========================================================================= (C) 1994 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 35 Sun Nov 01, 1992 J.LUCIEN1 at 14:06 EST Sub: SPEEDO GDOS!!! A place to discuss the wonders of SPEEDO GDOS, the newest graphics subsystem enhancement for TOS from ATARI Corp. 203 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 1 Thu Jan 27, 1994 P.WALDING [Phil Walding] at 19:12 EST I have noticed a few comments about Speedo 4.2 and Warp 9 seeming to clash. I have today received and installed Warp 9 V3.80 on my Mega 4 ST and had installed the update to Speedo V4.2 last week. I have a number of of other Auto folder pRG's and ACC's running also and have found no clashes so far. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 2 Thu Jan 27, 1994 COMPO at 23:19 EST Al - Yes, Bitstream has around 1100 typefaces, but only a couple hundred of those can be ordered from Bitstream in Speedo format (they also publish the fonts in PostScript Type 1 and Truetype formats). COMPO sells the whole library in Speedo and Type 1 formats. Individual typefaces cost $29 each, and that includes both the Speedo and Type 1 formats. We have a catalog of all the fonts in the Typeface Library - it is available upon request. Gary - I think I oversimplified before. Each Speedo font has a whole bunch of characters. Each character gets an Index value. For example, "A" is Index 33. The list of which character is assigned to which Index value is called (for the most part) the Bitstream International Character Set. Now we have to map these characters (or indices) to ASCII values. SpeedoGDOS maps Index 33 (A) to ASCII 65, for example. Another example - Index 153 ("1/2") is mapped to ASCII 171. Index 151 ("1/4") is mapped to ASCII 172. Here's the relevant bit - SpeedoGDOS by default does not map any Index values to ASCII values 194-220. While Pradip is correct that some Speedo fonts may not have every character for every index, that really isn't a factor since SpeedoGDOS doesn't map indices to ASCII 194-220 anyway. There is probably a good reason for this, but I don't know what it is. On the other side, That's Write 3 does map characters to values 194-220. While there is some standardization on this ASCII mapping, there can be (and are) differences. Of course, every program that uses SpeedoGDOS will use the same mapping. That's Write 3's ASCII mapping is quite similar to that of SpeedoGDOS but fills in the extra spaces (like ASCII 194-220). Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 3 Fri Jan 28, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 04:55 EST Robert, It would seem that if Speedo does not map those characters that there is an opening for some enterprising soul to write a general purpose remapping program to bring them into the unfilled slots. Maybe, dare I say it, Compo could bring out such a little utility? 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 4 Fri Jan 28, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 05:33 EST Pradip and Robert, Thanks for clearing up the ASCIImapping/Speedo/font/AtariWorks issue. At least I _think_ it's cleared up. Until tomorrow anyway. :) What baffles me now is why the creators of Speedo chose to map (for instance) ASCII 169 and 170 to those useless IBM-set angle characters when they could just as easily have mapped them to smart quotation marks, like Postscript and Compugraphic do. But I don't expect an answer to that question. gnox ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 5 Fri Jan 28, 1994 COMPO at 17:34 EST Gary - > >What baffles me now is why the creators of Speedo chose to map (for instance) >ASCII 169 and 170 to those useless IBM-set angle characters when they could >just as easily have mapped them to smart quotation marks, like Postscript and >Compugraphic do. But I don't expect an answer to that question. > Don't confuse Speedo with SpeedoGDOS. That's Write 3 has the Speedo engine built-in, and we map smart quotation marks to ASCII 169 and 170. Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 6 Fri Jan 28, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 23:37 EST Steve, We use a LOT of Speedo fonts in our newspaper operation, and wouldn't blink at that price. :) Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 7 Sat Jan 29, 1994 STEVE-J [DrHfuhruhurr] at 06:27 EST A.FASOLDT - Well, I'd HOPE they have a volume discount! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 8 Sat Jan 29, 1994 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 07:14 EST Robert, Can we submit requests for the Speedo Typeface catalog here in the roundtable, or via Email? Or do we need to phone or mail a request directly to Compo? Thanks! -- Chuck -- P.S. OOOO-WEE! We just had another good aftershock here in La-La Land! My guess is somewhere close to 5.0... It's just about 3:25 am here... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 9 Sat Jan 29, 1994 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 09:46 EST That's quite a bit considering how much I just paid for the 50 font, font pack. Why the big difference? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 10 Sun Jan 30, 1994 STEVE-J [DrHfuhruhurr] at 05:40 EST I think the $18 50-font pack for WordPerfect 6.0 DOS is enough for me -- considering you're getting them for 99% off normal price!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 11 Mon Jan 31, 1994 M.MASTALER [Mike] at 02:10 EST Remember though, if you JUST buy the Wordperfect 6.0 font pack, the discs are HD (high density!). I bought them from Toad computers, and toad loads them onto 720K disks for us ST people. You pay about $35, but how many of us have the capability to copy High density diskx to 720 disks. Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 13 Mon Jan 31, 1994 COMPO at 16:19 EST Chuck - Please send requests for our typeface catalog (or anything else) in email. Wayne - Well, we have our basic typeface pricing, which is per face with discounts on multiple faces. Most typeface publishers have a similar policy. But we have a number of customers who first want a general assortment of typefaces and second want it really inexpensive. For them we have font bundle packs. We currently have five bundle packs, and Bitstream has a few. The price per font can drop to below a buck per font in these packs. So bundle packs exist somewhat outside of the basic typeface market, and pricing. Good quality typefaces are quite expensive to design and produce, but by publishing bundle packs we satisfy entry level users and the mass market. Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 14 Tue Feb 01, 1994 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 00:44 EST Robert, I can imagine what it takes to create a typeface. I played around with the bitmapped fonts and it was time consuming. I will catch ya in Email about bundle pricing and availability. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 15 Tue Feb 01, 1994 R.BEATTY3 [Buffalo Bob] at 02:38 EST Al, I've started to respond to this subject of the long post three times, then decided to stay out. Third times a charm... I liked the post. Great post. I'm glad you're here to help. I can understand people being upset if that length was the norm; but it ain't. Thanks. Bob Beatty ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 16 Tue Feb 01, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 05:50 EST Robert, Where can we find more information on your bundles? I bought one last year and have been happy with it - I use the Type 1s with PageStream and the Speedo versions with Atari Works. I didn't know you had five bundles. gnox ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 17 Tue Feb 01, 1994 COMPO at 15:47 EST Gary - I will send you info on font packs if you'd like. Please email me and confirm your address. Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 18 Tue Feb 01, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:28 EST Thanks, Buf! Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 19 Tue Feb 01, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:14 EST Robert. You have my address. Please send the font-pack info! Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 20 Wed Feb 02, 1994 G.SIMUNOVICH [G.SIMUNOVICH] at 22:16 EST I'm having a few problems with my new LJ4 and printing with SpeedoGDOS4.2 and AtariWork (using the LazerJet driver that was with SpeedoGDOS 4.0). Problem 1: Using large point sizes and some special effects (bold and/or italics) the characters come out really messed up. My only guess is the printer doesn't have enough memory. Problem 2: The outline effect seems to crash SpeedoGDOS or the driver. It just hangs there and MultiTos reports a bus error. SpeedoGDOS seems to print outlines ok, but sometimes gives the scratch buffer warning (even on my 14 meg Falcon, ick). I have tried huge caches (2 meg each), bare booting, etc. Any ideas? Is there (soon???) going to be a driver for the LJ4? I bet things would look real nice at 600dpi in stead of 300. Thanks, George ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 21 Thu Feb 03, 1994 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 01:40 EST Hey Al, I don't have a problem with anyone who takes the time to either dig out some usefull information or to offer advice and help to a fellow user. I didn't need the info on GDOS but it didn't bother me to see you post it. It must have cost everyone about .02 to scroll by that thing, big deal. There are probably a few people who got something out of that message so I think it was well worth it. People shouldn't bitch about people helping people... I enjoyed scrolling through that message more than reading the complaints. Steve Blackburn P.S. Is there a way to tell what a font is when looking through your folder of fonts? BX0000012.SPD doesn't really tell me much... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 22 Thu Feb 03, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:40 EST Steve, Robert (Compo) can tell you how to "read" the ID of fonts. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 23 Sat Feb 05, 1994 S.NOAH [Stu] at 18:59 EST Speedo 4.2 ??? Will it support True Type fonts, with the MAC and Windows supporting this format, they seem to have virtually become THE standard for the desktop. I won't hold my breath... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 24 Sun Feb 06, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:24 EST Stu, No, Speedo 4.2 supports Speedo fonts, which in nearly every way are superior to TrueType fonts. We use Speedo fonts in professional newspaper publishing, and would not use any other. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 25 Mon Feb 07, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 17:37 EST Al, But I still can't make my own Speedo fonts.... :( Not good. --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 26 Tue Feb 08, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:26 EST Kevin, Microsoft's TrueType font-scaling system is clever and very well thought-out, but the open specs of the TType system make it easy for anyone to create poorly hinted TT fonts. As a result, you can find thousands of free TT fonts if you look long enough. (I know; I found 500 or so without much effort!) Most of them a terrible, once you know what a good font looks like. On the other hand, using Speedo fonts professionally and in my two Ataris, I can say I have only found ONE Speedo font that is unsatisfactory. Because it is practically impossible to clone them, they are nearly all top quality. In the end, that's a better situation. The BEST situation, of course, would be for Bitstream to release its full font catalog in Speedo, with each font costing a couple of dollars when bought in packs of, say, 50. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 27 Tue Feb 08, 1994 STEVE-J [DrHfuhruhurr] at 05:04 EST PG.MUSIC - There are supposedly two Speedo font editors available for IBM machines -- but that doesn't really help Atari owners, does it? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 28 Tue Feb 08, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 11:06 EST Steve-J, Actually, it sure would help me. I have a 486 VLB machine next to the Falcon. :) Al, I'm talking about a music font. Specific to our (PG) applications and in TT format for the PC. If I could convert it to Speedo, OR if GDOS supported TT fonts (I hear it doesn't cause the T's are too cheap to pay for licensing TT from MSloth). I'm not talking about a KiloBux program Al. I'm talking about $30 to $50 educational programs that need onscreen and printable music notation. I doub't you'd take something like that and try to print directly to linotype. Steve-J, could you find the name of that editor and anything you can tell me about it? :) Where could I get it. --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 29 Tue Feb 08, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 16:53 EST Kevin, The Megatype people have a converter that interprets TrueType and converts to their ECF format. From there it can be translated to Calamus CFN, Pagestream DMF and, I believe, Postscript Type 1. Once you have a font in CFN format you can generate a GDOS font with Compo's C-Font. The font editor that is available from Bitstream is a "font styler". It allows you to do text effects such as curved, along a path, various fills and masks, etc. It does not allow you to create a font, it just allows you to "prettify" it. Runs only on the MS-Dross platform. There are rumbles coming from the continent that similar programs will be appearing from 3rd party developers for the Atari. If someone cracks the Speedo coding we may even see a font editor - and probably a lawsuit, too. 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 30 Tue Feb 08, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:43 EST Steve, Find out more about those two Speedo font editors for PCs, please; I could use them, and share the output (if that's legal) with others. Howeverm you might be referring to the Bitstream apps that do type manipulation. They don't let you save revised Speedo fonts. You basically create a graphic that you can import. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 31 Tue Feb 08, 1994 R.CARPENTE18 [Bob C.] at 19:49 EST Papa, I didn't know that Megatype's TrueType converter had been released yet. Thanks for the info. Now if Bitstream would let someone (like Megatype) have the Speedo format, then we'd get somewhere! Hopefully, they'll have better luck than I did with Bitstream. Al, We're not all professional typesetters here. I WANT cheap fonts! I can't afford to spend $30-$40 for a package of fonts. Most TT fonts I've found are good enough for my purposes (newsletters, etc). Until Bitstream realizes why TT is so popular (it's an open format), it's going to relegated to second- class status in the PC community. I know of very few PCs that use Speedo. On the Atari, I've got my doubts (even though I love SpeedoGDOS) that Speedo will take off until Bitstream eases up a bit. The majority of people are going to want to have the "cheap" option. A converter would be a godsend. I usually use a few really nice fonts (for body text) and am willing to pay to get nice fonts. The other fonts are just for effect. Those fonts can be of a lesser quality and still be good enough. Bob Carpenter ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 32 Tue Feb 08, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:41 EST Kevin, Ah, I see what you mean. It would be nice. Papa, MS-DROSS! I love it! Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 33 Tue Feb 08, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 22:06 EST Bob C., I see what you are saying. Speedo has been around a while, and doesn't need to take off. With so many cheap fonts out there, there's no question that TT fonts get the most audience. From the desktop-published stuff I have seen, and from the TT fonts I have that were done by quick conversions, I know why so many of these DTP documents look so bad. Speedo fonts look totally professional, even when you use them in a simple application that takes advantage of Speedo GDOS. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 34 Tue Feb 08, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 22:07 EST Al, Ahhh... you admit that it would be nice to make your own custom Speedo font? Say a company logo font? :) --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 35 Wed Feb 09, 1994 STEVE-J [DrHfuhruhurr] at 05:21 EST PG.MUSIC - I'll try and find out. I think one of them is part of a commercial package, though. M.HEBERT1 - If an unlicensed Speedo font editor is released as freeware, then at least there's no damages that Bitstream can collect -- and there ARE people working on such a thing! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 36 Wed Feb 09, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 07:59 EST Steve-J, I don't mind buying commercial packages. Hey, its a business expense for me. Soo... whatever it takes, within _reason_... :) --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 37 Wed Feb 09, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 15:09 EST Steve-J, The question remains whether the actual coding of the fonts is copyright or whether the algorithm that generates the coding is copyright protected. If the coding itself is protected then an editor that ouputs identical code _might_ be a violation. If the editor outputs "Speedo compatible" coding there should be no problem. Captain Billy's Whizbang would be an editor that translates PS Type1, Calamus and Truetype to Speedo. Then there would be a tremendous library available at very low cost ranging from extremely poor to very good quality. A danger exists, at least in my mind, that Bitstream might interpret this as a threat and react by refusing to support Speedo on the Atari platform in the future. The obvious thing for them to do, of course, is port their font styler over to Atari and bring out some variety packs like they do for Truetype. In true Atarian fashion - "Damn the torpedos! Full speed ahead!" 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 38 Fri Feb 11, 1994 G.SIMUNOVICH [G.SIMUNOVICH] at 22:15 EST I'm having a problem printing to my HP LJ4. Printing large point sizes prints messed up characters. The trailing edges are very jagged (about 1/4 inch blocks). Also, when printting with the outline effects it hangs the machines (MultiTos reports a bus error). Anyone have about the same problems, or any ideas? Oh yes, this is with SpeedoGDOS 4.2. SpeedoGDOS 4.0 prints the outlines fine but has other problems (Not enough memory...) and using the laserjet driver that came with 4.0. Thanks, George ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 39 Fri Feb 11, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 22:58 EST George, I use the HP4L "Baby" Laserjet and have no problems under Speedo 4.1 I would suggest using your older Speedo with larger caches. That seemed to cure the problem for me the few times that it happened. 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 40 Sat Feb 12, 1994 B.SEMAAN [BOSEM] at 00:06 EST To any GDOS driver developer, I just received a disk that Atari has labeled 'Speedo GDOS Driver Builder Kit'. It has a couple of object libs and source code for a driver for an HP printer, but _no_ documentation. I'd like to talk with someone who has written any driver for any version of GDOS. Please contact me in email or the Developer's RT. Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 41 Mon Feb 14, 1994 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp] at 17:44 EST Bob, Check with Migraph. They don't read here very often, you'll probably have to call them. As for Paul. regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 42 Mon Feb 14, 1994 D.FREELAND [SAXMAN] at 22:53 EST Bob, Is there a way to update to the most recent version of SGDOS. I currently have 4.0. David ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 43 Tue Feb 15, 1994 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp] at 17:04 EST I will check, how did you obtain Speedo? Did it come with your system? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 44 Tue Feb 15, 1994 AEO.7 [Gregg] at 19:45 EST Ah yes.... what is the upgrade policy for Speedo (& AtariWorks)? I bought the AtariWorks/Speedo package some time ago (and love both) but I really want to make sure I stay 'up to date' on any developments. Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 45 Tue Feb 15, 1994 D.FREELAND [SAXMAN] at 20:00 EST It came with my Falcon that I bought over the summer. David ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 46 Tue Feb 15, 1994 COMPO at 23:43 EST SpeedoGDOS owners interested in upgrading to version 4.2 can order it from COMPO Software. It costs $20.00. Our address is 104 Esplanade Avenue Suite 121, Pacifica, CA, 94044. Our telephone number is 415-355-0869, and our fax is 415-355-0869. Of course, our GEnie address is COMPO, and orders can be made and filled in email. Robert PS - Unless you have COMPO's Speedo Starter Kit, we'll need proof of purchase. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 48 Wed Feb 16, 1994 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp] at 16:49 EST Robert, You beat me to it. :-) I might add that most of the changes in version 4.2 are made to resolve some problems that people using the word processor Papyrus were having. However, just $20 for the latest version is a good investment, too! Linda, Back from Jaguar heaven? Nope, just straddled across the great divide and doing stuff on both sides of our products now. We're adding some people, and I finally got to off-load some duties. :) BTW, nice to see you, too! regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 49 Sat Feb 19, 1994 J.TOWLER1 [John] at 01:06 EST >Message 46 Tue Feb 15, 1994 >COMPO at 23:43 EST > >SpeedoGDOS owners interested in upgrading to version 4.2 can order it >from COMPO Software. It costs $20.00. > Robert, What are the advantages/enhancements to Speedo 4.2? Do you have registered owners of Compo's Starter Kit on file, or would I have to send in some kind of proof of purchase? Is it possible to order Compo's other font packs by email? And one last question: is there anyway to produce smart quotes, en dashes and em dashes, which I understand are in the Speedo font sets, but not accessed by SpeedoGDOS? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 50 Sat Feb 19, 1994 S.NOAH [Stu] at 03:16 EST There seems to be a little confusion here about the heritage of True Type fonts. They were developed by Apple and, through some sort of licence, are used by both Apple and Microsoft. IBM, with OS/2, did not follow Microsofts lead and used Adobe postscript fonts. Does the GDOS have to use one font type exclusively ? My brother's MAC uses both True Type and Postscript and there are several PCs at my work that use windows bitmap fonts, True Type, and Adobe type manager. Couldn't GDOS use Both font styles so that everyone could have what they want ? Stu ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 51 Sat Feb 19, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 04:07 EST Hmm... maybe the CodeHeads could figure out how to use TT fonts and do a 'GDOS addition' that handles them. Yeah... I know. I can dream. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 52 Sat Feb 19, 1994 COMPO at 16:19 EST John - SpeedoGDOS 4.2 is full of bug fixes and optimizations; it changes font IDs to avoid conflicts (which could easily arise with earlier versions); it corrects a bug where the current directory was changed to the SpeedoGDOS font directory; it no longer uses a scratch buffer for effects, so if you've ever gotten the error message 'not enough memory for scratch buffer' well, those days are over. There are some other minor internal changes. In general, it's more stable. And it doesn't use Line-A so it should run better on graphic cards and alternate VDIs. If you bought Speedo Starter Kit and returned your registration card, we've got you in our database. No problem. We only need proof of SpeedoGDOS ownership if you obtained it in another package (Atari's SpeedoGDOS or AtariWorks, or with the Falcon030). We'll always accept orders in email. No problem. SpeedoGDOS doesn't let you access true quotes, or en and em dashes. If you don't like it, use a program that does, like That's Write 3! Thanks, Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 53 Sat Feb 19, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 17:47 EST Robert, How do I prove that I own a Falcon030? (I do.) --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 54 Sat Feb 19, 1994 K.ESTES [Kenne@SFRT] at 22:10 EST >PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 17:47 EST > >Robert, > How do I prove that I own a Falcon030? (I do.) You complain a lot about software conflicts? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 55 Sun Feb 20, 1994 COMPO at 00:15 EST Kevin - If you were to upgrade to SpeedoGDOS 4.2 (you haven't), I would ask you to send us a SpeedoGDOS diskette or page from the manual - or a photocopy of either. Any materials sent to us will be returned. Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 56 Sun Feb 20, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 02:00 EST Or my registering my FalconSpeed? :) I know.... I'll upgrade when I feel the serial support is necessary. :) Same for Speedo. I haven't found a need or reason to upgrade yet. BTW, any info on the 486 FS? --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 57 Sun Feb 20, 1994 S.KAINE at 15:20 EST to Robert of Compo what is your address that I may order the speedgdos upgrade and what is the price of your newsletter font kit? Steve Kaine ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 58 Sun Feb 20, 1994 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 21:42 EST Steve Kaine, This is his address from Cardfile I have: Robert Engberson COMPO Compo 104 Esplanade Avenue Suite 121 Pacifica, CA 94044 Work phone: 415 355 0862 Fax line: 415 355 0869 ~~Brian..Written on Sunday 20 February 1994 at 10:25 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 59 Mon Feb 21, 1994 S.KAINE at 01:06 EST Thanks Brian. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 60 Mon Feb 21, 1994 COMPO at 19:34 EST Steve - Our Newsletter font pack costs $99.95. Our address is 104 Esplanade Avenue Suite 121, Pacifica, California, 94044. Our telephone number is 415-355-0862, and our fax is 415-355-0869. Our GEnie ID is COMPO (we accept orders, questions, comments, and any tidbits of good cheer in email). Thanks, Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 61 Mon Feb 21, 1994 S.KAINE at 23:30 EST Thanks, Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 62 Fri Feb 25, 1994 AEO.7 [Gregg] at 21:27 EST Has anyone else had a problem with Speedo printing out overly fine (almost invisible) lines with the SLM-804? Most fonts look ok on my system but some of the 8-point fonts and ALL thin fonts in Easy Draw are just about unreadable or invisible.... Since large fonts and such print out ok I have to doubt that it's my drum getting tired. Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 63 Sat Feb 26, 1994 J.MEEHAN3 [>> Joe M << ] at 09:16 EST Message 62 Fri Feb 25, 1994 AEO.7 [Gregg] >Has anyone else had a problem with Speedo printing out overly fine >(almost invisible) lines with the SLM-804? Gregg, I would guess it is a problem with "hinting" (correct term?). Not all fonts and drivers convert small point fonts correctly and they have the problem you noted. You won't see the problem with a dot printer since the dots can only get so small. I have heard of the problem being reported with Speedo, but then Speedo has not been used by too many high demanding applications in DTP. >> Joe M << ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 64 Sat Feb 26, 1994 M.HAMILTON5 [SCREECH] at 23:04 EST The opening post says this is the place to discuss the wonders of SpeedoGDOS. Here is my wonder: I wonder how to install it! I just purchased the program and when I run INSTALL.PRG, a window appears that says "Atari Font Installation", but then the computer locks up. This happens with no accessories or autoboots, so I know there's no conflicting software present. I get the same result on my MEGA ST2 and on my 1040STF (MEGA has TOS 1.2 & 2meg, 1040 has TOS 1.0 & 4meg). I suspect a corrupted INSTALL.PRG file. I tried installing it manually, but the manual doesn't say exactly where everything goes, so I couldn't get it to work. Could somebody please either describe where the files need to be installed or upload a working INSTALL.PRG file that I could download? Or any other suggestions to get me going would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 65 Sun Feb 27, 1994 S.KAINE at 01:52 EST Screech... The problem is your TOS version. You have to manually install the fonts and driver.acc and outline fonts.acc. Create a folder named SYS and inside it put the printer driver you need or create another folder for it. Make sure memory.sys and meta.sys are there too. Go to your printer drivers.acc and create an assign.sys file, assign memory.sys line #10 your printer driver line #21 and meta.sys line #31. Put your fonts where you want to and then go to the outline font.acc to create an extend.sys file. both the extend file and assign file will be on C drive. Create the SYS folder on C drive as well. I had the same problem and got most of my help from the guys here. Steve Kaine ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 66 Sun Feb 27, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 04:05 EST Steve, I think this problem with TOS 1.0 and 1.2 is going to continue coming up. Atari's attitude is that they should upgrade to TOS 1.4 - which is advisable anyway. Since you have a working setup how about doing an ASCII upload to the library showing the procedure involved and a copy of your ASSIGN.SYS file. What say? 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 67 Sun Feb 27, 1994 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 09:46 EST Papa, That's a sad attitude for ATARI. I have TOS 2.05 and TOS 1.0. I would never give up TOS 1.0 since too many games for my children works on 1.0. If would be nice for a bug fix to the install so the wife could write the letters on the 1040 while I do more important things like reading and replying on GEnie {grin} on the MSTe. ~~Brian..Written on Sunday 27 February 1994 at 10:21 a.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 68 Sun Feb 27, 1994 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 11:50 EST Screech, AW's install program doesn't like TOS 1.0 & 1.2. So far Atari hasn't done anything to remedy this. There is a fix for the dictionary for 1.0 and 1.2 users in the library however. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 69 Sun Feb 27, 1994 ARCHIVIST [Charlie] at 13:33 EST Brian, to an extent it's a shame, but I think it's pretty understandable. I doubt Microsoft Works will run on an XT with DOS 1 at all, let alone install properly. You just can't maintain backwards compatability forever, and with TOS 1.0 being nearly 10 years old I think it's time to put it behind. OTOH, a simple printed insert with manual installation instructions would solve this 'problem' quite nicely. I do think it's silly that this hasn't been done as it would only be ten minutes work to write it. Charlie/sysop ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 70 Sun Feb 27, 1994 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 16:47 EST Charlie, if ATARI can't make programs compatible with different TOSes why would anyone else. Besides it only a simple install program. Why didn't they menytion it in the manual? ~~Brian..Written on Sunday 27 February 1994 at 05:45 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 71 Sun Feb 27, 1994 TOWNS [John] at 17:25 EST Hmm.. I was working on the Installation program when I left, and I knew about this problem (I was informed by some people at Atari and my superiors were aware of it.), but I didn't get to look at it before I left. The sad thing is that the products work on all TOS revisions, but the installation program doesn't! -- John PS. Don't blame me! I just modified the installation programs to work with the setups that SpeedoGDOS and FontGDOS need to install. I also did the foreign versions as well. But, I didn't write the installation program myself! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 72 Sun Feb 27, 1994 M.HAMILTON5 [SCREECH] at 22:10 EST Steve- Thanks for the installation info. I think I now have it set up properly, except I get some quirks when printing. My printer (Epson Action Printer 5000, 24-pin dot matrix) recommends the LQ-570 driver. When I select LQ-570 and try to print from AtariWorks, the printer paints the page black and the program locks up. However, when I select the FX80 or the Star printer drivers, the printer prints fine (except it looks like 9-pin printing). Any suggestions? Another question: The SpeedoGDOS manual says I should be able to access the SpeedoGDOS fonts from other wordprocessors and drawing programs. Does this include Wordwriter and Pagestream, and if so how do I access the SpeedoGDOS fonts from these programs? Thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 73 Sun Feb 27, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 22:23 EST All, I don't want to get into a rehash of the old TOS issue again. The points I was trying to make is that there is some advantage to be gained by going to TOS 1.4 at the cost of compatibility with some of the older programs (mostly games). More important is the fact that Speedo and AtariWorks _do_ work on TOS 1.0/1.2 machines but the INSTALL.PRG does not. Since there are a lot of people out there who have or will be acquiring these older machines I think it behooves the Atari USER community to come up with an installation routine to aid these people. I am NOT concerned with who is responsible for the bug in the INSTALL.PRG. I AM concerned that these people have access to a proven method for doing the installation. That is why I asked Steve if he could post the procedure he used. Since he has successfully done the procedure he is much more qualified than me to outline the procedure. I am sure that there are several people just as well qualified but Steve was there at the moment. I, for one, firmly believe that the success of a program or a piece of hardware is dependent _not_only_ on developer support but also the level of support USERS give one another! 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 74 Mon Feb 28, 1994 S.KAINE at 00:23 EST Screech... You have run into the infamous BPS (Black Page Syndrome). It is a bug in 1.207 and if you read the previous posts (look in the archives, as well) you will find a lot of gnashing of teeth. Atari is supposed to be working on fixing it. Papa... ok, ok I'll upload what I can. I'll also work on the calendar you ask for, also. Steve Kaine ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 75 Mon Feb 28, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:28 EST John, Once again you add to our insight. You should sit down at the keyboard and write "My Life and Lost Days at Atari." Screech, Only those apps that use GDOS in any form will be able (usually) to use Speedo GDOS and its fonts. WordWriter and PageScream don't use GDOS. Papa, Well said, and said well. Without the constant support of users, we would have a poor community of Atarians. It goes without saying that Atari itself could fal off the face of the globe tomorrow, yet we would soldier on, because we are enthusiasts. (Heck, I owned two Citroens long after the company pulled out of the American market, and that didn't make my enthusiasm for the car diminish one whit.) Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 78 Mon Feb 28, 1994 TOWNS [John] at 13:35 EST One thing I thought of was that is that there is such a lead time for replacing things on a production disk that it is possible that the problem has been fixed and just hasn't been put onto the disks yet. Someone should send some mail to Bob Brodie or Bill Rehbock to see if there is an update to the installation program. If there is, they could upload it to GEnie and you could just replace the new prg with the old prg and away you go! "My Life and Lost Days at Atari" hmm.. Interesting title. Anyone has any other titles? Boy, do I have some stories.. ;-) -- John PS. I probably would never write a book (or anything else) about this. I doubt it would sell very well and writing books is not something I have a great deal of interest in. I'll still to writing code ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 81 Tue Mar 01, 1994 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 00:37 EST Screech, For the lockup problem. Do you have Warp 9 version <3.8? If so, you will have to disable the screen acceleration before printing. The black page is a bug in AW 1.207 with the higher quality printer drivers. No idea when Atari will get around to sending out updates. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 82 Tue Mar 01, 1994 W.HYNES at 05:56 EST I read all the archives on SpeedoGDOS and thought I saw one post about the old Publisher ST NOT working with SpeedoGDOS. (I'm pretty sure Pub ST 2 was written to not use it.) Has anyone got it to work with the old Pub ST? Thanks, -Bill- ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 83 Tue Mar 01, 1994 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 08:27 EST Looks like I should dig out my old copy of Publisher ST. Do you know what version you want tested? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 84 Tue Mar 01, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:33 EST John, Just get out a tape recorder and talk into it! Papa, Wow, someone who KNOWS that Cits could do that! Yep, I did in fact drive 'em on 3 wheels to show off! Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 85 Tue Mar 01, 1994 TOWNS [John] at 19:33 EST I seem to remember that Publisher ST from TimeWorks will not work with SpeedoGDOS. The reason is that it used this wacky scheme to get the widths of characters that wasn't really supported by GDOS. That stuff broke on SpeedoGDOS. Anyway, I believe there are more current versions of PublisherST that will work with SpeedoGDOS. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 86 Tue Mar 01, 1994 AEO.7 [Gregg] at 20:01 EST Hi John, on my MegaSTe (TOS 2.06) I was able to get the original TimeWork's DTP to work with Speedo... at least for the most part. The text was totally messed up in the 'show full page' mode but it did load, display, and print out just fine for me. Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 87 Tue Mar 01, 1994 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 20:10 EST Bill, send email to ABC.SOLN to answer your question. They are disbributors of Publisher ST. I don't think Speedo can run on it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 88 Tue Mar 01, 1994 M.HAMILTON5 [SCREECH] at 23:41 EST Thanks Steve & Wayne and all others that have offered guidance in the midst of my SpeedoGDOS/AtariDoesn'tWorks installation trauma. As far as the lockup problem: I disabled Warp9 (and all other autoboots and accessories) and I still got lockup on printing. I still got the black page syndrome. Tell me if I have a grasp of the situation: I just spent $100 on a commercially released software package that has a bug that renders it virtually useless and the developers are currently making no efforts to resolve the problem, but they might work on it if they find the time?!!? I certainly hope I am incorrect here, but this is the story I have gathered from all the previous postings (including one post from the author of the program). Somebody please tell me I missed something! Another problem I have encountered: After printing a worthless 9-pin quality printout (using the FX-80 or Star drivers), the text on the screen becomes garbled and I can't find any way to get the text back. This happens without Warp9 or any autoboots or accessories installed. I ordered my TOS 1.4 chips today, so I guess that's my contribution to resolving these Speedo/AW problems. Somebody please tell me that someone is working on the black page syndrome. Thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 89 Tue Mar 01, 1994 CBARRON at 23:44 EST Help, I copied all three disks HD disks from the bitstream WP6 PACK *.93,*.spd,*.tdf,*.cfg renaming the *.cfg to indicate disks. *.93 are all the same so I saved one copy. How do I easily install all these files into speedogdos. Also copied all the speedo gdos supplied fonts into the same directory renaming bx0000756.spd and ok*.tdf from the atari distribution, same file names occur on the bitstream disks. Now are the files the same font? What do I need to do to 'extend' extend.sys, to handle this entire now 4 megs of font files. Will have to change the font directory after this 'extending' is done. Thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 90 Wed Mar 02, 1994 STEVE-J [DrHfuhruhurr] at 00:09 EST BRIAN.H - Actually, I was quite shocked when I heard that an estimated 65% of all ST game software will even work on the Falcon030 (even if some need Backward or Magi to work)! I though AT MOST it would be well under 50%! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 91 Wed Mar 02, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 04:41 EST Screech, I think someone has already said this, but the simplest solution at the moment is to get hold of AW 1.2 and quit using the more recent release. If you don't have a dealer nearby who's willing and able to do this, let us know and we'll find some other way. gnox ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 92 Wed Mar 02, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:26 EST Carl, You don't need the TDF (typeface definition) files. Speedo GDOS makes no use of them. Usually, fonts with the same filename are identical, although Compo points out that this is can be a problem sometimes. You don;t do anything to extend.sys, since the font-installation routine in the DA that comes with Speedo creates the extend.sys for you. All you do is put the fonts in the same folder as your current ones, run the DA (it's a PRG also, if you want), select the fonts from the menu, and that's it. Don't bother setting the width tables or the sizes unless you have an old app that requires this. (AWorks, for example, does not.) Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 93 Thu Mar 03, 1994 CBARRON at 01:58 EST Al It is interesting that there are TDF files in the speedogdos distribution. That is not the problem, as I found diskspace for them all. I do have two different VAG rounded fonts. FINDDUP on the directory of fonts, shows me no duplicate files. Sizes are the same, filestamp dates are different. no biggie the system is working. I should RTFM more often, but with the manuals normally supplied by Atari there is no need. Nice to be able to read HD diskettes. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 94 Thu Mar 03, 1994 W.HYNES at 03:47 EST Darla, I have Publisher ST ver 1.11. Lou, Thanks, -Bill- ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 95 Thu Mar 03, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 05:55 EST Can anyone tell me what the actual dpi ratings of the various Speedo printer drivers is? I know the deskjet and laserjet are 300. I believe the Star NB15 is 180 and the NEC-P is 360 but what about the FX-80 and bubblejets? Do bubblejets do a true 360 dpi or is it an offset double print like 360 dpi on 24 pin printers? 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 96 Thu Mar 03, 1994 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 09:04 EST I will see what version I have and check later today. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 97 Thu Mar 03, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:57 EST Carl, The TDFs are there because some DOS apps make use of them. I zipped them and put them aside. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 98 Fri Mar 04, 1994 B.SEMAAN [BOSEM] at 00:23 EST Charlie, I doubt anything would run on an XT with DOS 1.x (no hard drive support, no directories, 8 sector tracks, etc., etc.). In fact, I remember being told what great timing I had purchasing my first PC because DOS 1.1 had just been released, enabling me to use those great new double-sided drives with a whopping 320K storage space. Screech, Are you using the Star NX driver? If so, you should be using the Star NB24-15 driver instead. Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 99 Fri Mar 04, 1994 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 01:50 EST Papa, The BubbleJet driver is honest 360x360 dpi. Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 10:55 PM Mountain Time Thursday, March 3, 1994 ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 100 Fri Mar 04, 1994 B.SEMAAN [BOSEM] at 04:14 EST Papa Mike, The FX-80 driver is 120 dpi. I don't know about the Bubblejet. Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 101 Fri Mar 04, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 05:14 EST Mike Allen, Thanks for the dope on the bubblejets. That's one down - now to find out about those 9-pins. Are they single res, double res, triple res or quad res? I suspect double res 120 X 144 or quad(?) 240 X 216. 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 102 Fri Mar 04, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:28 EST Double res, Papa. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 103 Fri Mar 04, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 19:50 EST Bob 'n' Al, Thanks for the dope on the 9-pins - does that apply to the Star NX as well as the FX-80? Am I correct on the 24 pins - Star NB15-24=180 dpi and NEC-P=360 dpi? BTW - The Panasonic KX-P1123 is actually made by Star Micronics. I discovered that by accident when I got mine back from repair with the test print showing a Star Micronics header. I played with buttons and was able to reproduce it. Sometimes I regret having sold that puppy. 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 104 Sat Mar 05, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:23 EST Papa, Yes, for the Star as well as the Epson. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 105 Sat Mar 05, 1994 B.CONNOLLY1 [Bud] at 17:04 EST >Atari-ST RoundTable >Category 14, Topic 35 >Message 82 Tue Mar 01, 1994 >W.HYNES at 05:56 EST > >I read all the archives on SpeedoGDOS and thought I saw one post >about the old Publisher ST NOT working with SpeedoGDOS. (I'm pretty >sure Pub ST 2 was written to not use it.) Has anyone got it to work >with the old Pub ST? > Thanks, > -Bill- >---------- > ABC Solutions stated a few months back that GST was working on an upgrade to Publisher ST that would work with SpeedoGDOS. But, I haven't heard a peep since. I hope it does make it out. Darlah, I think the manuals clearly state that Publisher ST will not work with SpeedoGDOS or FontGDOS. But hey, if you prive that wrong, let us all know. Bud ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 106 Sat Mar 05, 1994 AEO.7 [Gregg] at 19:09 EST Maybe I did something right... or very wrong. Still, though there are some problems I WAS able to get TW-DTP to work with SpeedoGDOS.... Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 107 Sat Mar 05, 1994 M.HAMILTON5 [SCREECH] at 23:01 EST Papa, gnox, Steve Kaine- Thanks for all the advice on SpeedoGDOS/AW installation. I was able to get a copy of AW ver 1.2 and I installed my TOS 1.4 chips. Life is much more pleasant now. AW is working great and no more BPS! However, I think I am seeing some conflicts between AtariWorks and Neodesk 2.0. When I try to launch AW from Neodesk it bombs sometimes, but when I launch from the Atari desktop, AW runs every time. Also, with my old TOS, I launched Neod sk 2.0 from Superboot using Startgem. Now I get an error that says Startgem is not compatible with my TOS 1.4. Is there a later version of Startgem I should be using or is there some other way I should be launching Neodesk 2.0 from Superboot or is it the Neodesk 2.0 that is incompatible with TOS 1.4? (I know these TOS questio ns are a little off topic, but it was this topic that led me to upgrade my TOS, so I thought I'd try to get some answers here). A sincere thank you to all those who helped get me going with Speedo/AW. It looks like all I have to iron out are a few wrinkles with my new TOS 1.4, and I'll be back in business again. Screech ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 108 Sat Mar 05, 1994 S.HAMMOND [Steve H.] at 23:57 EST Screech - With TOS 1.4 you do not need to use Startgem - in fact to quote from the Neodesk 3 manual "Startgem will not work with TOS 1.4 or higher". Steve Hammond ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 109 Sun Mar 06, 1994 S.KAINE at 00:02 EST screech... first of all, you really need to upgrade your Neodesk to 3.2. second, you don't need to run startgem, maybe I should say, you shouldn't run startgem with tos 1.4, since that was one of the fixes. That is, it will run GEM programs from the auto folder. I'm not sure of the set up. Maybe someone else knows? steve Akaine ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 110 Sun Mar 06, 1994 S.KAINE at 00:38 EST screech... The current neodesk version is more like 3.03 (too many versions to remember.):) steve kaine ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 111 Sun Mar 06, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 01:09 EST Screech, Wow, you have an old copy of NeoDesk. You need 3.0x, or you can wait a month (or maybe less) and get 4.0. But 2.0 needs to go. :) And the two Steves are right, also. TOS 1.04 does not need Startgem. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 112 Sun Mar 06, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 03:09 EST Screech, STARTGEM or HEADSTART are for pre-TOS 1.4 machines. You can set things up to start AtariWorks anytime you click on an .STW. Likewise you can start up a graphics package by clicking on .PI? or .IMG or whatever. You get into that part of the system by selecting a program in a directory window (don't run the program - just select it) then go to install application under the Options menu on the Atari Desktop. Enter the appropriate file extension and Save Desktop. You may also be able to do that with NeoD v.2 but I'm not sure. I know versions 3 onward have that capability. Version 3 corrected some incompatibilities and fixed some bugs. Probably would be worthwhile to upgrade your NeoD also. 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 113 Sun Mar 06, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:26 EST Steve, Close! It's 3.04. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 114 Sun Mar 06, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 13:48 EST Screech, Look in the SuperBoot configuration windows for the option to setup SuperBoot to work with TOS 1.4. There is an option to check whether you are using TOS 1.4 or not. Lorne.... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 115 Sun Mar 06, 1994 P.BITHELL [PFLIP] at 20:59 EST SCREECH, You don't need startgem for TOS 1.4 or above, just run supercs.prg and on the appropriate page click on the -TOS 1.4 or higher- button and you'll have no problems... PFLIP ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 116 Mon Mar 07, 1994 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 10:45 EST I find it real hard to believe (not really) that Atari wouldn't be adverse tp sending people with the problem program version a previous version that will work properly. That would seem to be the simplest solution to the problem. We could wait forever for them to fix it. Steve ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 117 Mon Mar 07, 1994 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp] at 17:25 EST Papa, No secret to finding out about the printer drivers for SpeedoGDOS. All you have to do is run the DRIVERS.ACC, or in my case, DRIVERS.PRG. Click on the printer driver you want information on, and then click on the configure box. It will show you what the rez is for each driver. For example, the SMM804 driver is 160x72, Canon Bubble Jet is 360x360, FX-80 driver is 120x144, LQ-570 is 360x360, HP PaintJet is 180x180 and 8 colors, HP DeskJet 500 is 300x300, HP LaserJet is 300x300, NEC is 360x360, Okimate 20 is 120x144 and 8 colors, Star NB24-15 is 180x180, Star NX-1000 is 120x144, and Straight FAX is 203x196. All of the above rezes are from the final print quality setting. If you use draft, your mileage may vary. :) regards, Bob Brodie ` ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 118 Mon Mar 07, 1994 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp] at 18:13 EST Screech, The gang at Gribnif has another program to let you auto boot into NeoDesk, it's called STARTPRG.PRG. Another option is to have NeoDesk as an installed application that auto-boots from the desktop. The best option is to upgrade to the latest version of NeoDesk and ask them about it in their category. :) Now, did I understand you correctly? Your black page symptoms went away with a TOS change???? regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 119 Fri Mar 11, 1994 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 00:15 EST Does anyone know how to get a 'degree' symbol in AtariWorks? I am using Bitstream Charter. Is it in there? If not... what font does? Thanks! ================> Sam_030 ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 120 Fri Mar 11, 1994 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 04:27 EST Sam, If you are using TOS 2.06, 3.06 or 4.xx, hold down the alt key and type in 248 on the KEYPAD. When you release the alt key, the degree symbol should appear. If you are using an earlier TOS, download ACCENT.LZH, file #21311, which is an auto folder prg that allows you to do the same thing. There are a lot of interesting characters hidden above the normal character set that are accessable with this technique. Actually there are way more than the normal 256 normal ASCII possible characters in each Speedo font set. Bitstream Charter has 564 characters, I believe. I wish AW would allow us to access all the characters in a set. (I really want the "yukkie" face!) Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 2:01 AM Mountain Time Friday, March 11, 1994 ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 121 Fri Mar 11, 1994 J.MEEHAN3 [>> Joe M << ] at 05:12 EST Sam, The closest thing I could come up with is the use of an "O" in a smaller size and in super-script. Not very good, but it works. >> Joe M << ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 122 Fri Mar 11, 1994 COMPO at 05:39 EST Sam - Charter uses the Bitstream International Character Set, same as most all Speedo fonts. Try ASCII 248 for the degree symbol. Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 123 Fri Mar 11, 1994 COMPO at 17:27 EST Mike - There are 563 characters in the Bitstream International Character Set. Most fonts have them all. If you want to access these characters and your word processor doesn't allow it, might I suggest another word processor... for example, That's Write 3 lets you access any character. You know the "yukkie face!" Ah, the hidden jewel in the BICS! By the way, if anybody wants to see this character, you'll need That's Write 3 - it's Index 563. Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 124 Sat Mar 12, 1994 J.KISTNER [JK] at 02:46 EST I had been using G-Plus for quite a while but have now switched to Speedo. I just tried Timeworks DP for the first time since the change and it did not print correctly. It printed too "tall" and I did not have all the fonts on line. Anybody know what I should do to fix this ???? ---JK--- ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 125 Sat Mar 12, 1994 M.MASTALER [Mike] at 03:11 EST Insted of ACCENT, I downloaded " EXTAKEY " or EXTAKEY2 to get all of the character symbols. It is an .ACC so you can use only when you want it. Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 126 Mon Mar 14, 1994 B.MAUGER1 at 01:54 EST hi ho all! I am new here so bare with me. I just got the "Word Perfect" fonts.... My qustion is is the TDF files nessasary????? can you just use the .SDO files??? Thanks for your hael! Music Midi Man! aka Bruce ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 127 Mon Mar 14, 1994 COMPO at 03:32 EST Bruce - The .TDF files are part of the Speedo specification (and thus are included) but SpeedoGDOS doesn't use them. All you need are the .SPD files (which are the font outlines). Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 128 Mon Mar 14, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:44 EST Bruce, The TDFs aren't needed except for That's Write 3, as far as I know. Save them anyway. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 129 Mon Mar 14, 1994 COMPO at 21:34 EST Al - Actually, That's Write 3 doesn't use the .TDF files, either. Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 130 Mon Mar 14, 1994 R.NELSON48 [Grouch (:{] at 22:54 EST B.MAUGER1, Do you have 2 way video? Why exactly do you want us to "bare" with you? Is it a cult thing? BARE (adj. & adv.) 1. without clothing or covering; 2. exposed, undisguised; 3. only just sufficient. Couldn't find "hael" in my dictionary. (:{ Grouch. -------------------------------------- Consider that your initiation and take it with a (Grin, no insult intended, just fooling around) No, you don't need those TDF's. Speedo will work fine without them. They are a DOS deal, I think. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 131 Tue Mar 15, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 01:16 EST Robert, Serves me right for munging the TW3 installation. I lost the AL.ZIP you sent in the crash of a partition, and assumed TW3 needed TDFs. Can you send it again? Thanks. BTW, I am super-impressed by many of the aspects of TW3 so far, although I don't like the slowness of some operations. The manual, however, is a singular triumph, and Compo should be proud. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 132 Tue Mar 15, 1994 C.S.SMETON [NewSTar Tech] at 06:23 EST Al, Robert, Bruce, The .TDF files are not used currently by Speedo GDOS applications, but there is a VDI call defined to read the information in a TDF file into memory for use by an application. Most likely the need for doing this would be in a program that would be able to apply strange effects to a Speedo Font or maybe a conversion utility. For now you can probably get by without the .TDF files, but keep them on a disk in case they are ever needed. One other use for the .TDF files would be for a program that had a more intelligent font selector than the one currently used by Atari Works. AW just lists each Speedo font installed. A more intelligent font selector would recognize fonts by their family name, style (bold, italic, bold-italic, etc.) such that when you selected the bold text effect, it actually used the bold version of the Speedo font, instead of applying a bold effect to the normal version of the Speedo font in the same family. Charles ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 133 Tue Mar 15, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:47 EST Thanks, Charles. One day we'll find something you *don't* know. :) Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 134 Tue Mar 15, 1994 COMPO at 15:55 EST Al - No sweat. The file's on its way. I'm glad you like That's Write, but I'm quite surprised that you find it slow... please elaborate! Perhaps in the That's Write topic, no? Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 135 Tue Mar 15, 1994 COMPO at 17:13 EST Charles - That's Write 3 has font and style selectors exactly like what you described. However, we have additional things like disk caching/memory resident status flags, so we use our own font configuration files (.PF) rather than the .TDFs. Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 136 Fri Mar 18, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 01:33 EST BOSEM, I agree with Bob that your printout offset is probably due to dipswitch setting on the DJ. The rightmost dipswitch in the left bank should be up to turn off "skip over perf" (!? say what??). I haven't found a tractor feed for my DJ's so I leave it off all the time . Re drivers for HP500C, 550C, etc. I think there is a market out there for someone who can write them. Also for the HP4 600 dpi lasers and the new Star (SJ48?) color thermal printer. Umm, I should include the Canon color bubblejet in that list. AtariWorks won't use color but I do believe that Papyrus has that option. Kandinsky, the shareware GEM graphic editor, has color capability but you have to export to a non-Speedo program to get the color printout. I am personally not too enthusiastic about color printing - I'm still looking for the "perfect" grays (at 300 dpi? Fat chance!) - but the whole industry is gearing toward color. With Speedo poised to be the Atari font standard for the forseeable future there will be more programs using it and they will need color printer drivers. As far as the "bleed" goes. I tried several different papers with varying results. Honolulu is relatively humid which affects the degree of "fuzzies" I get. The rougher textured papers seem to mask the bleed better than the smooth textured papers. Coated papers seem to produce less bleed but longer drying times and more tendency to smear. HP's ink or Shaeffer Skrip for refills works much better for me than the oil based inks sold by some suppliers. The oil base is more permanent but tends to bleed through to the other side of the paper making doublesided printouts impractical. For draft work the common 20# copier/laser stock is adequate. For copier masters I use Hammermill 28# long grain. For quality correspondence a 25% cotton bond 24# seems to work best. There is one point in the Deskjet's favor over laser printers that I have never seen anyone mention. Its output has a "warmth" that laser printers lack. One of those intangible things but looking at identical printouts for Deskjet and Laserjet you can see the difference. Laser for clarity and sharpness, Deskjet for nice soft, warm fuzzies ;-) 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 137 Fri Mar 18, 1994 J.MEEHAN3 [>> Joe M << ] at 04:54 EST Papa, You can get great color with very nice grays today, but it will cost you. The printers are 8,000 to 35,000 and you can expect to pay from 35 cents to about $1.50 per page. >> Joe M << ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 138 Fri Mar 18, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 21:13 EST Joe, Doesn't quite fit my definition of "perfect grays" - gotta be lino quality at dot matrix price ;-) 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 139 Sat Mar 19, 1994 B.MAUGER1 at 02:02 EST A hearty thanks to one and all whoeplied to my query! Bruce! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 140 Sat Mar 19, 1994 M.EASTER [Mike] at 06:34 EST Papa - re "skip over perf" (!? say what??) :-) I think the DJ "designers" decided, "The bad news is that you can't print on the bottom 1/2" of your page. The good (!?) news is that we have a switch and a command that will also prevent you from printing on the top 1/2" as well. If you're going to have a deficiency, it might as well be symmetrical." Mike Easter ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 141 Sat Mar 19, 1994 M.MASTALER [Mike] at 16:13 EST Hate to digress, but can someone spell out how to get the HP DJ500 to print on the top and Bottom 1/2" ? It also seems when i use AW, that I MUST put in a blank line for the first line, or AW "cuts off" barely the top part of the first line. Has anyone else had that problem ? Mike ' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 142 Sat Mar 19, 1994 J.MEEHAN3 [>> Joe M << ] at 18:10 EST Message 141 Sat Mar 19, 1994 M.MASTALER [Mike] > Hate to digress, but can someone spell out how to get the HP DJ500 >to print on the top and Bottom 1/2" It don't. In text mode (not used when using GDOS) it will squeeze in the extra lines, but it won't work in Graphic mode. > It also seems when i use AW, that I MUST put in a blank line for the > first line, or AW "cuts off" barely the top part of the first line. I have not had the problem, but it sounds like an AW fault not a DeskJet problem. AW is trying to print where it can't. The driver needs to be worked on. I would guess it would only be a problem with some fonts and point sizes. >> Joe M << ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 143 Sat Mar 19, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 18:31 EST Mike's E & M, At least HP is consistent about it - what I don't quite grasp is why they refer to it in the manual as "skip over perf" - did I miss the tractor feed option for fanfold paper or did someone at HP fail to get the word that the Deskjet is sheet feed? I use either 1" or .75" margins all around on the HP and don't have a problem with cutting off text. If I am using headers and footers I set top and bottom margins to 1" and print the H & F's at 0.5". The only time I have seen it cut text is if I set margins to less than 0.5 inch. 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 144 Sat Mar 19, 1994 P.WALDING [Phil Walding] at 20:09 EST Papa ... I scratched my head over that on the Brother laser manual also, where one of the settings is for 'skip perforation'. Haven't seen the means to hook tractor feed into the bins yet . ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 145 Sun Mar 20, 1994 M.MASTALER [Mike] at 03:08 EST Thanks Papa, That's what I *do*; I use about .5 of an inch on the sides. Like the old joke, "Doc, it hurts when I raise my arm" doc: "Well then, DON'T raise your arm " ! Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 146 Sun Mar 20, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 18:18 EST Mike, Is the "cutting off" of the first line consistent on all your printouts including second and succeeding pages? Which version of AW are you running, 1.2 or 1.207? Does the same thing happen with headers? You probably mentioned some of that already but I gets fergitful. 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 147 Mon Mar 21, 1994 M.MASTALER [Mike] at 02:17 EST Papa, ...Just the first page; me's not smart enough to think or type more than one page :) seriously, it happens just on the first line, usually when I go back and put in a largerpoint size header, or something. BTW, should I always have as a default, my 8.5X11 sheet set at 00.00" at the top and bottom ? I know you said to make at least 1/2" on the left and right margins. Oh, I have AW 1.207 . Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 148 Mon Mar 21, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 03:44 EST Mike, Aha!! Your top and bottom margins should be 1.0" by default _or_ whatever they were the last time you exited AtariWorks. If they are set to 0.0" it is only natural for the DJ to cut part of the first line - it can't print within 0.25" of the top or bottom of the sheet. Reset your top and bottom margins to 0.5" then save the document again. That should correct the problem. Have you had any problem with BPS on the Deskjet? 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 149 Mon Mar 21, 1994 F-D-PERCIVAL [Fred P.] at 07:20 EST Mike, I have a DeskJet+, and after a lot of fiddling I ended up with this page setup in Atari Works (perf skip is turned off): Page Width 8.28 Page Height 10.63 (Minimum) Top Margin 0.20 These settings seem to allow Works to print to the physical maximum size allowed by my printer. I was unable to set the page size alone to prevent the problems with the top line you are having. But setting a top margin puts that line back on the paper, and Atari Works still shows page breaks accurately for me. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 150 Tue Mar 22, 1994 M.MASTALER [Mike] at 03:44 EST Thanks Fred and Papa; will re-set AW. NO, I haven't had BPS yet with the HP DJ 500; but I did have it, oh, I think 2 times with my Panasonic Kx P1123; once in Med. and once in High resolution. Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 151 Wed Mar 23, 1994 S.FOSKETT [Lancer] at 19:51 EST I'm starting to hear murmers of SpeedoGDOS 4.2... As a user of 4.1, I'll be very interested in 4.2! Perhaps Atari could tell us all how they will run the upgrade policy for 4.1 to 4.2? I'd LIKE a simpla patch to be posted personally... Also, when should we look for 4.2? And what's new in it? thanks, .s. (happy with Speedo and AtariWorks!) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 152 Thu Mar 24, 1994 COMPO at 18:00 EST Lancer - SpeedoGDOS 4.2 is available for $20.00 from COMPO Software. You can order it through email (with a credit card) or by writing to COMPO Software, 104 Esplanade Avenue Suite 121, Pacifica, CA, 94044. You can order by telephone, we're on 415-355-0862 and our fax is 415-355-0869. SpeedoGDOS 4.2 is full of bug fixes and optimizations; it changes font IDs to avoid conflicts (which could easily arise with 4.1); it corrects a bug where the current directory was changed to the SpeedoGDOS font directory; it no longer uses a scratch buffer for effects, so if you've ever gotten the error message 'not enough memory for scratch buffer' well, those days are over. There are some other minor internal changes. In general, it's just more stable. Thanks, Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 153 Fri Mar 25, 1994 B.SEMAAN [BOSEM] at 08:20 EST Lancer, Unless you are using a GDOS app that needs Speedo 4.2, don't bother with it. The differences are very subtle and for the most part transparent at the user level. Also it does not get along well with Warp9 (3.8) in combination with Atari Works. But, if you just have to have it and are a registered commercial developer, it is in the developer's RT lib. Otherwise, Compo sells Speedo 4.2. Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 154 Sat Mar 26, 1994 M.MASTALER [Mike] at 03:15 EST R. Compo..... I haven't gotten info yet on your SpeedoGDOS fonts that you offer; is that new catalog ready yet ? I've got $money$ burnin in my pocket :) Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 155 Sat Mar 26, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 19:28 EST Does anyone know of a Font Editor for GEM bitmapped fonts that will load in a bitmapped IMG or Degas file and let you convert that to a font character? Fontz! Doesn't seem to be able to help me here. --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 156 Sun Mar 27, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 04:40 EST Kevin, Megatype will let you load in an IMG bitmap which you can then trace to create an outline font character. This has to be done one character at a time and is quite a bit of work. Megatype fonts can be converted to Calamus CFN's which you can use to generate GDOS bitmap fonts by means of C-Font from Compo. Another alternative might be to download a Calamus font that is similar to what you want then simply convert it with C-Font. It will probably need a bit of touching up with Fontkit but it will then be usable in any GDOS or Speedo application. 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 157 Sun Mar 27, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 10:20 EST Papa, I _think_ Kevin was looking for a way to convert bitmap graphic files to screen fonts, the kind that Warp 9 can use, not outline fonts. (I don't know of any way to do that myself.) gnox ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 158 Sun Mar 27, 1994 P.MORALES1 [Pat] at 11:14 EST Kevin You don't say what kind of fonts you want, but you seem to imply GDOS. There is an OLD (so compatibility may be an issue!) Michtron program, HyperFont, which will let you load an IMG file. Unfortunately, you still have to create the font by hand. But unlike other GDOS font creators, you do create an outline and the program will output the created font at any specified point size(s). I doubt that the program is still available anywhere. Except I have it and don't use it any more so I am more than willing to donate it to a good cause if you think it is what you are looking for. Pat ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 159 Sun Mar 27, 1994 S.FOSKETT [Lancer] at 19:32 EST >SpeedoGDOS 4.2 is available for $20.00 from COMPO Software. But I OWN 4.1... I know $20 isn't much as far as upgrade costs go, but Speedo 4.1 cost about that much alone... I had THOUGHT Atari Corp (who sold me SpeedoGDOS 4.1) would offer some sort of simple upgrade policy... IS SpeedoGDOS an Atari product? A Compo product? A Bitstream product? >SpeedoGDOS 4.2 is full of bug fixes and optimizations I had heard that 4.2 allows you to use the X11 Bitstream fonts. Is this true? And what exactly IS Compo Software? Is it related to/owned by Atari? thanks, .s. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 160 Sun Mar 27, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 20:48 EST Papa, This is a custom music font for PG Music. (True Type) I'm trying to convert it so that I can put the Notation into the Atari versions of our programs. Gnox, No. I'm looking for a way to create the GDOS fonts. I _WISH_ there was a way to just directly convert the True Type font to Speedo format. Right now, I'm wasting gobs of time converting the TrueType characters to GEM Metafiles, and cooking up my 'own' outline font method to display the 'Metafile' based font. Yuck. Pat, Will it load GEM metafile outlines? :) --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 161 Sun Mar 27, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 21:32 EST Kevin, Until _someone_ comes out with a Speedo font editor it looks like the only way is what you are already doing. It might be a marketable commodity in its own right both as a GEM metafile and as GDOS bitmap in an assortment of sizes. Get ahold of the folks at MegaType. They were supposed to be working on a Truetype to ECF conversion utility for their Font Designer program. Once you have the ECF it can be converted to Calamus CFN and then via C-Font to GDOS bitmaps. MegaType PO Box 645 South Bend, IN 46624 (219) 288-7468 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 162 Sun Mar 27, 1994 J.KORB at 23:10 EST Has anyone found a problem with SpeedoGDOS 4.2? I have been using Easy Draw with SpeedoGDOS in the past with excellent results. Recently I upgraded to SpeedoGDOS version 4.2. Now my Easy Draw output program bombs about 85% of the time. I thought that it was something else, but after spending almost a whole afternoon I traced it to the new SpeedoGDOS. After going back to the original version I have had no more problems. Has anyone else seen this problem? Jim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 163 Mon Mar 28, 1994 R.CARPENTE18 [Bob C.] at 00:54 EST Papa, Someone will come out with a Speedo editor (or font converter) when Bitstream lets us have the Speedo font format! I know people who are interested in writing such a beast (myself included). However, Bitstream has made it clear that they're not giving out the format (even if they could be persuaded, I doubt it'd be at a price an Atari developer could afford). If they'd only give out the Atari encoded format (doesn't work on their precious PCs), we'd all be satisfied. I'm sure that a TrueType (or Type 1) to Speedo converter would help get Speedo more widely accepted. Bob Carpenter ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 165 Mon Mar 28, 1994 P.NEREO [Philip] at 01:40 EST Jim - Speedo 4.2 apparently puts the font names in a different place than 4.1, or names them diferently or something. I found that my Wordflair documents can no longer find the right Speedo fonts when I bring them up. I get messages saying - Can't find Swiss 721; Can't find Calligraphic 421; etc, even though all these Speedo fonts are loaded. Apparently 4.2 loads them into memory in a different place than 4.1. (I know this is a hopelessly muddled explanation to someone who really understands these things!). Perhaps the Easy Draw output program can't handle the fonts not being where they were supposed to be when you saved the document with 4.1, and so bombs away. Have you tried outputting some documents created with 4.2? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 166 Mon Mar 28, 1994 COMPO at 03:04 EST Lancer - SpeedoGDOS is a product of Atari Corporation. COMPO Software is a privately held corporation; with our branches in Europe, we've been developing and publishing Atari software for almost a decade. We also distribute Atari's SpeedoGDOS as part of our Speedo Starter Kit, and we distribute fonts from the Bitstream Typeface Library in Bitstream Speedo and PostScript Type 1 formats. SpeedoGDOS costs $64.95 from Atari, or is available in our Speedo Starter Kit for $59.95 (these are SRPs). Atari made the decision to charge for the SpeedoGDOS 4.2 update. COMPO Software is distributing it solely as a service to SpeedoGDOS users. There are no new capabilities in SpeedoGDOS 4.2 - it still uses Bitstream Speedo and GEM bitmap fonts. Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 167 Mon Mar 28, 1994 CBARRON at 03:29 EST Kevin, you have a problem. I don't know of one program to do it but if you know the specs, of the font, and can create the bit image data. It is not a HUGE programming job. You might use an auto tracer to create metafiles of individual chararcters, it that is what you are doing. Better would be to create a gdos bitmapped file from a strip of bitmaps. If you have it for one dpi, FONTZ would create another font file at a different dpi. then a quick edit [Hopefully] with a gdos font editor and its done. The big problem is creating the headers and a bitmap. Got any old-style gdos docs arround? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 168 Mon Mar 28, 1994 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 03:48 EST Since Atari isn't supporting the computer end of things now, Compo is offering the bug fix to SpeedoGDOS (4.2). $20.00 for a bug fix is a little much. Now there are more bugs for them to charge you another $20.00 to fix. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 169 Mon Mar 28, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 04:54 EST Jim, If I remember correctly BOSEM reported some compatibility problems between Speedo 4.2 and certain programs. Version 4.2 seems to have been created to accomodate the "enhanced" features available in some of the newer programs. Robert at Compo could probably fill you in on that aspect. I prefer to use MyDraw or Kandinsky over EZ-Draw. Both of them can import EZ-Draw files and are easier to use. They are also fully compatible with Speedo including access to ALL the fonts (not just the first few). Both of them are in the library. Bob, I have heard rumblings that the ST Club in Jolly Old Blighty is working on decoding the Speedo font algorithms. Bitstream is not likely to let go of it cheaply - if at all! Nothing prevents someone with the knowledge, time and compulsive desire to do some reverse engineering to figure it out. I am more inclined to think that someone will figure out how to use the font scaling engine to handle their own algorithms. As for converting Truetype and Postscript to Speedo - whatever is good out there is already available in Speedo but at a price. The same is true of _good_ Truetype and Postscript faces. There are a lot of autotraced "knockoff" fonts available for the downloading but their quality ranges from mediocre to downright horrible. 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 170 Mon Mar 28, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 07:46 EST CBARRON, Since it isn't too huge, would you mind doing it? 1st one that works well gets a prize. I decided to quit wasting my time for now & just get back into the _main_ program that I SHOULD be spending more time on. Not doing stupid font converters that SHOULD be available if Atari weren't too cheap to get TT instead of Speedo. --Kevin If nobody does it, I will *eventually* do it, but it has to wait indefinitely. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 171 Mon Mar 28, 1994 STEVE-J [DrHfuhruhurr] at 08:04 EST R.CARPENTE18 - There are also a few 'hackers' working on reverse-engineering the Speedo format (and are doing pretty well at it, from what I've heard). There MAY be a TT/PS/etc.->Speedo converter (and MAYBE even font editor!) available in the near future -- it'll just be illegal! Incidentally, some hackers are also working on a TrueType-GDOS! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 172 Mon Mar 28, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 08:08 EST Steve-J, If you know these guys, would ya tell 'em to convert the PG Music TTF to Speedo for me? --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 173 Mon Mar 28, 1994 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 11:21 EST Bitstream's refusal to disseminate the Speedo font format is puzzling. Even more so when you consider the fact that Speedo is really a dead end format that didn't catch on _at_all_, and is used by nobody except Atari. I imagine the Bitstream executives, becoming aware that their font format is a white elephant nobody wants, looking around for a sucker to license it. "Hey, how about Atari? Don't they still have a computer line?" And Atari thinks, "Wow, this format is _cheap_! Get Augie to cut a check..." A match made in heaven... - Charles ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 174 Mon Mar 28, 1994 COMPO at 21:43 EST Charles - I strongly disagree that Speedo is a "dead end format that didn't catch on _at all_"... Why are you so eager to count it out? The number of users actively using Speedo fonts (on any platform, but PCs in particular) went up dramatically last year. The availability of Speedo fonts through the retail market also improved substantially. And regardless of market penetration, Speedo is an excellent design, arguably at the forefront of typeface technology. Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 175 Mon Mar 28, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:59 EST Charles, Actually, Speedo fonts are used extensively in publishing. We use them in our Harris pagination system, and European systems use them quite widely. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 176 Mon Mar 28, 1994 R.CARPENTE18 [Bob C.] at 22:45 EST Charles, I've been greatly puzzled by Bitstream's attitude myself. It's unfortunately when I know of a developer that could've gotten a converter up and running in no time. Papa, I see you have the same attitude towards Speedo fonts that Al Fastoldt has. I don't need professional quality fonts for everything I do. Since I can download TT fonts from a local BBS for next to nothing, I don't mind separating the wheat from the chaff. I'd just like that choice, without spending forever (illegally) reverse-engineering the Speedo font format. I usually go with a few normal, high quality fonts (I've got enough of those). The rest are used to "make a point" or for effect. I don't want to spend $30-$90 each to do that. That's where a converter would be so helpful. I'm not slamming Atari on this one. It's not Atari's format to distribute. I'd of thought that Bitstream would want to "open" their format a bit. I guess they want TrueType to be the font standard. So be it. Bob Carpenter ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 177 Mon Mar 28, 1994 P.MORALES1 [Pat] at 22:47 EST Kevin, > Will it load GEM metafile outlines? :) Sorry, no. One thing (maybe) of interest is that its font descriptor language is pure ASCII. I can't think of any easy way for you to create GDOS fonts. Too bad Working Title USA (CodeHead) doesn't have the source to Calligrapher. Have you thought about a different font technology, like licensing CFN technology. If it is of any help, the offer still stands. Pat ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 178 Tue Mar 29, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 03:40 EST Charles (CodeHead), Exactly my sentiments... --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 179 Tue Mar 29, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 04:09 EST Charles, I have to agree with Robert and Al. Speedo is a superb font format - not a bargain basement "grab it just to be different item". Given Bitstream's position in the high end of the publishing business it is not in their best interests to give out the Speedo algorithms - even at a price. To do so would be to dilute the quality standards that are associated with their name. I think it would be very gracious of them to port their font styling program to the Atari although I have doubts that it would be a profitable undertaking. I, for one, would hock my one remaining gold filling to get it! Frankly, I was very surprised by your post. It seemed very much out of character. Bob, The tools are available for specialized text effects using Speedo. They are not Speedo fonts, to be sure, but I think the "Fun Fonts" I uploaded to the library qualify in that respect. They are crude, to be sure, and not very easy to use but they do serve to provide a contrast to what is currently available in Speedo. They were generated from CFN's and Postscript fonts downloaded from GEnie and Compuserve. Currently I have about 105 faces of widely varying quality. When I have the time to refine them and make them a bit easier to use I plan to upload more. Sooner or later a font editor for Speedo is bound to appear. It doesn't have to be illegal either - so long as the actual algorithms are not copied there is nothing illegal about an editor that creates the outlines, strokes, fills, etc in a Speedo _compatible_ manner. As for your freedom of choice, you can thank the US Patent Office for that - not the originators of Truetype or Postscript. The United States is perhaps the world's most hazardous environment for a true type foundry since there is virtually no way they can protect the literally thousands of hours of work that go into creating a font family. I often wonder why they even bother to do it since their work will be knocked off in an autotracer within days of its first appearing in print. To provide a bit of balance to that last paragraph I _must_ admit that I have an extensive collection of "purloined" fonts myself and I do use them. I have the same attitude towards fonts that Al has? That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me today! Thank you! ;-) 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 180 Tue Mar 29, 1994 STEVE-J [DrHfuhruhurr] at 05:46 EST PG.MUSIC - I don't know them -- just that it's 3 or 4 guys in Germany! COMPO - Then why doesn't Bitstream make Speedo format fonts of theirs available (like including Speedo format fonts in their Li'l Bits font packages, etc.)? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 181 Tue Mar 29, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 07:59 EST By the time we see a font editor, will anyone still use an Atari ST? A font styler is next to useless. Especially for what I need. --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 182 Tue Mar 29, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 13:36 EST Steve, I have wondered about the Bitstream "Li'l Bits" package myself. It would seem logical that if they make a "price leader" package of Speedo fonts for Wordpluperfect that they would also port their other "price leader" packs to that format - and target market. It's a "Li'l Bit" of a puzzlement to me ;-) Kevin, I honestly would not be surprised to see a font editor available by this time next year - probably from Germany or England. It would also be less likely to be an "illegal" editor since the laws in Europe protect font designers much better than they do in the US. The distinctive appearance of a typeface is patentable in Europe whereas our patent laws declare that typefaces are "utilitarian" and therefore unpatentable. Definite pros and cons to that stance. Since you have the Truetype version of your font the best path I can see is to convert it to Postscript Type 1 then use MegaType's Font Designer package to re-convert it to Calamus CFN then through Compo's C-Font to GDOS in various point sizes and resolutions. There are TT to PS converters available for the PC platform. Perhaps the folks at Megatype would be willing to do the conversion for you it you give them a license to sell the font. Just a thought. 'Papa' ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 183 Tue Mar 29, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 17:11 EST COMPO, If you have 0% market penetration, it doesn't matter how good your idea is. Pat, Licensing a new font format _JUST_ for the Atari versions of software? Ahem... I don't think so. Heck, Atari doesn't even do anything but Jags these days. Anyway, I called BitStream today. No font converter availabe. No docs available on their format. They supposedly _WILL_ convert the font or something for us for ~$1000. Not too bad I _GUESS_, but... I'm not the one who calls those shots. Also, BitStream DOES NOT have a font with musical notation symbols either. I think Notation will have to wait until I have time to work up my "own" format based off of GEM metafiles and then create bitmapped GDOS fonts from there if necessary. Don't kid yourselves folx. Atari only went with Speedo because it was CHEAP for them to do so. Say around $10K from reports I've heard. --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 184 Wed Mar 30, 1994 B.SEMAAN [BOSEM] at 08:43 EST A few months back Bob Brodie told me he heard that Bitstream will license developers to design Speedo fonts for a mere $5000. or so. I would imagine that if Atari computers were as prevalent as they were 7 or 8 years ago some enterprising developer would make time to reverse engineer a Speedo converter program. Given the current state of the Atari market though, I just don't see it happening in the foreseeable future. Speedo 4.2 does have problems with AW in combination with Warp9 3.8+ but I don't use any other GDOS apps and don't know what other prgs would choke on it. Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 185 Wed Mar 30, 1994 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 18:48 EST Robert, I'm not "eager to count it out." It's already been counted out, by the realities of the market. I subscribe to several DTP magazines, including a couple of print trade journals, and in the hundreds (maybe thousands) of articles I've read in the past year about type-related subjects I can't recall seeing even one mention of the Speedo format. I can understand why you'd like to make it appear otherwise (you do sell the program, after all), but the fact is that Speedo simply has not caught on. >> ... regardless of market penetration, Speedo is an excellent >> design, arguably at the forefront of typeface technology. "Arguably" is right. But before you try to argue that viewpoint, you'd be well-advised to research new technologies like Adobe's multiple master architecture (which isn't that new any more, actually), and the typographic tools built into Apple's new Quickdraw GX -- just to name two examples. I'm not trying to say that Speedo doesn't produce good output, by the way. It does. But placing it at the "forefront of typeface technology" is a bit of a reach. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Papa, I'm surprised that you were surprised by my post! I've never made any secret of my opinion that Atari would have been much wiser to do whatever was necessary to support Postscript Type 1 or Truetype fonts at the OS level, instead of trying to get deals on dead-end proprietary formats. In fact, I expressed this opinion on more than one occasion directly to Atari programmers, back when Ken Badertscher and John Townsend were still working there. And I'm certain I wasn't the only person telling them, either. Another case of a road not taken... - Charles ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 186 Wed Mar 30, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:02 EST Robert, I agree completely with your comments on Speedo. Bob C., The reason Speedo fonts are such high quality is precisely the same as the reason you don't find them at the corner BBS. And anyone who is able to spot barn-door TT fonts without a lot of trial and error has a truly good eye; I work with fonts professionally and often have a hard time telling the good TT fonts from the ones the cows moo past every day until I have worked with them in many sizes. Font design is still an art, and the designs from Bitstream are uniformly outstanding. Besides, anyone who wants to use cheap or free fonts with Works can just plain use bitmapped fonts. There are many right here in the libraries. Kevin, Atari went with Speedo long before TT became an obvious hit. I think Atari's decision was the right one at the time, and it remains an intelligent choice. The Speedo engine is a very good one, and the fonts themselves are top quality. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 187 Wed Mar 30, 1994 M.SAEGER [Mike] at 19:59 EST Speedo and Timeworks Publisher ----- Although you can't use Speedo fonts with Timeworks Publisher 1 You can use Speedo and bitmapped fonts. I use the Star NB-24 driver with my original PUBLISHER.WID and it works great on my BJ-200 bubble jet in Epson emulation mode. In case anyone is interested -- Mike. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 188 Wed Mar 30, 1994 M.SAEGER [Mike] at 20:02 EST Would someone explain the Epson LQ570 driver. I can't use it with the Epson emulation on my Canon BJ-200. All I get is garbage. The Star NB-24 works great. Is it that the BJ-200 can't accept graphics 360 x 360 in Epson mode? The Bj10-e also works fine. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 189 Wed Mar 30, 1994 M.SAEGER [Mike] at 20:20 EST I may be the only one who has had this problem but just in case someone else has it... I would load Speedo and get a message that Miscellaneous Cache was insufficient and Speedo would not work. The problem was a desk accessory I was using DESKPAC.ACC. For some reason it would corrupt the header of one of the fonts that active. In the Fonts menu the name would be garbage (Installed Fonts) I tried write-protecting all the fonts but the font header continued to get damaged. I finally had to stop using DESKPAC.ACC and re-copied the damaged font from diskette and Speedo now works great! Oh, another symptom was clicking on the Cache option caused bombs. Speedo was really sick until I got rid of DESKPAC. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 190 Wed Mar 30, 1994 R.CARPENTE18 [Bob C.] at 20:24 EST Papa, Both Adobe and Microsoft have published specifications on their font formats (Type 1 and TrueType, respectively). Both realized that they weren't going to make money on their font formats, per se. However, in creating standards, everyone wants a PostScript printer (if they can afford one). By making Type 1 a standard, they made PostScript printers that much more attractive. In the same vein, by using TrueType, Microsoft made MS-Windows more attractive to people. By having Speedo be an open format, it would make SpeedoGDOS more attractive to people. I don't expect Bitstream to give away the "family jewels" (standard encoded (IBM) fonts). However, if they'd disseminate the info for the Atari- encoded fonts (can't be used on the PC), then I'd be very happy. I agree that eventually some masochistic person will create a Speedo editor. I doff my hat to him (or her)! However, as much as I love programming on the ST, I could never justify spending that kind of time doing "legwork" and not even knowing if it was fully compatible. Sorry, if I seem harsh. It's just that "outside compatibility" is a pet peeve of mine. As Atarians, it makes life MUCH easier if we can deal with the outside world. We do some things well (read IBM disks), but we could do far better in other things (for instance, try to take an RTF document from Ami Pro on the PC and bring it into AW). That's it for me on this subject. I don't want to go on some hysterical ranting fit. Speedo is a fine format that compares very favorably to TrueType. As a programmer, however, I'm more for open standards that all benefit from than proprietary standards that keep people locked into their own platforms. Geez, I'm sounding like the "Open Systems" crud that I read about at work all the time :-) Bob Carpenter ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 191 Wed Mar 30, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:27 EST Charles, There's a problem here with the dates of Atari's decision to adopt Speedo and the date that TrueType became an obviously successful system. Atari made its decision before TT had gained much credibility in the marketplace. If you reread all those articles from that time, you'll see, as I saw, how many "experts" counted TT out even before it had a chance to go to battle against Type I and Speedo (and all the other outline technologies). Atari went with the font technology that was clearly superior at the time. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 192 Wed Mar 30, 1994 K.ESTES [Kenne@SFRT] at 20:44 EST You seemed to have forgotten FSMGDOS and FontGDOS. Superior or not, there are very few Speedo fonts hanging about. Speedo is the best we have. It aint gonna get no better. Saying it's the best is poor consolation. There are more Calamus fonts around. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 193 Wed Mar 30, 1994 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 20:45 EST Al, My experiences with (and opinions about) commercial Truetype fonts just don't coincide with yours. Sure, there are incredible numbers of not-very- good free and shareware Truetype fonts. I got a $5.00 CD full of PD Truetype fonts that were almost unuseable myself once. But that's hardly an appropriate comparison, especially if you're comparing with Speedo, for which there are precisely _zero_ free and shareware fonts. In my experience, the commercial Truetype fonts I've seen and worked with have been of very high quality, both at 300dpi and at linotype resolutions. Mind you, I'm talking about the Macintosh here; I don't have any direct experience with TT fonts for Windows. I also disagree that the decision to go with Speedo was the right one. In my opinion, Atari users would have been much better served by a version of Adobe Type Manager for TOS; or some other type of OS-level Postscript font support, along with Postscript printer drivers. It would have given Atari users instant access to a vast library of high-quality fonts, and the ability to use just about any laser printer on the market -- and it would have gone a long way toward making the Atari computer line more credible in the "mainstream," and might have kept it alive a little longer. - Charles ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 194 Wed Mar 30, 1994 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 21:35 EST Kenne, >> Speedo is the best we have. It aint gonna get no better. Saying >> it's the best is poor consolation. Well said. That's the bottom line. - Charles ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 195 Wed Mar 30, 1994 COMPO at 22:39 EST Steve, Bitstream does sell some Speedo fonts, as well as several bundle font packs - they're named Type Essentials - but they're not so easy to find. Incidentally, they're also more expensive than COMPO's packs. Most of Bitstream's business is direct, but the retail/resale chain is picking up. Not everybody's caught up, but you should be able to find at least one Speedo font pack at a Atari or PC dealer. Bitstream makes fonts in several formats. Not all of their fonts are available in Speedo (including the fonts in the Li'l Bits packages), but most of them are, and more are available in Speedo than any other format (next is Type 1, then Truetype). Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 196 Wed Mar 30, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 22:48 EST Al, Atari's choice may also be the thing which prevents applications devs from porting any more software from the PC/Mac to the ST. _IF_ I have time to create my own outline font format (using our own type one music font) the Atari version will see notation. If not... so be it. It won't be long before I'm back up to speed on the Mac anyway. I only write Atari software as long as it is profitable for me to do so. When 'the boss' says, "I want you to quit wasting time on the Atari font conversion hassles" I will drop it like a hot potato. That's life. Atari chose the cheap route (type 1 was widely availble, heck even UltraScript was around!) Don't expect all the devs to 'pick up the tab' just because Atari was cheap. I would suggest that John & Charles write G+Plus4Type1, but at this stage, it probably wouldn't be worth their time & $$. Heck, I would've settled for Calamus fonts. At least I could get a tool to convert & create the darn font I NEED at a reasonable cost. --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 197 Thu Mar 31, 1994 B.SEMAAN [BOSEM] at 04:43 EST Mike Saiger, To answer your query, the problem with the LQ-570 driver is that it only supports newer LQ printers that have builtin scalable fonts. The Star 24 pin driver only prints in one resolution (180 x180, I think) out of the six available on the standard LQ. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Anyone who thinks the current Speedo drivers, especially the Epson 24 pin and Deskjet ones are not 'all they can be' needs to pester Atari. I'd start with Bob Brodie since he's the user's link to the corporation, even though I happen to know that he's not part of the problem here. You can help him become part of the solution by giving him the ammunition he needs to lean on the dev support guys to make it a little easier for us developers to fix and/or create new drivers. In regards to Speedo fonts and their availability, I have to agree with Al and the others who say Bitstream's Speedo format is top quality and makes much nicer printouts than the TT fonts I've used with Windows. But at what price? Let's face it. The vast majority of Atari users are not in a position to pay the kind of money that Speedo fonts cost. A very few users have businesses that can justify and/or afford to pay $20+ for a font. Let's face it, this is not a commercial platform. Rregardless of how good the TT may be it will never be the choice of more than a handful of commercial users. The bottom line is Atari has put home users in the precarious position of having to pay commercial rates for a hobby or pleasure use. If there were this plethora of bit-mapped GDOS fonts freely available that some people keep referring to things would be more in balance, but the vast majority of fonts I've seen here or on Delphi are only usable on Pagestream or Calamus. And hey, I think that's great that there is so much support for commercial grade hardcopy on the ST but here again, why should home users have to spend hundreds of dollars for a commercial product when all they want is something to generate decent looking documents for their own personal use? I really thought that when Atari switched support to outline fonts that the bit- mapped fonts already out there would become shareware. Someone somewhere must have some bit-mapped designs that could be re-released as shareware. And/or maybe Mike Fulton could be convinced to re-release his GDOS font generator Fontz as shareware. I doubt he's sold any copies commercially in the last few years. Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 198 Thu Mar 31, 1994 STEVE-J [DrHfuhruhurr] at 05:29 EST COMPO - I'm sure MANY people around here remember Atari touting how all sorts of Speedo font packs would be available through Egghead Software (which NEVER showed up!). Having to buy fonts directly from the manufacturer, or one or two other vendors, is FAR from being readily available (that's the real issue here -- AVAILABILITY). It's also been mentioned more than a few times that Bitstream only makes SOME of its entire font library available in Speedo format. What kind of support is that? Personally, I don't really care all that much since I have over 60 Speedo fonts, which includes most of the basic ones I'll use (Swiss, Dutch, etc.) and several I'll NEVER use (Shotgun, for example! ). There ARE a few I'd like to have, though, such as a music symbol set (like Kevin wants) -- which Bitstream doesn't have AT ALL! And that means we can't have one AT ALL! That's the stupid part of Speedo. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 199 Thu Mar 31, 1994 W.HYNES at 05:47 EST Mike, Thanks for the info. It's the answer I was looking for! Now to try it. -Bill- Later... Mike- I tried to re-install Publisher ST 1.11 on my hard drive to change the printer driver to the Star NB-24 and it wasn't among the selections. Would this be the driver in Speedo? If so which driver did you choose when installing Pub ST? Thanks again. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 200 Thu Mar 31, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:09 EST Charles, I agree, in hindsight, that Type I fonts and a Type 1 scaler would have been far better, although the Type 1 scaler is not as advanced as the Speedo one. But at the time Atari chose Speedo fonts, Type I was an expensive alternative. It is only lately that Adobe, under pressure from PostScript cloners, opened up the Type 1 market. TT fonts for Windows tend to be the dregs. I'd expect the Mac sharware versions to be a little less tacky. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 201 Thu Mar 31, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:07 EST Kevin, G+Plus Type 1 (otherwise to be known as HeadScript) would be an excellent idea. How 'bout it, John & Charles? :) To be serious for a moment, it's easy to forget that we are *not* limited to Speedo or older GDOS type formats. Calligrapher and That's Write both support PostScript. Bob, I didn't have time to count the font files themselves, but a check of the total number of files in my GDOS storage folder shows 340 files, and most of those are fonts. Sure, we could use a lot more, but the fact is that there are many freeware bitmapped GDOS fonts. (Not all are good enough for critical use, perhaps, but the point is valid.) Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 202 Thu Mar 31, 1994 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 11:29 EST Al, It's actually been over a year now since Adobe opened up the Type 1 format. But that's not the point. My point is that, expensive or not, Postscript was clearly _the_ industry standard at the time, and the effort and expense to implement it for TOS would have been repaid many times over. Instead, Atari users are stuck with the cheap format, and limited font availability (Bitstream themselves barely support it!), and can only watch as the rest of the DTP world continues to progress. And the reason is simple: Atari cheaped out. By the way, this isn't just hindsight, either. I've held this opinion for years, and, as I said, expressed it to Atari on more than one occasion. Another point: I see people saying all the time that the Speedo scaling engine is "more advanced" than ATM or Truetype. What evidence do you have to back this up? Or is it purely a subjective opinion? G+Plus Type 1 is never going to happen. There simply is no market left; we'd be complete idiots to invest the time and money necessary to develop such a thing, with no hope of making a profit. Sorry. - Charles ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 203 Thu Mar 31, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 11:49 EST Charles, I realized that. Al, Maybe you can convince Dan to make "GribScript" if Geneva and NeoD4 turn out to be profitable for the Gribs? Or... maybe he could get the srcs to Ultrascript as a starting point? The whole point was to have _system_level_ support for the outline fonts. Not code in an ATM equivalent into every app. Oh well... the notation may get done later... --Kevin ------------