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                  Programming Real Time Conference

                          February 17, 1994

                         Host - Mike Allen

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Ok, capture buffer on.  Watch yourselves.  Ok, a
couple of words before we get into our normal chaos.  <damn, GEnie is
slow tonight>

I have been in contact with Karsten Isakovic, the author of SysMon.  The
latest available version of SysMon is 1.0.8.  The docs are 1.0.5.  1.0.9
is in beta test.  He no longers allows SysMon to be posted in BBSs. 
SysMon can be freely distributed, however.  So, if anyone wants the
SysMon 1.0.8, let me know and I will send it by EMail.  Also, let me know
if you need the docs.  As I said, 1.0.5 is the latest version of the
docs.  SysMon is still Shareware and not cheap.  $40 for non-commercial
use and $80 for commercial use.  1.0.9 uses a registration key, by the
way.

In chatting with Karsten, it seems that he is lacking a lot of
information about cookies from american software.  I have sent him the
info about the Gnva and CJar cookies.  I would like to suggest that we
start a cookie collection in lib 19.  I have already uploaded the Atari
cookies, courtesy of Scott Sanders.  Any other cookies that you know of,
especially their structure, could be of interest to others.  We'll check
for dups after they're uploaded.  <hard to do it before.>

Ok, homework.  I was a little confused by what was decided in the last
session.  It looked to me that we decided that a text editor was
"slightly" ambitious.  I got to the point of opening a window.  I _did_
do my first evnt_multi.  I felt like a new ex-virgin.  I think that the
next step should be opening and closing the window.  The entire window
concept is quite new to folks like me.  After we get the window handled,
we can decide what to put in it.  We need to decide what attributes to
enable in the window.  I suggest a minimal set, but I don't know what
that would be.  suggestions, comments?  Floor is open.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Closer, Fuller and Title.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> mover? what would fuller do? <don't everyone talk at
once. grinn>

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Let's you open window to full size, or return to the
previous size.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> two fixed sizes then?

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> or are we just using a full sized window?

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> open at a smaller size and then be able to go to a
full screen?

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> right.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> open at 1/2 vert and horiz size, centered?

<D.WEBB1> hello

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Howdy, D.Webb.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> sure, that would work.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> any other comments on that suggestion? Keith,
Charles, we are kinda looking to your experience for leads.  <g>

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> by using the FULLER, that would get us going towards
using the SIZER box later.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> no adverse comments, so lets leave it at that.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> ok, so it's: NAME, CLOSER, MOVER and FULLER on the
window.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> To summarize, open a window, centered, 1/2 sized in
both dimensions with a CLOSER and FULLER gadget and a title line.  Mover
later, Bud?  With SIZER? I know that I'm going to have my plate full,
without having to move the damn thing.  <g>

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> could do MOVER now, I did a program a few years back,
it wasn't too hard.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Hi, Carl.

<[Carl] CBARRON> Hi, longer user's group meeting than usual <grin>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Hey, bud, I just did evnt_multi.  I'm still very
learing.  user's group?  What's that. 8^{

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> great, evnt_multi still has me scratching my head.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Let's leave mover and sizer for a later assignment.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> not sure how to handle everything it returns.  ok.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> I'm doing a rather clumsy check at the moment.  Carl,
glad to see that you approve of my structuring.  <g> 

<ST.LOU> Hi Charles, Keith...  

<[Carl] CBARRON> mover and sizer are easy handle.  mike your structure is
improving<grin> 

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Carl, easy maybe for you, but I'm still on the
learning curve.  I have to use Fortrash under VMS at work.  

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> I saw some mention of "modeless" dialog boxes.  I
wonder if that could be a topic for a future session?

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Where's ERIN? That was his topic, wasn't it?

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Carl, I assume you understand modeless diaglogs? The
way I understand it is that it is a dialog box with it's own window.

<D.WEBB1> Mike what level of experience is needed here

<[Carl] CBARRON>  I THINK, I understand the concept. Not the details of
implimentation at the moment.  They are windows with object trees for
contents.  they avoid form_do in its entirety, as I gather.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> D.Webb.  Well, some folks are quite proficient. 
Others, like me, are just beginning.

<C.S.SMETON> Modeless dialogs require special form handler routines and
must be intertwined within the main evnt_multi loop, it can be a bit
difficult to create. If there are no editable text fields, it is not too
difficult to implement.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> So really it isn't a dialog box at all?  Just acts
like one?

<C.S.SMETON> However, with editable text fields, you have to take into
account the text cursor and there can be conflicts with Control/Alt key
combinations meaning menu commands vs. special characters in the text
field.  A modeless dialog uses an OBJECT tree, as it would be defined in
RCS. It does not use form_do () to animate it, as form_do () is modal. 
The concept of modeless here means that other parts of the program and
other desk accs (or programs in the case of a Multitasking AES) can be
accessed while the dialog in a window is displayed.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Gotcha.  I think.  Sounds very useful, but I can just
begin to see the complexity with editable test.

<C.S.SMETON> The problem creates is that some menu items may need to be
disabled while a modeless dialog is displayed, since there could be
conflicts if two areas of a program are accessed at the same time.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Seems like modeless dialogs will be the future, then,
with MTOS and Geneva.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> I thought modeless referred to programs that always
present the same options to the user. the opposite would be a program
that has differnet menu bars depending on the mode the user has selected.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Charles - could you define modal and modeless?

<C.S.SMETON> modal is a standard dialog or alert box. You cant proceed
until some action is taken, i.e. exit via a button.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> why the term "modal?"

<C.S.SMETON> modeless is a form in a window. It can have the same
buttons, sliders, popup menus, etc. as a dialog, but the menu bar, other
programs and other windows may be accessed at any time.  Modal = a "mode"
of a program

<[Carl] CBARRON> I tbink its nodal, a normal dialog adds a node to a tree
of places for input, while an nodeles one does not.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Hmmmmmm - I guess I understand.  Things trickle
through my atrophied mind a little slowly.  

<C.S.SMETON> a routine that handels a modal dialog enters and exits once.
While in the routimne, its in a mode of the program.  

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> aha!  gotcha.  Use enough words, and I'll get it
sooner or later.  <g>

<C.S.SMETON> a modeless dialog must be handled through the main
evnt_multi () loop. All events must be tested and are handled based on
what the top window contains.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> I have a question about evnt_multi.  Can it return
more than one event at a time>

<C.S.SMETON> The main problem with modal vs. modeless dialogs, is that
form_do() will handle a dialog while in a mode.  evnt_multi () returns a
mask with bits set for each event.  Assuming that evnt_multi () is
looking for multiple events, it can return multiple events.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> not just the first one it hits, then? if I am looking
for a keybd or a messag event, it could return both?

<C.S.SMETON> form_do () is a basic simple dialog handler. It does not
allow for keyboard equivalents to buttons or other special text editing
capabilities.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Right Mike.  See page 6.69 of the Compendium.

<C.S.SMETON> Mike: Yes, and the program should check the mask and handle
both (normally)

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> <searching for the compendium>

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> middle of the page: RETURN VALUE

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> yup - it says "one or more."  damn, how'd I miss
that?

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> information overload probably.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> back to the source code.  <g>

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> so much to learn...

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Charles and Carl.  Thanks for the discussion.  I
still have a large confusion factor, but things are much clearer than
before.  Anything else to discuss?  Floor's still open.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Did we give a concise definition of the homework
assignment?

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Tim - any late-breaking news on Processor Direct? Bud
I thought so, but I will re-iterate.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> Well, I'm two articles away from being completely
finished, so we'll be sending the disks to DMC to have the stuff put on
film early next week.  Please reiterate for me.  :)

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> building on HW2, which was a menu with an about under
desk and a quit under file, about to key an alert box ...  we are qoing
to open a window.  the window will be 1/2 size in both dimensions and
centered.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> <giggle> Open a window?

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> the window will have a title, a CLOSER and a FULLER
box.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> Why?

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> the fuller box will toggle between full and original
size.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> How detailed would you like the comments in my
source code?

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> should have been there earlier Tim.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> the closer will exit the program.  same as quit from
the file menu.  did I miss anything, Bud?

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> nope, I don't think so.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Tim - source code should have sufficient comments so
that someone other than the programmer can understand it!

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Tim, rule of thumb on comments. Enough so that you
can pick up the program in 6 months and be able to modify without losing
any hair.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Also suggest that heavy error checking sould be done
throughout the program.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> yes.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> Remember that editor that was mentioned at the
first RTC? I've been working on one, and I was wondering if anyone would
like to mess with it when I get it to load and save.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Carl, did you notice my error checking stuck in with
the structuring?  <g>

<[Carl] CBARRON> leaves me out. <grin> I hate comments! <grin> re editor
possibly, but I don't like assembled on any machine. <grin>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Carl - I went back to some C code I did about 10
years ago.  I haven't the foggiest idea what I was doing!

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Needed more comments then!

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Yup.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> For this open-window program, so you need a menu
bar?  Do you need it to compile to a PRG, or just code to open the
windoe?

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Only thing I could figure out was that it was a data
base for CP/M.  Tim - it's gotta work! <you been taking Quale spelling
lessons?>

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> Oh... ok.  I'll see what I can do.  What do you
want in the window.  Sorry for sounding like such a gump.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Tim, I believe it would have to be a PRG to use
windows.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> I know it has to be a PRG.... but Mike's answer
'it's gotta work' told me what I needed to know.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Tim - nothing in the window at the moment.  That's
the next step.  <grin>  Some of us are learning!

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> I see... I'll make it blank.

<[Carl] CBARRON> Anything in this window or just open it???

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> White

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> You can put a naked woman in the window if you want.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> <giggle>  How erotic do you want?

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Anything else?  My back hurts and I want to lie down.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> Have a nice rest.  I'll see if I can get time to
work on the window program.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Ok, capture off.  Have fun all.  thanks for coming.