of software for the Atari since GEM was developed nine years ago. Your computing life under Geneva is about to take a dramatic new course. Al Fasoldt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 139 Mon Aug 02, 1993 T.HENRY12 [Tom Jr.] at 20:09 EDT Dan, Can I assume that I'll be able to use the NVDI for CDII and Speedo GDOS with no problems if they are both kinda GDOS's. Please excuse my programming/system ignorance. Thanks Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 140 Mon Aug 02, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:14 EDT All: I have just uploaded HOWGENEV.ZIP, the text describing Geneva's multitasking, and GENSHOTS.ZIP, some screen shots of Geneva doing benchmarks. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 141 Mon Aug 02, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 21:40 EDT Al, When running GENEVA and Atari Works, try using the CNTRL-M feature in AW. I get two bombs everytime. This feature works just fine if GENEVA is not running. (BTW, CNTRL-M removes [RET] from the end of lines. This feature is a must when importing files from applications such as Migraph OCR). I have tried messing with all of the flags and can't seem to get this to work. I am pretty sure from your posts, that you have AW and I KNOW you run GENEVA, maybe you can tell me if I have found a bug or am just missing something obvious. I am running Geneva on my TT030/8. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 142 Mon Aug 02, 1993 C.ECKERT [Lime] at 23:32 EDT Dan- I use Dr. T's programs. I have just upgraded to Omega II and Xor 1.2. I ran the G debugger and continued to get messages that an invalid window handle was being used <1>, Also the menu bar is buggy- when I click on an item, the entire menu bar moves over a couple of pixels. The only flags I tried to set are the AES 4.0 messages and menu-bar redraw on/off (both ways), basically nothing changes. I can get my instruments to play, but when I change modules in the program, the menu bar changes and flashes on and off, and I'm unable to use it. Thought you'd like to know what happens with this complex program. Any suggestions! (By the way, the OLD Flash (1.5) works fine with the limit memory flag turned off!) I still can't get Megamax Laser C to compile. (Looks like I'm due for another C compiler anyway). ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 143 Tue Aug 03, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 07:25 EDT Thanks for clarifying that, Al! My order's on the way. gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 144 Tue Aug 03, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:31 EDT Tom, You can use NVDI and Speedo GDOS at the same time. I do it. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 145 Tue Aug 03, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:57 EDT Spud, I'll check this out (AW and Ctrl-M). Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 146 Tue Aug 03, 1993 T.HENRY12 [Tom Jr.] at 19:51 EDT Al, Cool. Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 147 Thu Aug 05, 1993 E.WINDELL [GENE] at 05:19 EDT As I understand it, Geneva is a replacement for MultiTOS. Seems the most popular method for accessing CD-ROM drives (with the Falcon030) is to use the software drivers that work with MultiTOS. Will the MultiTOS CD-ROM drivers work with Geneva in the absense of MultiTOS? Gene ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 148 Thu Aug 05, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:55 EDT Gene, Once Geneva works with MiNT (it's almost there!), you will be able to use the MiNT CD-ROM drivers. Lime, The invalid handle warnings are there to warn a programmer who is writing a program that he has made a mistake. When you use the "normal" version of Geneva, the error is just ignored. The menu bar moving over: while that might be a bug in Geneva, I don't think it is. I'll have to try to get a copy of the software to test this with. Are there any demo versions available that you know of? Did you try the "Keep menu bar/desktop" flag? I'm not usre if that's the one you tried from your description. Al, All I can say is "Wow!" Fine job. Tom, Wrong topic, but I'll answer here, anyway. I have not yet tested Speedo and NVDI together. However, knwoing the way NVDI wasa written (so as to coexist with any other GDOS that is present) there should not be any problem. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 149 Fri Aug 06, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:43 EDT Dan, Just read your reply to Chuck re: it's being more cost efficient to purchase GENEVA w/ Neo patch now and upgrade to NeoD 4 later. I have one, perhaps foolish, question to ask prior to making the purchase. While my system (old 520 w/ AdSpeed and TOS 1.4) is being upgraded I am using a loaner with TOS 1.62. If I install GENEVA on HD using the loaner, will I need to reconfigure anything to have it run on TOS 1.4 when I get _my_ machine back? Everything I run currently co-exists nicely with my old set up. Excuse the foolish question, but I thought it better to _ask_ than to assume. You _know_ what happens when you assume! (If you don't... just ask Felix Unger!) Thanks, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 150 Fri Aug 06, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:46 EDT No, Gene, Geneva is not a replacement for multitos. It's a replacement for the AES, basically. Matt, You should be able to do just fine. Geneva won't trash your setup or anything like that. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 151 Fri Aug 06, 1993 R.SATTLER [Mr.X] at 08:56 EDT I keep hearing everyone mentioning NVDI... uh, what and where is it? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 152 Sat Aug 07, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:38 EDT NVDI is a New Virtual Device Interface, from a company in Germany. It's been around quite a while. It includes its own GDOS, and speeds up the operation of such activities as opening windows and drawing text and graphics. It's faster than Warp 9 at some operations, less flexible than W9 in others. Toad Computers sells it. Gribnif may be selling (or will be selling, if I understand correctly) a version made just for its Crazy Dots II graphics card. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 153 Sun Aug 08, 1993 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 00:15 EDT I can't get Geneva to recognize the TT resolutions or ST high rez on my Falcon. They're greyed out on the Taskman video menu. I really hate being stuck with ST medium rez on my VGA monitor. Is there something I need to do or am I stuck with it that way? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 154 Sun Aug 08, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 11:26 EDT I just got my Geneva. What an incredible piece of work! Congratulations to the guys at Gribnif. Geneva is everything I expected Multitos would be but wasn't. Fast, easy to use, very compatible with everything I've tried so far. One slight problem though: On my Falcon, when I run Geneva from the autofolder, I can't get it to boot up into anything but medium rez. What am I doing wrong? If I run Geneva from the desktop I can get it into other resolutions but not from the autofolder. Thanks. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 155 Sun Aug 08, 1993 R.GRABLE [Richie] at 14:30 EDT I received the .95 version of Geneva with the desire to run Turbo II in a window (BBS program). The program to run TOS or TTP's this way won't be available until the offical release. I have been able to get T2 to run by removing all memory constraints. Should mention that T2 load BinkleyTerm which answers the phone. Got it all to work but the Mega STE-4 froze after I received fido mail and stzipjr was called to uncompress it. Also, without Geneva there is over 3.3 megs free but with it just over 2 megs. Thought it only took about 150 k. Probably will look around for another bbs program that is multi-tasking aware but don't know if there are any or not. Oh yes, when loading Neodesk 3.04 automatically the lists in taskmanager won't work. I can see that virtual disk (aka Windows) is really needed or else a way to expand the onboard memory. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 156 Sun Aug 08, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 22:51 EDT Richie, Something is amiss in your setup. Geneva does, indeed, only take up 120K or so of memory. I have been running it all the time for months and months, on an ST and a TT, and I have not had the memory in my computers disappear. First, please read and re-read the documentation that came with Geneva. I suspect you may have some appplications that are running twice. If you auto- load something from the desktop.inf or newdesk.inf file and also from the SHELL command in GEM.CNF, you'll have two copies running in RAM of whatever shell you use. That's the first thing to check. The second is to start with a clean system, taking out everything except Geneva, and check on the memory that is taken up then. And then gradually add the parts of your typical system configuration back in, checking again each time. Something, somewhere, is stealing memory, and it's not Geneva. BTW, STalker runs very, very well as a background task under Geneva (in fact, it does very well on a stock system, but under G. it does even better). STalker has a mini-BBS mode, and you might find it helpful to try it out. Let me know how your setup turns out. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 157 Sun Aug 08, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 23:33 EDT So how many other Geneva users out there have Falcons? I just got started with Geneva today and am having trouble knowing which of my problems are caused by my own inexperience and which are known beta bugs. 1) I've been unable to autoboot Geneva into anything but medium rez (yucch!) 2) Running Geneva from the desktop instead, am I supposed to first run Neoload from the autofolder if I want to use Neodesk 3.04? Or should I just run Geneva and then open Neoload from the Neodesk3 folder? 3) Does it matter whether I have Neodesk set to unload for execute? Neodesk had been showing up twice in Geneva's application menu and I've been losing my mouse when running Stalker. I turned off unload for execute and *seemed* to solve that problem, but now I run out of memory too quickly. 4) Some applications, like Midi Music Maker and Interlink want to hog the screen. Is there anyway to put them into a window? Is that what "Winni.App" is for? I don't seem to have Winni.App on my disk. Can I use Minniwin.App that came with Multitos? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 158 Mon Aug 09, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:02 EDT I haven't had much luck with Interlink. It leaves a line of garbage in the list of applications under the Desk menu. And it otherwise doesn't seem very Geneva friendly. Anyone had any luck setting flags to get it to cooperate? I haven't. Two Column Printer is also a bust. Maybe the author will re-write it to work within Gem windows. The way it is now, it is useless under Geneva as it hogs everything until its done printing. Again, if anyone has had better luck than I have, please let me know. Thanks. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 159 Mon Aug 09, 1993 R.GRABLE [Richie] at 22:26 EDT I was auto-starting T2 (BBS) using both newdesk.inf and startprg the latter working better. Using newdesk.inf usually guaranteed a crash or lockup with the first user. Running NeoDesk 3.04 as the shell seemed to really eat up memory but since my main goal is running a bbs will try auto-starting T2 via the commands in GEM.CNF. Using the task manager to load everything appears to help and enables me to unload DA if needed. My memory tonight is withing 150k of what it would be without Geneva so I am getting things sorted out. Now if it doesn't lock up when importing mail. Will have to look around for a bbs program that works with Geneva. Transcendence works when loaded via TomShell but I get the dreaded GEMDOS called recursively when Trans unloads (written in GFA) to reload binkleyterm. An excellent, fast multi-tasking system is long overdue for the Atari computer line and as a result the programs to work with it will take a while to get working. Geneva is what Slicctop and Sliccdos should have been. Right now I have 3 or 4 DA's loaded along with Turbo II, and of course, Aladdin. Now if there were only a print manager... ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 160 Mon Aug 09, 1993 C.ALLEN17 [Cliff] at 22:31 EDT Just got my Geneva and NeoDesk 3.04 upgrade. Now to read the documentation that came on the disk. If you all don't see me for a while, I'm playing. Cliff (Ashevillite) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 161 Tue Aug 10, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 00:30 EDT I've had a minor problem with Geneva. Best example is Atari Works. When I run Atari Works in multitasking mode and I open a new document the neodesk file windows show through. This is pretty strange. I've even had file window appear in my AW wordprocessing window. I scrolled it up and it scrolled. refreshing the screen fixed things. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 162 Tue Aug 10, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:55 EDT David, If Neo shows up twice in the app menu, it's because you are auto-running it from the newdesk.file and from geneva. Pick one of the other. :) ... The best way is from the GEM.CNF file, which ensures that Neo gets its shell info from Geneva. Keep Neoload in the auto folder. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 163 Tue Aug 10, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 10:14 EDT Richard & David, Unfortunately, the beta version of Geneva does not understand how to change Falcon video resolutions. There is one thing you can do, though. Create one or more different NEWDESK.INF files (without Geneva loaded) for the different resolutions. Then, either manually copy the correct one over to NEWDESK.INF when you want to go to that rez, or use a program like XBoot which will do it for you. David, 2. Either way of running NeoDesk should work. 3. Having NeoDesk unload for execute is not very useful, since it reloads immediately! Also, there is a bug which causes the double entry you see. 4. A GEM program cannot be put into a window. I wish it was possible, but there would be very few "old" programs that would be compatible with doing this. WINNI is just a test program which opens lots of windows. MINIWIN requires MiNT to run, and right now Geneva does not support using MiNT. Besides, MINIWIN does not put a GEM program into a window, it is primarily for TOS applications. If an application hogs the entire screen, you can usually either put it to sleep with [Control][Alt]Z or switch to another application from the menu bar. Matt, I don't think anything will have to be reconfigured between the two TOS versions you mention. Just plug your HD into the "correct" machine and go. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 164 Tue Aug 10, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 10:22 EDT Al, I know about not running Neodesk from newdesk and from gem.cnf. That's not the source of my problem. It seems to have something to do with Stalker.Prg and with Neodesk unloading for execute and then reloading. When I pin it down precisely, I'll let you know. Has anyone else experienced the garbage in the Desk menu that Interlink causes? Even if I set Interlink as a single non-multitasking application, with lots of flags, this garbage shows up. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 165 Tue Aug 10, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 20:21 EDT Tim P., "Pop!" ~:^)X ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 166 Tue Aug 10, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:15 EDT Dan, I have already got several different rez Newdesk.Inf's created which I use with Mouseboot. But somehow GENEVA in the autofolder manages to override them and always puts the Falcon into medium rez. The only successful workaround I've found is to run GENEVA from the desktop after I'm already in the desired rez. Does the Newdesk file have to be in the same directory as GENEVA? Mouseboot keeps its Newdesk files in a separate folder. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 167 Tue Aug 10, 1993 E.ROSEN [Ed Rosen] at 21:46 EDT All, Anyone have any luck running Word Writer under Geneva? I'm tearing my hair out. The application runs, but most of the time when I try to load an existing document, it tries to load it, that is, the window opens, but then EVERYTHING freezes up and I have to reboot. C I've played with the memory, single tasking flags, and lots of others but nothing seems to help. Even tried loading from a fresh copy from a floppy. Anyone? Dan, Can you give us some concrete examples as to what type of harm may be done by terminating a running task? The manual cautions don't but doesn't say why. Thanks. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 168 Tue Aug 10, 1993 L.HINSLEY [Stargazer] at 23:46 EDT I've to a possible problem to report with running MegaPaint Professional from Codehead Software..... I found that MegaPaint has to be set to a SingleTasking application to run. It uses a custom menu bar and uses a 'External Module' to access the menu bar for accessories. When I run this module the menu bar pops up and I can access the Desk menu. The menu shows that MegaPaint is running as a singletasking application. When I chose to return to MegaPaint, MegaPaint doesn't return and it's menu option gets unloaded from the Desk menu. I can access either Geneva or NeoDesk from the menu, but if I try to run another application the screen clears but the application never comes up. ***** Stargazer ***** ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 169 Wed Aug 11, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:31 EDT Thanks Dan, Phoned the purchase in yesterday! _This_ I am happily waiting for. See ya, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 170 Wed Aug 11, 1993 C.ECKERT [Lime] at 06:42 EDT Word Writer behaves just fine for me, I'm using the default flags. 4 meg ST. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 171 Wed Aug 11, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:48 EDT David, As Dan said, it looks like a small bug that only shows up at certain times. (I have never seen that one -- a lot of good I'm doing if I can't get the thing to break properly! ...) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 172 Wed Aug 11, 1993 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 20:29 EDT Ed: I've loaded Wordwriter, but don't really use it so I don't know if it was working or not. The lock-up you describe sounds like what I get if I try to limit memory, so you might turn that flag off. Dan said, I think, that there are some problems with the limit memory option. As to the harm in terminating a task, you risk a lock-up or a crash, meaning lost data possibly, but no permanent damage to anything on disk. I have found that if you run a program ala olden days, just run it and use it, and exit, there's seldom any problem. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 173 Thu Aug 12, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:16 EDT Stargazer, I'm going to have to try that. Thank you for the bug report. Ed, I'll have to try to dig up a coy of WordWriter. One thing I do suggest is that you try making sure that Limit Memory is off. Another is that you should make sure WordWriter is not configured to fast load, and if you use PinHead or Warp 9, that fast loading is disabled in whichever of these programs you use. It depends a lot on the application you are terminating. You might get crashes at some point in the future. That would be the most obvious sign that the program does not like to be terminated. David, The reason for the garbage in the menu is the same as it is for the double entry. It's a bug in Geneva that crops up because you are unloading NeoDesk. Urgh, I guess you're right. Since Geneva does not set the rez properly from a Falcon NEWDESK.INF file, there really is no way to come up in anything but medium rez when it runs from the AUTO folder. Sorry about that. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 174 Thu Aug 12, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 22:45 EDT Dan, Tell us more about the fast-load bit situation. Do you recommend that the FL bit be turned off in all situations, and that PinHead or Warp 9 NOT have their fast-load routines operating when using Geneva? Or is your concern just with problem apps like WWII? Does G have its own FL routines? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 175 Fri Aug 13, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 01:17 EDT Is there a program that will scan all the programs on your HD and turn off their fast bits? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 176 Fri Aug 13, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:19 EDT Yes, David. MaxiFile does that. It will turn on or off any of the three loading bits, for any or all apps in one pass. It has a zillion other great functions, too. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 177 Fri Aug 13, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 07:36 EDT David, > Is there a program that will scan all the programs on your HD and > turn off their fast bits? MaxiFile. (Squish II can also do that while it compresses or updates your files.) gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 178 Fri Aug 13, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 21:05 EDT David, >Is there a program that will scan all the programs on your HD and >turn off their fast bits? There is also SETFAST.PRG that is in the GEnie library. It will go thru the whole partition and turn it on/off. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Friday, August 13, 1993 - 8:56:18 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 179 Sat Aug 14, 1993 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 02:33 EDT I use Superboot and it allows me to choose different NewDesk files. It still won't boot in anything but medium. If I load Geneva from the desktop I get the right resolution, but I have to reload all the ACC's and Geneva gets very buggy (and Neodesk thinks it's in high rez). I've stopped using Geneva because of that-- I hate medium rez! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 180 Sat Aug 14, 1993 L.DOWDLE1 [Scott Dowdle] at 03:18 EDT FAIRWEATHER [David], > Is there a program that will scan all the programs on your HD and > turn off their fast bits? You can use MaxiFile 3's filtering options to select all executable file types and then use tool feature to set fastload bit to off. If you don't have MaxiFile there are other utilities but not having to have them I don't know much about them. (grin) TYL, Scott ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 181 Sat Aug 14, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 11:02 EDT Thanks Jeff, I'll look for SETFAST.PRG. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 182 Sat Aug 14, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 11:55 EDT David, I think it is called SETFAST.LZH in the library, or it could be ARC I don't remember. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Saturday, August 14, 1993 - 11:49:00 am ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 183 Sat Aug 14, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 14:06 EDT Actually it was SET_FAST.LZH ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 184 Sat Aug 14, 1993 C.ALLEN17 [Cliff] at 15:15 EDT It's probably something simple but I haven't quite got the hang of it yet. I have set Geneva and Neodesk up on my Mega 4/no hard drive. (using this as a test bed to get use to Geneva). I keep getting the following message: Process Neoload exited with Status #-33 (there is no file with this name) I am in the process of rereading the message base here and going back through the manual. What am I doing wrong? Cliff (Ashevillite) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 185 Sat Aug 14, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:27 EDT Thanks for the info Jeff. Happy to hear it! With the 'ol mighty buck being in somewhat short supply, a quick d/l seems, "more prudent at this juncture." Hey, I've heard that somewhere before.... Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 186 Sat Aug 14, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 22:45 EDT Cliff, Error 33 is File Not Found or somesuch, and Geneva is telling you that either Neoload or Neodesk.exe is not in the path. That's my guess. First, get rid of the auto-run feature of desktop.inf or newdesk.inf and let Geneva run NeoDesk instead, using the SHELL statement in GEM.CNF. Second, get rid of the auto-run selection in any boot manager such as SuperBoot or XBoot, since it will insert the GEM auto-run line back into the desktop file. Third, edit the GEM.CNF file so that EXE is one of the GEMEXT extensions. Fourth, put SHELL=C:\PATH\NEODESK.EXE as the last line of GEM.CNF. Fifth, make sure that both JARXXX.PRG and NEOLOAD.PRG are in the auto folder, with JAR very early. Sixth, enjoy Geneva! Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 187 Sun Aug 15, 1993 C.ALLEN17 [Cliff] at 17:42 EDT Al, Thanks for the info. As soon as I get off the line, I'll give it a try. I think (First) was going to be my next plan. So much to do and so little time to do it in. Cliff (Ashevillite) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 188 Sun Aug 15, 1993 R.GRABLE [Richie] at 22:44 EDT I have an interesting one for you. Am trying to run a bbs under Geneva and have been successful in getting Turbo II and Binkley to work. However, a program called Crossnet is another matter. With only a few flags enabled this was the error message I got when running it from the task manager: Three bombs and this message; Process XNETPROC exited with status #-1 (Data on this drive may be damaged! Check the connections and be sure there is a disk.) When running it from the file menu I get just the 3 bombs. When I disabled all the flags it started to run but then 4 bombs appeared with what looks like 12 low rez bombs below then (am running on a SM-147 and Mega STE-4 with TOS 2.06). Wonder what would happen with the old Mega ST-2 instead? Maybe it will work when it can be run in a window. BTW, both crossnet programs work with Multi-TOS but on a 16mhz machine they are to slow. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 189 Sun Aug 15, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 23:37 EDT Al, How doew Geneva work with Tracker/ST? I would like to have AtariWorks and Tracker running at the same time and be able to transfer info between them. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 190 Mon Aug 16, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:13 EDT Steve, I haven't run Tracker under G yet, but will run it this afternoon and let you know. (Come to think of it, yes, of course I ran Tracker under G the last time I used Tracker! Where's my mind?) Anyway, I'll try Tracker and AW together and let you know. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 191 Mon Aug 16, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 08:19 EST Cliff, >> It's probably something simple but I haven't quite got the >> hang of it yet. I have set Geneva and Neodesk up on my >> Mega 4/no hard drive. (using this as a test bed to get >> use to Geneva). I keep getting the following message: >> Process Neoload exited with Status #-33 (there is no file >> with this name) I am in the process of rereading the >> message base here and going back through the manual. >> What am I doing wrong? I'd try a "bare" setup of JARXXX, GENEVA, and NEOLOAD in the AUTO Folder (in that exact order) and TASKMAN.ACC in the root directory of C:\ and see if the problem persists. Also, 1) make sure that a copy of NEOLOAD.PRG is also found in the C:\NEODESK3 folder as well as NEODESK.EXE (this is where GEM.CNF expects to find it), 2) delete FORMDOIT.PRG from the AUTO Folder, 3) be sure to run JARXXX before GENEVA and GENEVA before WARP9_ST.PRG and G+PLUS.PRG when reordering your AUTO Folder, and 4) edit your NEWDESK.INF file to insure that it no longer states that NEOLOAD.PRG should be autobooted. Also, if you have done it already, be sure GEM.CNF and GENEVA.INF are in the root directory of C:\ and not still in the \GENEVA folder. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 192 Mon Aug 16, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:37 EDT Richie, Is crossnet available as free/shareware? Is it on GEnie? Cliff, For some reason, Geneva is trying to run NEOLOAD.PRG and the file is not found. Most likely, it is either listed in GEM.CNF or your NEWDESK/DESKTOP.INF file. If the latter is the case, you should remove NeoDesk from autobooting and instead use the "shell" line in GEM.CNF. Richard, There is unfortunately no way to select a Falcon resolution with the beta version of Geneva. I have already addresses this for the final release. Al, Only some programs have problems with fast loading. While you would be safest leaving it off for all programs, this is certainly not preferable. The only real way to find out what works and what doesn't is by experimentation. Geneva does not directly alter the way that fast loading works. However, it can make problem programs act up more, simply because of the fact that since Geneva makes use of more memory, it is more likely that a particular block a program receives will not be cleared. Let's say you run Pagestream, quit it, and then run some small utility that requires memory to be cleared. Since the memory it asks for is where Pagestream used to be, it might not be clear anymore. I think I'll just add a program flag to optionally clear any memory a program allocates. This should take care of 99% of the cases. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 193 Mon Aug 16, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:22 EDT Any chance the release version of GENEVA will be available at the Glendale show on Sept 18/19? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 194 Mon Aug 16, 1993 C.ALLEN17 [Cliff] at 21:57 EDT Mike, Dan and Al, It is now working without giving me the error mentioned in my preveious message. Al, I installed NeoDesk and then Geneva. Looking at the Desktop.inf file, I deleted the line containing the autorun NEOLOAD.prg. Whala, working. Lurkers, Don't forget that the majority of people here are more than willing to lend a heplping hand. If you have a problem, ask. If your unsure of what to ask, do your best to explain what is going on and we'll do our best to help. Cliff (Ashevillite) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 195 Mon Aug 16, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 23:23 EDT Dan, A flag for memory clearing sounds great. BTW, how is this handled in the Mac and PC worlds? Do they even do that sort of clearing? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 196 Tue Aug 17, 1993 M.OSTRANDER1 [Mike O] at 22:12 EDT Dan, Thanks for the help upgrading to NeoDesk 3.04! Geneva was working fine for me without NeoDesk, but I sure missed all those icons for file manipulations and such. Sure, there's a slight overhead penalty for a GUI, but Geneva/NeoDesk makes _me_ happy. - Mike ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 197 Wed Aug 18, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 00:26 EDT Al, I'm looking forward to getting Geneva at the Glendale show. I have a Moniterm and I REALLY like the thought of running Tracker and AW and a few other programs together in one fashion or another. What about data transfer between different programs. Is Geneva going to help make it easier. Is there a clipboard or buffer built into Geneva for that? How will I move information from Tracker to Atariworks? Nevin says that there is a big problem. Atari doesn't seem to want to help him out with the information he needs. will it be possible? I have a lot invested in this "old" Mega4. Geneva, along with the Marpit Expansion board (anyone have any experience with that?) and my T-25 will add some life to the system. Using the moniterm with all this going on is going to be fun...(anyone seen Murphy?) Have a good one....Steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 198 Wed Aug 18, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:27 EDT Steve, Marpit, no. Moving info among apps in Geneva requires those apps to support the clipboard, or requires some other method (EdHack would come in handy, I am sure, for those occasions when you need to grab data that doesn't go into the clipboard). As for Tracker and AW, AW will become very popular, and we have some talented software artists around here, so I'd bet there will be a conversion utility. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 199 Wed Aug 18, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 07:49 EDT Hmm... I seem to get a "xxx.PRG exited status -1, drive data may be damaged" alert quite often while running Geneva on my Falcon with 14meg ram & oodles of HD space. I haven't figured out what seems to trigger the problem yet. BTW, I just rec'ved interface, the new RSC editor. IT IS WAAAAAY COOL!!!! Thanks for importing these great programs Dan & Rick. I tell ya, I was leery when I heard it was $99, but knowing the quality of the programs you guys import & then actually using Interface... it is waay cool. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 200 Wed Aug 18, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 11:22 EDT Kevin, I have, by the way, made the -1 error message a little more descriptive for the final version. I am still not sure why you would be getting it, unless it is because the program is either bombing or you are terminating it from Geneva. Some programs do return an error code when they should not, though, due to sloppy programming, so maybe this is the problem. I'm glad to hear you like Interface. David, We're hoping to have it there, yes. With any luck, we will also be shipping out the final version to anyone who is supposed to receive it at, or before, that time. Al, I'm really not sure what they do about memory clearing. I think they just informed programmers not to rely on the memory being cleared in the first place, which is what Atari should have done. Steve, Unfortunately, if there are problems with transferring data between programs that don't want to talk to each other, there really is no way for any outside program to facilitate things. The operating system provides a GEM Clipboard for doing this, but if either program does not want to support it, there is no way around this. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 201 Wed Aug 18, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 14:43 EDT Dan, The -1 error usually happens shortly after double clicking on the program icon. I doubt it could be running out of ram since I still had 10 meg or so free. When I usually get the -1 alert upon starting a program, usually the only way to execute any more programs is to exit Geneva or to reboot the Falcon. I've never seen that message on my 2.5meg 1040STf with TOS2.06. On the 1040, the major problem was a "Recursive GEMDOS call, Fatal error" type of message. Back to using Interface some more... BTW, will the final docs be in German or xlated to English? :) --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 202 Thu Aug 19, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 01:42 EDT I notice something that is a bit confusing and could even be real trouble. When I run a program that modifies the file system neodesk doesn't know about the changes. So if I run a program and it deletes a file. The I exit out of the program and look at the directory with neodesk the file is still there. Hitting esc reloads the directory correctly. This didn't happen before I started using geneva. This has caused me some confusion I even had the problem where I tried running a program that had been deleted resulting in the error code that indicates the file wasn't found. John ------------