************ Topic 8 Thu Jun 15, 1989 SANDY.W [SysOp] at 12:15 EDT Sub: Calamus Outline Calamus Outline offers nearly unlimited possibilities for the manipulation of text, letter and font attributes. 175 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 1 Fri Mar 16, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 08:54 EST Ron is correct. Set up the 4rth vector point slightly off the first point. Mark your corners, then put them together. Then make your circle using the Bezier curves. As for me, if I can't do it in Calamus, I don't do it. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 2 Sat Mar 17, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 23:06 PST I just had a thought guys (yes, that's my quota for this month :-) Does Outline use a math chip if installed? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 3 Sun Mar 18, 1990 T.JOHNSON4 at 00:58 PST Hi Ron, Have you had any interesting O-Line graphics printed at L.E. yet? Also, have you done a raster % chart on the Lino yet. (A reference as to how the rasters print on a Lino from Calamus). If you have any tangible screen examples printed on the Lino, I'd be interested in seeing them. Screen being a raster fill rather than a monitor. ..Todd ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 4 Sun Mar 18, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 15:21 PST No, no chance, yet. Just got Outline on Friday. I'll be doing some tests this week, I imagine. I'd like to be able to set up a standard test so that people can see for themselves what line weights and screens and text look like on the Lino. Any suggestions as to what should be on this standard page? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 5 Sun Mar 18, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 21:26 EST I have a suggestion. Prepare a page with about 20 different percentage rasters on it, label those percentages and print it. You will find that there is definitely a difference from 300 DPI. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 6 Mon Mar 19, 1990 T.JOHNSON4 at 23:23 PST Exactly! An example of 1270 and 2540 DPI screens. Although 2540 will only usually be used for Colour sep's film output so you may as well only do it at 1270 DPI. An example of the shadows, line weights, arrowheads, the difference between dynamic and static character outlines would all be valuable info. Oh, the different raster settings too. ..Todd ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 7 Mon Mar 19, 1990 N.ROUGHLEY at 23:40 PST Nathan, how does O-Line deal with line thicknesses? I think I read a message some time ago here that you can set line thickness before saving a graphic. I'm curious as to what line parameters can be set. I'll be buying the program shortly. Can you enlighten me till then. << Neil >> ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 8 Tue Mar 20, 1990 NEVIN-S at 06:34 EST Todd, I disagree. Here in NYC 2450 is only $1 more than 1270, and for shaded areas (rasters) 2450 is the only way to go. The dots simply disappear, while they remain visible at 1270. --Nevin ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 9 Tue Mar 20, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 11:08 EST Neil...When you are saving a Calamus Vector Graphic created in Outline Art their is a designation for line thickness. The default size is .18 mm. This is user definable and causes very interesting affects. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 10 Tue Mar 20, 1990 T.JOHNSON4 at 20:35 PST Nevin, Right you are! Screens will definately enjoy a higher res. (2450??) If the price is that close, you may as well go for 2540 DPI. Type, on the other hand will not noticably improve at that res. and the price difference here is a tad more substantial so.. ..Todd ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 11 Wed Mar 21, 1990 N.ROUGHLEY at 00:19 PST So line thicknesses are user defineable. from the keyboard. That's great. << Neil >> ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 12 Wed Mar 21, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:35 EST Right and right again. (Right = Correct) :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 13 Sat Mar 31, 1990 A.GARCIA4 at 08:33 CST I am having trouble creating "PERSPECTIVE" as described in the Outline ART manual on page 111. The word "THE" is to be displayed in perspective with a chromium effect. Actually the problem I am having is getting the "chromium effect". I have a need to get text in gray scale and can't seem to get it. I cannot be to specific on what I am doing wrong because I believe that I am following the directions as described. BUT obviously I an doing something wrong somewhere! ANY SUGGESTIONS? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 14 Sat Mar 31, 1990 BREHBOCK at 14:55 CST A.GARCIA: Make sure that the _THE_ is still selected when you create the two paths to go around it. Each path must alternate in direction to get the desired effect. If a path is 'going in the wrong direction', you won't get the stenciled-out effect. To change directions of a given path, select the object, (in this case, the object will consist of "THE", and a separate path around it) then using the arrow, click on a point in the path around the outside while holding down ALTERNATE. This will select all the control points in the path. Now select the 'Alternate Direction' icon and click on one of the control points. The will become deselected and the path direction will have been changed. To better understand the effects of alternating path directions, see page 38 in the Outline Manual. An excellent explanation of Clipping Paths can be found in the PostScript Language Tutorial and Cookbook by Adobe Systems (Chapter 10). P.S. Make sure you've converted the text to an object (after applying the 'null' operator to the text as descibed in 3.9) Hope this helps, -Bill Rehbock ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 15 Mon Apr 02, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 17:58 EDT An archival of messages have been placed in the library. The file number is 14751 and the filename is CAT16_T8.ARC. What this means is you will find all the messages up to date, to this point in this archival. You can take advantage of these messages being archived as soon as one of my sysops is kind enough to place it out. Enjoy! ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 16 Thu Apr 05, 1990 A.GARCIA4 at 19:07 CDT BREHBOCK: Thanks for the information. I'll try your suggestion. Albert ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 17 Tue Apr 17, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 23:04 EDT Has anyone been checking out the latest samples in library 30?? If so, what do you think about them?? Do you have your own samples to share?? I enjoy checking these types of files out and wouldn't mind seeing some more. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 18 Wed Apr 18, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 02:29 PDT Since there's no Outline ClipArt topic, can anyone who has purchased this package let me know what they think of any FOOD art that may be contained? (believe it or not, it's rather essential that I get some good FOOD ART.) preferably low-cholesterol :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 19 Wed Apr 18, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 06:45 EDT I too would like to know about this one. I am more than just curious. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 20 Mon Apr 23, 1990 R.GILLIES at 02:58 PDT Well, I just purchased O-Line today. Tried out the kerning function of text object dialog box. The kerning worked as expected when I returned to the working area. But when I went back to do further kerning and click on Delete All (all kerning, that is), the keyboard hung up. I waited about a minute, without result. Had to reboot. Hmmmmm. Nathan, how many points to I have to hammer down for an object to use the globe, cylinder, and cone functions upon it? If there's not enough points set, it only aproximates the shape. Am I doing something wrong? The imported CVG re-calc takes unbearibly long if I accidently click on the object. I hope that this one get worked on in the next revision. Will get back to you on more stuff as I get familiar with the user interface. I have to applaud ISD and Ditek on a terrific program. It's a bit intimidating to use until you get familiar with it's functions. I kinda wished it had the ease of creating conventional objects like in EZ-DRAW, but that would be comparing apples and oranges. Both are more suited for what each does best. ISD's products are reason enough for the existance of the ST. :-) ....Bob P.S.- Is there reason as to why there is only a 100k limit of useable memory? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 21 Mon Apr 23, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:52 EDT Morning Bob. Thanks for the info on the kerning. We will check it out here this morning. The 100K limit was imposed so that those with a 1040ST could use the program. Outline Art 2.0, which we plan on releasing simultaneously with Calamus SL, access all available RAM. Your problem with the cone shape etc. is a simple one if I understood your problem correctly. Basically the formula that has been included in the calculator, is based on calculating the entire workspace to fit the formula selected for those items. So if you picked the Globe, for example, and only used a part of the work space, then only that part of the globe would appear. Try putting 5 text frames with the word TEST in them across the entire workspace and then calculate the globe. Bob, I thank you for your comments about ISD and Ditek. They are appreciated. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 22 Mon Apr 23, 1990 SGUBER at 19:06 CDT Natahn: Did you ever have a chance to upload the names of the files on the two art disks. I ams s still interested but I would like to know whqat I am buying. Sol /s /s ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 23 Tue Apr 24, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:36 EDT I thought I had Sol. I'll go look. I forget. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 24 Tue Apr 24, 1990 R.GILLIES at 21:41 PDT I might have unfairly complained that O-Line is slow at recalculating a converted GEM file. To be fair, it was about 50K, according to the O-LINE info menu. O-Line most likely uses very high precision math to do all those neat tricks. I know for a fact that it uses floating point in it's calculations (more accurate but slower that fixed point) because I've been doing some control path gymnastics that on one occasion reported to me on encountering a "floating point error", and promptly (but politely) sent me to the GEM desktop. It's never happened since, and I've tried hard to repeat it :-). For people thinking of importing GEM converted CAD-3D SEQ. files, bear in mind that CAD-3D creates a duplicate opaque white polyline for every triangle to facilitate the hidden line representation. Getting rid of that is excruciating in EZ-DRAW by virtue of the number of objects. Perhaps some sharp programmer can write a program to sort a GEM file and delete all opaque, white, bordler polylines to cut down on the number of total polylines. Of course, that would leave you with just a wireframe, loosing the hidden line effect. In addition, CALAMUS cant interpret these converted files for some reason. You must first load and resave it from in EZ-Draw (I have version 2.3), and then it can then be converted to CVG. ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 25 Tue Apr 24, 1990 R.GILLIES at 21:47 PDT Hmmm... upon thinkin upon it for a bit, all single line segments should be deleted and the opaque white, borderless closed polylines should be have thier borders set to black. If someone has any code to read a GEM metafile, I'll write it myself and put it in the public domain. ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 26 Thu May 03, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 07:43 EDT I mentioned earlier DMC's justification for the 100K limit, in their words, so that people with 1040's could use the program. Now while I understand that logic, I should have a version that should remove the limit. Next month in Germany, I'll get it or come back with a reason why not that makes sense to all of us here with Mega 2's and 4's. Most of the problems that are being encountered with Outline Art directly relate to the memory limitation so this is a high priority. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 27 Thu May 03, 1990 DOUG.W at 18:57 EDT I wonder if they might be able to make the limit dynamic, and base it on available memory at run-time... --Doug ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 28 Fri May 04, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 00:22 EDT Thats my hope but no go. I do not anticipate any change in the memory limitations until the release of Calamus SL. I spoke to them today about it. Ended up postponing my trip to Germany until July as they will be better prepared to receive me then in terms of product completion etc. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 29 Fri May 04, 1990 R.GILLIES at 07:05 PDT Well, despite the memory limitation, OUTLINE still does the job. This will allow us time to inundate Nathan with our wish lists. :-) ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 30 Fri May 04, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 16:32 EDT Please do, good point Bob. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 31 Thu May 10, 1990 R.GILLIES at 01:01 PDT Nathan, if loading an IMG or CRG in the background is not viable, why not at least incorporate support for a digitizing tablet so one can place strategic bezier points directly. Gazing back and forth between the screen and a picture gridline is very primitive and laborious. Although not cheap, tablets can be had for about $300 these days. ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 32 Thu May 10, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 09:15 EDT I would LOVE support for tablets. Tis something I have wanted and would use tremendously. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 33 Thu May 10, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:50 EDT Support for tablets...Noted, another good point. I have also been told that there are PD programs available that allow you to load an IMG file into the background of any program. Anyone seen one of these, he asks, of the assembled multitude? :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 34 Thu May 10, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 21:38 PDT No. If you find it let me know. I also vote for digitizer support. CalComp makes a good inexpensive one now called 'Wiz'. I'll kill anyone who develops a digitizer that uses the cartridge port. Ron (stay away from my Spectre port!) Grant ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 35 Fri May 11, 1990 TPHOMMEL [brother Denn] at 06:51 EDT Wish List? How interesting! I was just wishing on the drive home from London last night. 1 O) I want KEYBOARD equivalent commands. 2) I want to be able to draw an oval, circle, rectangle, or square in on step. 4) I want to be able to use the shift key when drawing or adjusting objects to constrain them to vertical, horizontal, or 45 degrees. 5) I want to be able to LASSO points and or objects, rather than having to use the dammed shift-click method. 7) I want to be able to GROUP parts of my drawing, so that I can move them, size them, send them forward or back, in fewer steps. 8) I would like to be able to send an object (or grouped object) back or forward only one layer. Are those enough WISHES to start with? nufsed... dmh ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 36 Fri May 11, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:18 EDT Actually no, :-), keep them coming. When I get to Germany I will have a BIG LIST in hand. :-) Every one of your points were good ones Dennis. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 37 Fri May 11, 1990 R.GILLIES at 20:35 PDT I would choose to an path selection that closely follows CyberSculpt's method of selecting objects. The way you can "hide" vectors, select "named" objects, deselect individual objects or vertices. An bypass the slow recalc done everytime a new object is included in the selection, and finally have a preview box to see the interaction of path directions like in the FontEditor. ..Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 38 Fri May 11, 1990 R.GILLIES at 20:47 PDT Just thought up more... have multiple clipboards like in Calamus, the ability to save in CDK or CLT and print like in Calamus. In fact, I'd just drool if I could have every aspect of Calamus incorporated into O-line with the exception of desktop publishing stuff. In other words, an illustratoprogram to beat all others in one package. If all these things could be accomplished as modules that can be loaded up when a program runs, like Digital Darkroom's "pocket" applications, for use in both Calamus and O-LINE, it would truly be slick. DD also provides "hooks" so that independant developers can extend it's capabilities via the "pocket" even further. ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 39 Sat May 12, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 10:25 EDT Bob, you have just described Calamus SL, hooks and all. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 40 Tue May 15, 1990 R.GILLIES at 01:14 PDT More wish lists: A HOLD, TAUT and BEND function for a spline segment. HOLD: The ability for a spline to hold it's shape during manipulation of adjacent spline control points and protection from a SMOOTHEN SUBPATH operation. TAUT: The ability to select a spline and have it's 2nd and 3rd control points snap to the midpoint of the ends, causing a spline to straighten. BEND: The ability to select individualy and collectively all straight line vectors and switch them to Bezier vectors after the fact. INSERT: The ability to insert a new subpath's using the cursor in addition to whole separate subpaths (eq: a group of cog shaped subpaths around a circular subpath, creating a bicycle gear, and joining the all the elements as one). The last operation is my favorite, because it would give powerfull object creation capabilities. I also would like to see a TWEENING function like in Illustrator 88 on the MAC. This would enable shading capabilites that far exceed the dynamic grayscale funcution. For instance the shape of an apple with a glossy appearnce would have several shapes tweened between the outer shape and the inner reflection, with each tweened shape adjusting it's shade to get lighter as it approaches the reflection. To do this by hand is too time consuming. ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 41 Tue May 15, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:27 EDT Thanks for the suggestions Bob. Noted. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 42 Thu May 17, 1990 W.C.JENKINS at 22:16 EDT I just acquired Out Line. Grat program. I was under the impression that O-Line could save files in PostScript format. In fact, it seems like I remember that feature listed outside the box. (Unfortunatly, I threw the box away last night when I got the program, and don't have it tonight when I got around to trying the program.) Yet, I can find no reference to PostScript in the manual or in the program itself. Can I create graphics in O-Line and save them in PostScript format? -Bill ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 43 Thu May 17, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 23:00 EDT Relax Bill. The answer is yes. :-) We included an entirely seperate program after the fact, that we wrote in Canada that converts Calamus Vector Graphics to either EPS or PS file format. It is called CONVERT2X.PRG and a readme first should explain its simple operation on the disk. If you have questions, just ask. We respond fast. :-) And thanks for the kind words. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 44 Fri May 18, 1990 W.C.JENKINS at 23:06 EDT And thank YOU for the quick reply. I will check for CONVERT2X.PRG! Outline Art is truly amazing. It is one of those rare products that makes the user want to create something! ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 45 Sat May 19, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 00:21 EDT :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 46 Wed May 23, 1990 S.CEROVICH [Page Design] at 19:21 EDT Pssst... check out file 15275 when it clears (HINTS4.ARC). :-) Sandy ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 47 Wed May 23, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 21:45 EDT Not even a hint.........such a tease......:-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 48 Wed May 23, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 22:24 EDT I suspect that Sandy's latest contribution is of specific importance to Travis and peripherally to everyone else. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 49 Wed May 23, 1990 T.ROGERS1 at 22:35 CDT Is there a way in outLine to "Shift Click" multiple objects? I know there is a "select all". It seems that the inability (as far as I can tell) to specify different line weights in the same file is very limiting. I use Cal Demo to convery GEM files from EZD to CVG. Cal Demo can't handle splines with over 128 segments or so. Is there another converter that will? You see, I don't use Calamus. Also, when converted to Postcscript, lines that don't show on screen print out. Is it possible th to draw a line in Outline (a polyline) that has a transparent fill and is or is not closed? And that will print that way in postscript? I recently ended up haveing to complete a project in EZD because I could not find a way to get rid of the "hidden lines" in Outline CVG converted to EPS. And finally, if a routine to outline raster images is developed, isn't Outline the obvious program to implement it in? Why put it in the page make- up program only? I don't have or need Cal, but do need a good drawing program. I am pleased with the Text to path abilities but find it lacking in font support (Adobe) Thanks ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 50 Thu May 24, 1990 S.CEROVICH [Page Design] at 21:11 EDT It is possible to shift-click in Outline and activate multiple objects, just shift-click :-) To draw lines in Outline, you have to draw a box. The box can be as narrow as you want your line to be, or as wide as you want your line to be. I have had some success in drawing lines & leaving the ends open, however you do run into problems when you convert the graphic to an EPS. Why not just use narrow boxes for your lines? Font support? There are over 350 fonts available for Calamus and Outline Art. (You can find info about the Calamus Font Resource Guide in Topic 13). [Ooooh, snuck in another plug.] Should you not like any of those 350 fonts, or prefer to use PageStream fonts, MegaType has created Fontverter which will convert PageStream fonts to Calamus fonts & vice versa. If you want to go the Fontverter route, you'll also need a font editor to tweek the fonts in the format which you are moving them to. One of the places Fontverter is available from is Computer Safari, you can get more info and prices from him here on GEnie. His E_Mail address is J.PIERSTORFF. He also carries a full line of PageStream and Calamus products and his prices are reasonable. As far as Calamus fonts, utilities, companion products - see the Calamus Font Resource Guide for any info you need, it's all there (plug 2). Sandy ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 51 Thu May 24, 1990 BREHBOCK at 22:12 CDT Nathan, has there been any recent word on the new font pricing form CG? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 52 Thu May 24, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 23:30 EDT Nathan is out of town till next week. Hello Julius....are you out there? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 53 Thu May 24, 1990 T.ROGERS1 at 23:28 CDT What I really was having trouble with was deselcting objects after selecting all. (I got confused on-line) but today I was experimenting and was able to deselect one object at a time by pressing control along with shift. I did crash shortly after that however I don't know if it was related to "control- shift-clicking" As far as drawing lines with narrow boxes, I appreciate work- arounds but prefer capabilities and the particular project I was involved with required curved lines which means that when you double back around you must get all of your control points aligned as well. Snap to grid doesn't always allow the correct curve. As far as fonts go, I'm just frustrated that there are so many different incompatible formats for so many programs (Pagestream, Calamus, etx, whereas on the Mac, I believe that once installed, all fonts are compatible with all applications. In other words, if I have accumulated a nice font list in one program, I either have to but (buy) new ones for another program or go through a conversion routine involving setting kerning pairs, etc. I just feel it is too bad that the Atari community hasn't settled on some standards instead of proprietary formats. hanks for your reply. I think I'm going to have to ca change computers in order to have all the programs and features which my business requires. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 54 Fri May 25, 1990 ISD2 [Julius O.] at 01:31 EDT Eh? Wot?? Who, me??? I'll check with Shawn tomorrow and get back. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 55 Fri May 25, 1990 C.EISENSCHMI [Ike] at 22:20 PDT S.Cerovich, you are not the first to say you cant draw lines with Outline. However, I have drawn lines without drawing a frame. Curves and all. Ask Tim Lewis (editor of ST Journal). Choose path/object and set points using the tools. When converting back to lines choose path, lines, and no gray. When saving, set the line width to whatever thickness you want. The only draw back is curves lose a little in the translation. However the option is available. Anyone else out there find the same? BTW, Sandy, the Font Resourse Guide is nice. (Thats the right guy isn't it?) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 56 Sat May 26, 1990 R.GILLIES at 16:21 PDT I wasn't sure of Sandy's problem, but, yeah you could do line, curves, and polygons, depending on the settings Ike described. But you'll find doing boxs, circles, elipses, and pie segments much easier on EASYDRAW and later converting to CVG. (Revolver makes it an that much easier). I find that line width setting when exporting to CVG look best at .75 cm or less. Nathan, will tweening between to sets of paths (ala Illustrator 88) be supported in the next update? I heard that Canada's about to have a civil war? Do you speak fluent French, Nathan? Them Quebecer's might establish a beachhead at Meech lake. regards...Bob :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 57 Mon May 28, 1990 S.CEROVICH [Page Design] at 00:24 EDT I obviously mislead someone... I was talking about creating CVGs to convert to EPSs. You can indeed create lines in Outline without closing the path and print the CVG with Calamus - usually without any problem. However, if you convert a CVG with lines made up of open paths, they will not print properly. I should have mentioned that in my earlier post. It slipped my mind because I was talking primarily about using Outline and converting to EPS and printing on a postscript printer. I obviously slipped off into space somewhere along the line. :-) Sandy Oh, thanks for the compliment on the Font Guide :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 58 Mon May 28, 1990 R.GILLIES at 00:11 PDT I dont have UltraScript. Perhaps someone else can answer. ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 59 Mon May 28, 1990 TPHOMMEL [brother Denn] at 07:35 EDT Sandy, I downloaded your hints #4 and have posted a response in HINTS4A.ARC. I had encountered the same problem several weeks ago, and I think I came up with a solution that is a lot less complicated. I'll be posting it when I leave here. nufsed dmh ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 60 Mon May 28, 1990 S.CEROVICH [Page Design] at 17:19 EDT Thanks Denn... I post what I know, but I'm ALWAYS looking for easier ways. I'll d/l it soon's I leave the board. Sandy ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 61 Tue May 29, 1990 S.CEROVICH [Page Design] at 01:12 EDT Denn: Excellent work on Hints 4A - not only are people going to learn hints they'll be learning a couple of things about layout as well :-) Sandy ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 62 Tue May 29, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 08:41 EDT I see I can safely leave town on business anytime now as the questions will get answered anyway. :-) Actually my sister just got married so I did not take a computer along to Ottawa. :-) Thanks everyone. No idea on the tweening. I'll let you know, he says, adding it to his list. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 63 Tue Jun 05, 1990 R.GILLIES at 20:14 PDT ISD CREW, I need to align the reference pin to the center of an object, but my German is a little rusty :-). How do I do this? I need to rotate an object at it's horizontal and vertical center. Thanx. ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 64 Tue Jun 05, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 22:11 PDT Bob, in the calculator are a bunch of buttons, different for each function that control where the function will take effect. They are marked with such obtuse comments as "object ->^" and "<- left" and other weird things. These control the reference point of the function. The functions DEFAULT to the reference PIN, but can be changed to whatever the programmer has built into these buttons. To rotate an object around its H/V centre point, regardless of where the pin is, just select "Rotate" either by 90 deg or by a specified degree, and make sure you click on the 'object centre' button. Outline should recalc according to the objects geometric centre. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 65 Tue Jun 05, 1990 R.GILLIES at 23:08 PDT Thanks Ron :-). By the way, have you seen the Calamus Guide to Desktop Publishing? I'm wondering if it gives some indepth discusions on the calculator in Outline and the FontEditor? ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 66 Wed Jun 06, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 21:41 PDT There are six pages on the calculator in Outline in the Guide, but nothing on the calculator in the Font Editor. They're similar, but the one in the Font Editor is more limited. So pretty well anything about that one would be covered in the one on Outline. Seems OK, it let me know how to operate it, though I'm going to be on uncertain ground for a while, especially about the PUT/GET buttons. However, that's because I haven't actually programmed the calculator with any of my own functions, yet. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 67 Sat Jun 09, 1990 R.GILLIES at 00:51 PDT I'm curious in why the Change Subpath Direction icon doesn't make a differece in the displayed or printed graphic? I guess that this is somewhat similar to the one in the Fonteditor, but seems to have no effect. ....Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 68 Sat Jun 09, 1990 R.GILLIES at 02:31 PDT Uh...never mind. I found the answer in one of the practice pages. I guess that's what manuals are for . ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 69 Mon Jun 11, 1990 A.VALENT at 20:07 EDT After installing the hardware OVERSCAN mod in my new used Mega 4, I was delighted to see how well Calamus and the font editor worked and looked in 704x480 res. O_Line loaded fine, but when I loaded either a graphic or a CVG file, the file would not display properly. Tomorrow I'm going to try to create a file at the higher res, save and reload it - we'll see if that's a problem. Nathan, I assumed that if one program worked, they both would - same programmers and all. Apparently there's a difference in the way the two display their files. Moniterms cost too much for most of us, but there is a lot of activity in using this little hardware mod to drive a multisync monitor for higher resolution/larger picture size than the stock ST/SM124 will allow. OVERSCAN is a German thing - would you put this issue to your cohorts when you're over there? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 70 Mon Jun 11, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 23:31 EDT Sure but I'd better get my hands on OVERSCAN first so I know what I'm talking about. Care to point me in the right direction please ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 71 Wed Jun 13, 1990 A.VALENT at 20:44 EDT Sorry, Nathan. Download OVERSCAN.ARC if you're interested. The mod should work IF the program generates true GEM windows. The software tells GEM that its screen is x pixels by y pixels, and the hardware part allows the shifter to actually generate that screen size on the monitor. Calamus itself works BEAUTIFULLY with Overscan. The font editor will not properly display the alphabet on the letter selection screen, but WILL properly display a letter on the editing screen. O_Line will neither import .OL or CVG graphics nor will it display a new graphic properly with Overscan. In both font editor and O_Line, the program itself displays fine. Probably O_Line's workign window isn't a true GEM window, but is tied to an assumed screen size. It's funny though, because it works fine with either the BIGSCREEN (which is an adjustable-size virtual screen) or with MONSTER, which gives a simulated (virtual) Moniterm screen size. The font editor works with both of these also, though it doesn't adjust its size to fit the screen as O_Line does. (Oh well, Nathan, at least this isn't yet another question about the truncated hyphenation dictionary!) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 72 Thu Jun 14, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 18:51 EDT :-) I'll pass this along, thanks ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 73 Sat Jun 16, 1990 A.GARCIA4 at 15:07 CDT I need some help on the "Calculator" function. It seems when I try to create multiple copies of an object using the "enlarge %" function, I get every other copy placed upside down and under the original. What I am trying to do is get every copy placed behind the original and reduced by -95%. It seems to be easy enough but I keep getting half the copies behind the original and the other half 'upside down and below' the original. Can anyone help? This is a great program, but the manual really doesn't explain much in depth. AND I'm not an experienced graphic artist! ALbert ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 74 Sat Jun 16, 1990 R.GILLIES at 21:32 PDT First off, to not make the percentage negative. Second, I don't have the Calamus Desktop Publishing Guide, but I suspect it's worth getting the book. Let us know what happens. ...Bob ( correction: I meant to say "do not") ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 75 Sun Jun 17, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 01:53 PDT Bob's right. "Enlarge 200%" would give you an object twice the size. "Enlarge 50%" would give you and object half the size. If you want it reduced by 5% you would enlarge it 95% ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 76 Sun Jun 17, 1990 A.GARCIA4 at 18:33 CDT Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give them a try. In regards to the Calamus Desktop Publishing Guide, it does not offer much in the way of explanation either. Albert ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 77 Mon Jun 18, 1990 A.GARCIA4 at 21:13 CDT Well, your suggestions worked. I also discovered that the placement of the reference pin affects the placement of the subswquent copies. BTW, I used a negative number to reduce because the CALAMUS DESKTOP PUBLISHING GUIDE refers to negative numbers as a meams to reduce an object. It can be found on page 196. Again, Thanks for the suggestions. Now for another question? Can objects be subjected to 2 separate calculations at one time. In other words, can I enlarge and rotate by degrees? Albert ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 78 Tue Jun 19, 1990 R.GILLIES at 04:13 PDT I don't so, but that sounds like a good suggestion for the next update. Hmmmm... Calculator Macro's. ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 79 Tue Jun 19, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 10:19 EDT I don't think so either but it is an interesting idea. Let me check on it. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 80 Fri Jun 22, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:52 EDT It has been brought to my attention that one of our Outline Art Owners encountered difficulty printing a converted CVG to PS file on his SLM804. We quickly figured out why and as it can be of importance to others, I am repeating the problem here. Basically, this Owner created a control path and put text onto the control path, then saved it as a CVG. WRONG!! Please, always delete the control path before you save it as a CVG if you intend on converting it to PS. Otherwise, the output segments into white/ black around each vector path from the letters created. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 81 Fri Jun 29, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 12:07 EDT ISD is proud to announce the 1ST annual Outline Art Creativity Contest opened to all REGISTERED Owners of Outline Art, naturally. :-) The complete list of rules and regs can be found in our ISD library #30, file #15660. Good Luck to evryone. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 82 Sat Jul 07, 1990 B.HENDRICKS at 15:42 CDT Is there a way to "unmark" (read "remark") the corners of a control path? After creating it, I accidentally clicked on the 1st corner, and got the numbers 1 and 2 there. I've found no way to rectify a case like this. Is there one? Thanks, Bill H. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 83 Sun Jul 08, 1990 R.GILLIES at 03:30 PDT Bill, just click anywhere on the workspace. That'll "unmark" a path. ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 84 Thu Jul 12, 1990 B.HENDRICKS at 21:34 CDT Bob, Thanks! I was lookin' for something a lot more complicated! Works like a charm. Regards, Bill ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 85 Thu Jul 12, 1990 R.GILLIES at 19:59 PDT I've got a tip here about non-Compugraphic fonts and the line width setting. Some fonts intersect paths (see FONTPATH.ARC here online). , which spoils the outline text effect. You can still save with bold line width special effects if you make two identical sized text objects - one OUTLINE only and the other GREY filled only. Layer the GREYed text on top, align both carefully (use the snap to grid) and save both to CVG with 2.5 mm line width with all four margins set to 2.5 mm for good measure. Tada! Makes an acceptable "inlining" effect. But what the heck, get into ISD's contest and try and win some CG fonts. They truly are a beauty to behold. P.S.- I wish ISD would throw in DynaCADD for a consolation prize. :) ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 86 Fri Jul 13, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 00:19 EDT Hmmm, interesting concept. :-) Now I have a prize for my next contest. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 87 Tue Jul 17, 1990 D.SENSUI at 00:46 PDT Nathan: I just bought Outline Art and was disappointed to find out that it can't import a raster graphic. I intended to use that feature to scan-in photos or other illustrations as reference art. Is there any way of doing this effectively without shelling out more money for Easy Draw, etc.... Thanks. Dean. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 88 Tue Jul 17, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:36 EDT Wait until I return from Germany next week. I leave tomorrow and return on the 27th or so. I do know that there are PD programs currently available that will allow you to bring any IMG file into the background. Was that you intentions, or did you wish to vectorize the image? Raster to Vector will be a module of Calamus SL. It is already done. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 89 Wed Jul 18, 1990 D.SENSUI at 06:35 PDT Nathan: In case you read this before you leave, bon voyage. In case not, then welcome back. Either way, I'm looking for a way to create a vector image for an architectural rendering. I took a series of reference photos of the existing building which onto which must be pasted sign designs I've created. My initial intention was to bring in the raster image in the background so I can trace with Calamus Outline. It seems a bit cumbersome, but I think it can be done well if I learn the program thoroughly enough. Unfortunately, there's no way I can get a raster image into Outline, even on a temporary basis like I can with the font editor. I know you mentioned some PD programs that can do that. If I can even get a rough outline imported into Calamus Outline, I can get the job finished. I'm under a bit of a deadline and may have to do this ... egads ... with something called "pen and paper" :-) Nathan mentioned PD programs that allowed IMG files into the background for manual tracing. Does anyone else know of these programs and are they available on GEnie? I'd greatly appreciate the help! Mahalo... Dean. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 90 Wed Jul 18, 1990 C.EISENSCHMI [Ike @ T.S.I.] at 22:56 PDT Dean, I know this will sound funny, but you bring a raster image into the Font Editor by use the snapshot function. Then by drawing an outline within the font editor, create a font of your image. The only limitation is approx 12' in height as 999.9 points is just over 12 inches. The mono monitor limits the effectiveness of this, but it can be done. And if you have the Moniterm (or know someone who does have) the Moniterm version of the Font Editor is great. Try it out if you can. Good luck! Ike ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 91 Wed Jul 18, 1990 R.GILLIES at 23:50 PDT I thought the Moniterm version of the Fonteditor was unable to capture the screen? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 92 Thu Jul 19, 1990 D.SENSUI at 22:55 PDT Thanks for the help. Unfortunately the original bit mapped art has far more detail, which is important to the final rendering, than the font editor will display. I think Easy Draw may be a workable solution... Dean. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 93 Thu Jul 26, 1990 J.BROSZKOWS2 [Jerry] at 06:10 PDT Nathan (Julius?): Are there any plans for OL to allow more than 70 chars in a function definition? I have a few transformations that do weird and wonderful things but cannot pare them down to fit the 70 spaces. ...Jerry ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 94 Thu Jul 26, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 09:35 EDT Jerry: Now I am curious as to what you are doing. Care to fill me in? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 95 Thu Jul 26, 1990 NEVIN-S at 22:40 EDT I have one question? Is anyone using Outline to make drawings, rather than logos? The only samples I've seen from users have involved text manipulation. Is Outline a product one would use to draw a person sitting in a chair, or a group of people in front of a church? Or is it meant mostly as a text manipulation program? I would love to see some samples of artwork, rather than just logos, if anyone is doing anything like this. --Nevin ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 96 Thu Jul 26, 1990 D.SENSUI at 21:03 PDT Does anyone know if QMI is still producing graphic tablets for the Atari ST? The last message I saw was in October 87 about their "new" products. They announced at the time that a larger 12 by 16-inch tablet was going to be coming out. I tried calling the number they left without success. The operator in the area couldn't find a directory listing either. A graphic or digitizer tablet would be quite helpful with this and other programs... The QMI tablet was actually produced by Mitsubishi and somehow connected to the serial port. Interesting enough, but I wonder if it ever hit the market at all. Dean. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 97 Thu Jul 26, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 23:59 PDT D.SENSUI, I remember that tablet, also one from Navarone; I don't think they sold many of them, possibly because there weren't many applications that really would have benefitted from them at the time (Easy-Draw was perhaps the most sophisticated program available for the ST. Publishing Partner was THE thing for DTP.) I think they'd sell a lot better now; anyone know of a developer working on them? I know there's a European model available through ScanTech in Edmonton, but it's about $1000 ( a really nice one, mind you). We need one that cost about $299. Then they'd probably sell like crazy. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 98 Fri Jul 27, 1990 D.SENSUI at 02:23 PDT Ron... Navarone still have that tablet available? You're right about the price. For $1000 I'd settle for 'suffering' with the mouse :-). ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 99 Fri Jul 27, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 07:53 EDT QMI is out of business. Sorry. DynaCADD also worked with their tablet. (sigh) There are a few companies in Germany with this type of product but noone has brought them into North America. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 100 Fri Jul 27, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 08:14 EDT Hi there: I would give about anything for a graphic tablet myself but not $1000.00. I would get a tremendous amount of use from it. I can't create with a mouse like I can with a tablet. QMI is gone and into a different line of work. His numbers have been changed. Don't expect to find him. His friend George Mamos still logs in but I don't know if he has any news. I very rarely connect with him either. It would be nice if someone would pick up this one and sell it. It is needed. >>Darlah ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 101 Fri Jul 27, 1990 GORDON at 21:45 EDT The tablet was a stock tablet QMI did some custom drivers for the ST. It worked well, we sold 3 or 4. I don't think he sold enough to pay for his time developing it. *s ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 102 Fri Jul 27, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 21:14 PDT Incidentally, that $1000 is Canadian funds; so US would be about $800 or so. Still too expensive. I've been doing some investigation, though. It's possible something a little more reasonable (though smaller) might become available. I'll certainly say something if I have any positive news. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 103 Sat Jul 28, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 08:06 EDT Anyone want to resell the 3 or 4 you sold, Gordon? :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 104 Sat Jul 28, 1990 J.BROSZKOWS2 [Jerry] at 06:16 PDT Darlah: I dug out my old university calculus texts & tried mapping onto paraboloids (remember them things), etc. but unfortunately a lot of the results can't be expressed simply in terms of SIN & COS. I did manage to get a mapping onto a series of regularly spaced cylinders in the x and y directions and another onto a grid work of 4 sided pyramids, but both results wound up taking more than 70 spaces. :-( One simple result that did work was: X'=X+A*SIN(2*PI*D*(Y-MINY)/(MAXY-MINY)), Y'=Y+B*SIN(2*PI*E*(X-MINX)/(MAXX-MINX)), which gives a 2 dimensional 'wavy' effect. (You specify A & B, the amplitudes and D & E, the wave numbers). Try them with A=300, B=600, D=3, E=1 on a word like "HELLO" using a high quality font. ...Jerry ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 105 Sat Jul 28, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 10:20 EDT Jerry, this is great, a new formula. I knew I shouldn't have dropped math. :- ) I can't wait to try it Monday. Thanks. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 106 Sat Jul 28, 1990 D.SENSUI at 16:11 PDT I wonder if someone else would be willing to pick up the ball and start marketing the same digitizer tablet package? I have some people over here who might very well be interested in developing and marketing such a product. Of course it would be rather strange to have a company in Hawaii marketing products across the continental US -- hey, we do it with pineapple and sugar :- ) -- but if Atari's going gung-ho over all this, then maybe it would be worthwhile... Then again, if software/hardware experts like Jim Allen or Dave Small think it's feasable, then perhaps they'd like to take a crack at resurrecting a digitizer tablet at a price compatible with the ST market? (throw hint, throw hint). ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 107 Sat Jul 28, 1990 S.CEROVICH [Page Design] at 19:20 EDT Nate: I just have to ask... :-) Before you flew off across the pond, you mentioned something about a PD utility that'll load raster images into the background of O-Line... Of course, then you flew off to gain more frequent flyer points, leaving us wondering what utility... Cheers Sandy ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 108 Sat Jul 28, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 20:17 EDT Sandy: Glad you asked. I was wondering about that myself. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 109 Sun Jul 29, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 01:17 PDT I'll give odds that he was speaking of Easel or something. Not something that would actually put a raster image into the background of the Outline window. :- (....(still waiting for Silhouette) Digitizers: since the topic police are doing the most offending around I'll risk my bit by saying that CalComp has a new tablet out for PC's that uses the serial port and sells for about $299. Add a driver, and I think you'd have a product. Or am I simplifying things here? PS it's called The Wiz and it's really neat, I've seen it. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 110 Mon Jul 30, 1990 J.BROSZKOWS2 [Jerry] at 06:09 PDT You're welcome Nathan; now if you can only update OL to allow more characters in a formula. (Is it possible?) ...Jerry ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 111 Mon Jul 30, 1990 GORDON at 21:03 EDT Didn't Sandy purchase one???? ' ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 112 Mon Jul 30, 1990 NEVIN-S at 21:52 EDT Not to be a pest, or anything, but could someone answer my question in message #95? My question was this: I seem to see Outline graphics being used mostly for text manipulation (and borders). Things like logos, fancy headlines, etc. Is Outline at all appropriate for drawing THINGS, like people, animals, houses, a lock, a couch, two folks sharing an ice cream soda, etc? I have seen no examples of this. Just wondering if the program can do this...before I plunk down my bux. Thanks for any info (one way or the other). And if anyone has any non-logo examples, upload them..! --Nevin ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 113 Mon Jul 30, 1990 S.CEROVICH [Page Design] at 22:56 EDT Nevis: Sorry, I was going to reply to you, but I thought I'd dig a couple of examples up first.... Problem is, I had a hard drive crash not too long ago & lost everything that was on it. I'm just digging through about 400 floppies that I have backed up, trying to find some of the things I've done. Outline can indeed be used for 'drawing' as well as for logos and type manipulation. One of the things I regularly do in Outline is small maps... Client wants a small map on the back of their business card this week, next week they want one 3 times the size on the back of a brochure.... No prob.s - just size it up... being a vector graphic you don't have to worry about jaggies. I've done a few other things as well. If I can find 'em, I'll u/l em. Uh, hmmm... Nevis must be the condensed version of Nevin S... :-) Cheers Sandy ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 114 Tue Jul 31, 1990 NEVIN-S at 08:59 EDT Thanks, Sandy, I'd love to see them. --Nevin ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 115 Tue Jul 31, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 11:09 EDT I preferred to let other people answer Nevin, like Sandy as a good example. :- ) Mario, our on staff Graphic Artist says that basically it is not a pure illustration program like one of the bit map drawing packages but it certainly can be used for producing graphic images, logos, stylized illustrations such as editorial panels, maps etc. and of course it does excel in any kind of text manipulation. Jerry, I'll ask about that. It has never come up before. I know that LINE ART, the high end version of Outline Art, has many new features. It will be a module of Calamus SL. I'll check on the data range for a formula. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 116 Wed Aug 01, 1990 R.GILLIES at 01:23 PDT Nevin, I uploaded ZIPPER.ARC (file #16018)in honor of that Talk show skaliwag, Morton Downey Jr. His lasting contribution to popular culture can be summed up in his two favorite words, ZIP IT! :-) I hope this graphic can adequately suggest what's possible with Outline Art. My piece de resistance is still under construction for ISD's contest, but when you see it I think you'll agree it's every bit an illustrator program. ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 117 Wed Aug 01, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 06:42 EDT I look forward to seeing the piece de resistance. :-) Why do I have the feeling, that the wonderful world of EMail means that two days before the end of the contest I will receive 500 Email Xmodem uploads. :-) Oh Oh. Darlah, I want 9600 BAUD!!!! ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 118 Wed Aug 01, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 08:20 EDT Tee hee......didn't I tell you ALL contests work that way? Most of my work with contests is after the fact. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 119 Wed Aug 01, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 10:28 EDT Not all contests, just those that have EMail access. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 120 Wed Aug 01, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 11:02 EDT Believe me...I have experience with those. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 121 Wed Aug 01, 1990 R.FLASHMAN [Rick@Gribnif] at 13:52 EDT Peter Laird recently told me that outline has been great fun in doing general drawing and such. I haven't had a chance to see any of his work. But that's a plug if I ever heard one. Rick ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 122 Thu Aug 02, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 01:10 EDT Get me a number. I want to discuss this possibility further. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 123 Fri Aug 03, 1990 J.BROSZKOWS2 [Jerry] at 04:51 PDT LINE ART ??!? What new features & when? ...Jerry ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 124 Fri Aug 03, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:25 EDT Line Art...with the release of Calamus SL. I'll post features upon my return from Duesseldorf. When, no comment at this time!! Seriously though, I'll know better after Duesseldorf. It is their intention to have Calamus SL finished at that time. I will still have to translate the new manuals and add my own touch to them this time, unlike the original Calamus manual. I'll let you know. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 125 Sun Aug 05, 1990 T.MOORE at 23:20 CDT Is there a way to import bit mappede scanned graphics into Calamus Outline. It would be nice to manually trace the images with bezeire curves. Would outline be appropriate for this application? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 126 Mon Aug 06, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 13:21 EDT Not stand alone. An excellent raster to vector auto tracer etc. is one of the Calamus SL modules. As Line ART will also be a module, the available drawing and editing of graphics capabilities of Calamus goes up dramatically. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 127 Mon Aug 06, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 19:06 PDT Any news yet on upgrade path from Outline Art? (whoops, Dusseldorf, right?) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 128 Tue Aug 07, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:27 EDT Maybe :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 129 Thu Aug 09, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 10:49 EDT Out of curiousity, going on the assumption that I will get a ton of EMail XModem entries for the Outline Art contest a few days prior to the end of the contest, may I assume that a few of you are in fact working on an entry submission? Using Email is a lot different from the usual contest where entries start appearing almost immediately so as I said, I'm just curious. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 130 Thu Aug 09, 1990 BHARTSHORNE at 23:39 EDT Nathan, Yes I am working on an entry, but probably compared to all these experts here it will seem, well, primitive, but I am trying. On another subject-you do know that you are only causing us like Pavlov to salivate when you mention all the features of SL-and did i hear a brief hint that it may soon be done-or am I dreaming again? Why has noone bothered with auto-tracing for bit-mapped graphics for the ST? I have some great IMG's that get jaggies galore when resized. I originally ordered Silhouette when I heard of it in Start Mag. Is there a possibility i tmight see the light of day? By the way Nathan i got some raves on some signs I did with Outline and Calamus... anot(another plug!) Sincerely-Bill PS Some of the above questions I would love to have answered by anyone... ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 131 Fri Aug 10, 1990 S.CEROVICH [Page Design] at 00:49 EDT Bill: Don't stop salivating... Auto Trace is going to be in SL. When last I spoke to the people that are doing Silhouette, I was assured that it will be released. Their latest release date is "August", but they said they wanted to release it right... not full of bugs. I think I'd rather wait than be disappointed. Cheers Sandy ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 132 Fri Aug 10, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 01:00 PDT I've got to admit; summer is not a good time to get something programmed in a hurry; there's just too much BEACH out there.... Nathan, I assure you I am NOT working on anything for the contest. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 133 Fri Aug 10, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:01 EDT As Sandy mentioned, A fairly sophisticated Auto Trace Module will be part of Calamus SL. And Ron...you are more than welcome to submit an entry. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 134 Sat Aug 11, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 00:33 PDT Well, that's very kind, Nathan. But it might blow up my brain. I'm a little taxed these days for time, and Outline is not the sort of thing one sits down and puddles with. In fact, I'm not very good at it. But, one never knows.... ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 135 Fri Aug 17, 1990 BHARTSHORNE at 23:39 EDT Thanks Sandy,-I was beginning to think I was the only one who had heard of Silhouette. I agree that a bug free program is worth waiting for. But I am sure if they wait too long SL may make it DOA-hope to see both soon Thanks again! Bill ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 136 Sat Aug 18, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 00:52 PDT Bill, it depends on the both the functionality of each program and the native file format each chooses. I imagine SL will use .CVG format only, whereas Silhouette is still up in the air about which vector format to support. I've suggested one of the PC vector file formats, (for instance, CGM format) because this would give us access to some of the graphics being done with Corel Draw and the like. I imagine I'll wind up owning both, as will most serious users. ($igh) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 137 Thu Sep 06, 1990 R.NOAK at 01:17 EDT Will Line Art be an upgrade from Outline, or just a "module" of Calamus SL? Those of us that use another DTP program, but would also like a drawing program that has the features of Line Art would like to know. Thanks. Randy ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 138 Thu Sep 06, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:56 EDT Good question Randy. I'll have to get back to you on that one. I imagine that initially it will be a module but could be released as a stand alone program. If you are a Pagestream user then I wonder if you might ask why so few of their users bought Outline Art comparitively speaking. This ultimately may affect any decision regarding Line Art as it was I that decided to add that Convert 2X program so that Pagestream customers could use it as well. In Germany, where Calamus originates, no other program is an issue. Everything is done specifically for Calamus. They have already outsold Quark Express in Germany etc. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 139 Thu Sep 06, 1990 B.REHBOCK at 23:58 EDT I bought Outline Art :-) (Although I use Corel Draw quite often, at least until C/SL is released >:-) Seriously, though, the only thing that I'm Corel Draw has over O-Line is fountain fills and color. (Unless, of course you like watching Window's _slooooow screen redraws:-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 140 Fri Sep 07, 1990 R.NOAK at 02:59 EDT Well, I just ordered Outline... From what I read in the on-line conference, I thought that Outline would be upgraded to Line Art. Then, from what I read here, Line Art will be a module of Calamus. I think that the reason that so few PageStream users have ordered Outline is that most PGS users are satisfied with PGS output and don't use Ultrascript. Therefore, since the CVG format is (so I've heard) a "secret", they can't use Outline with PageStream (unless they also use UltraScript). If Outline won't be upgradeable to Line Art, with all it's neat promised features, I kind of feel that I just wasted some money. Randy Southlake Publishing ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 141 Fri Sep 07, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 00:17 PDT Randy, are you saying that Pagestream will not print EPS imported graphics without printing a PostScript file? In other words, if you import an EPS graphic from something like Outline ARt, or even Freehand on the Spectre, you would have to print using PostScript, and not the built in print routines of Pagestream? Geez, is there NO WAY to convert an EPS graphic to something USABLE? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 142 Fri Sep 07, 1990 T.JOHNSON4 [Cherry Fonts] at 01:25 PDT Ron, EPSF files (being actual postscript code) would have to be interpreted by nothing short of a full Postscript print engine. If PageStream had the ability to do that, we wouldn't need Ultrascript to obtain true postscript output. If the EPSF file contains the bitmap image, PageStream SHOULD be able to handle that. (Not sure if it does or not.) ..Todd ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 143 Fri Sep 07, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 08:29 EDT Let's ask Nevin, he'll know about the EPS aspect. :-) Bill, glad to read you finally broke down. Thanks. :-) Randy, you raise a valid point. So let me say this, if sales to Pagestream owners warrant the release of Line Art as a separate package then we will have one for you. In the same breathe let me say that so far, those sales represent a minimal amount.(sigh) Actually, the more that I think of it, almost definitely Line Art will also be available stand-alone for those Calamus owners that are quite satisfied with 1.09. We'll see. No guarantees here as the program does come from DMC out of Germany but if it makes sense, then it makes sense and we'll do it. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 144 Fri Sep 07, 1990 NEVIN-S at 21:47 EDT Todd is 100% correct in saying that EPS requires either UScript or a PostScript printer to print. If DMC made the CVG format public, then SoftLogik would (I should say "might", since it is not my company) make an import module for it. I would hope that DMC would make the format public, but I would understand if they did not want to do so..! As far as printing the bit image files that accompany some EPS files, PageStream 1.8 does not deal with these at all. And besides, the bit image files rarely correspond fully to the actual EPS. To summarize: you need PostScript or equivalent to print EPS; if the CVG file format were made available, an import module for PGS would most likely be created; the bit image files which accompany some EPS files are not really worth printing. See you around, folks..! --Nevin ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 145 Sat Sep 08, 1990 B.REHBOCK at 00:29 EDT Nathan, I've had Outline since day one :-) (I'm pretty sure...#300097... that seems pretty low) No self-respecting DTP'r could survive without the Atari/PageStream/Calamus/O-Line/EasyDraw/Touch-Up arsenal. They all do work together quite well and relatively seamlessly, and priced out even at their full-blow incarnations (Migraph Hand-Scanner,EZ Tools, EZDraw-3 upgrade, etc.), the _retail_ price on all the software is only around $1200. Ventura v3.0-> $895 PageMaker->$795 Adobe TypeAlign->$99.95 ...that puts things into perspective. What Calamus (and PageStream) need badly is enhanced text import routines that will handle .dbf, Superbase, .WKS/1 files and let the user select fieldnames/ranges during import. One last thing, how soon before Calamus and O-Line run in 640 x 480 x 16? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 146 Sat Sep 08, 1990 R.NOAK at 00:42 EDT Nathan, Thanks for the reply. I'm glad that you are tilting towards allowing Outline to be upgradable. I held off buying Outline until I got Ultrascript and saw the DTP RT conference which implied that it (Outline) would be upgradable. I think that releasing the CVG format would sell LOTS of copies of Outline to those of us that use PageStream. Even Adobe released their hinting to others. Thanks again for the quick reply, if ISD ever decides to grace Atari user groups with Calamus, I promise to give it a through workout and will report here if I switch. Randy Noak Southlake Publishing ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 147 Fri Sep 07, 1990 R.GILLIES at 23:18 PDT After investigating to see what OUTLINE ART has over the MAC variety of illustrating programs, I have yet to find a MAC program that has anything like O-LINE's CONTROL PATH object tool. The closest I found was TYPESTYLER's pre- set variety of font manipulation, but O-LINE's CONTRO CONTROL PATH feature no approximation on any MAC program that I know of. :-) ...Bob ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 148 Sat Sep 08, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 00:15 PDT B.REHBOCK, I can't agree with you more on the .dbf etc. importability; if SL does not include this sort of thing, you can bet that SOME enterprising third- party developer will create a module for playing with databases in Calamus. :- ) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 149 Sat Sep 08, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:02 EDT Nevin et al; Calamus SL is modular. One of the reasons that it was designed in this fashion, is to allow 3rd parties to easily incorporate their wish list. One example is that CVG format info will be made available to all relevant parties, under non-disclosure, so that they can incorporate it into their own or convert their own into it. This is a two way street after all. :- ) If Germany doesn't come out with import capabilities for files formats such as wk1. then we will be able to do it ourselves. Same for databases etc. We will be able to supply all of the tools for anyone to hook in their favorite file format for use within Calamus. Calamus SL handles 16 color at 640 x 480 and Line Art, the daddy of Outline Art will be included with SL so just wait til Comdex. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 150 Sat Sep 08, 1990 NEVIN-S at 10:15 EDT Not to get too much off the subject, but how hard is it to make any decent database print to disk and then import from there? With Calamus or PageStream I could set up a doc with tabs, then export my Superbase file using Tabs as the field delimiter and cr/lf as the record delimiter. This would take me about 2 minutes to set up the doc and 2 minutes to do the Superbase file export. I guess I am missing something... --Nevin ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 151 Sat Sep 08, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 21:46 EDT I guess this will save everyone the 2 minutes. :-) Randy...my curiousity has been aroused. You have implied that I have something against User Groups, I think. As this is simply not true, perhaps you'd care to expand on your previous post. I admit that ISD did not do a blanket free mailout of our $2,000.+ software programs, but then did you expect us to? Seriously, I would appreciate hearing an answer to this. Many Atari User group did in fact get a free copy of Calamus. Very few got a free copy of DynaCADD. Are you suggesting that this hurt our sales? I did create and upload a complete working demo version of Calamus and DynaCADD and Outline ART for everyone to test and play with. All features work except for save. I know that many hundreds if not thousands of people first got into our programs in this fashion. If you'd care to address this issue on behalf of your local user group, then please send me EMail. I would be happy to discuss it with you or any other representatives of their local user group. *s ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 152 Sun Sep 09, 1990 R.NOAK at 01:03 EDT Nathan, NO,NO,NO, I did NOT mean to imply that you had anything against User Groups! Nothing could be further from the truth. Your support of your product, Atari in general is well-known, and is, indeed, one of the things that makes ISD one of the top developers/distributors in the Atari community. I'm VERY sorry that you got that impression. E-mail to you later. Randy ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 153 Sun Sep 09, 1990 B.REHBOCK at 01:14 EDT Nevin, I was wishing for a PageMaker-Type import where you could specify which fields of a database you wanted to import. It's just one of those step- savers, even if it's only three minutes. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 154 Sun Sep 09, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 01:35 PDT Nevin, re: Databases and Calamus/Pagestream. You've got the procedure for importing databases nailed allright. What you're missing is that the next time the database changed, you'd have to go through that same procedure again. It'd be nice to be able to just import a .DBF or .DIF or .SDF or .WHATEVER file. It'd be REALLY nice if you could just tell Calamus that you wanted that particular file in that particular spot, and everytime you loaded the .CDK file Calamus would go and get the (newest) database file. You also currently wind up with a fairly straight forward text frame, without the ability to change font sizes or styles from one field to the next. Because databases are vertical lists of information, and DTP works with horizontal lines, combining the two can create some special headaches. What would be on MY wish list is a specialized text ruler that imported according to FIELDS of each record; i.e. the first column (say, the item description) could be in Times 12 point flush left, while the next column (let's say the model number) could be Swiss ten point left, the third column being a price could be Swiss ten point decimally oriented, while the fourth a 'date shipping' or something, centre justified. If you decided to make the model number nine point instead, you could just adjust the text ruler at the top of the database, and all following text in that column would be reformatted. You see my point; a properly laid out table is going to contain more than one size, style, format, etc. And I don't know about Pagestream but currently Calamus allows only one text ruler per line. I can change the size and style for each field, but I can't do it automatically for every record. I like macros, and that's how I do it right now, but it can be very booorrrrring to do this for every record of a five hundred record catalog. Once it's done, I can Search and Replace Styles if I want, but it's not the same thing. What if I want to change justification? However, it's as I've said; it doesn't matter if SL contains the facility or not, because if it doesn't, some third party developer will release a LIVE DATABASE DTP module. Anyone else have suggestions as to what should be in such a module? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 155 Sun Sep 09, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 08:52 EDT Suggestions, of course, are always welcome. And Ron's right. What do you think Nevin, does it sound to you like Ron is getting ready to write such a module? :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 156 Sun Sep 09, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:09 EDT And Randy, thanks for the kind words. I appreciate them and it does clear up the confusion. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 157 Sun Sep 09, 1990 DOUG.W at 17:51 EDT Nathan, Ron brought up a good point. Any change of "live links" in Calamus? If you're not familiar with them, live links cause changes in a file to be "echoed" to any document with has that file in it. For example, if you imported a text file and a picture into a Calamus doc., any changes to the original text file or picture (with another program) would automatically be reflected in the Calamus doc. --Doug ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 158 Sun Sep 09, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 17:53 EDT Personally, I hate "live links". I remember using Ventura Publishing in that era "BEFORE CALAMUS". :-) The absolute first thing that I always had to remember to do was rename everything that I brought in so that any changes that I made did not screw up the original file. So NO live links. But thanks for the suggestion Doug. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 159 Sun Sep 09, 1990 DOUG.W at 18:02 EDT Nathan, it needs to be an option in the file selector to either stay live or not. I agree that having EVERYTHING be live would be worthless. --Doug ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 160 Sun Sep 09, 1990 NEVIN-S at 20:24 EDT I hate live links too. DeskSet has live links. That is why that program is so popular --Nevin ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 161 Sun Sep 09, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 23:16 PDT 'Live' is definitely an optional thing. I was happy as could be when I first used a program that directly imported a file and didn't need to have all your paths properly set. However, in the case of a database, it'd be nice to have a flag to ask Calamus check the timestamp of a file to see if it'd been changed, then ask if the user wanted to re-import. We ARE all using clocks now, aren't we? ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 162 Mon Sep 10, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 08:27 EDT Clocks, I don't use a clock. :-) I use my watch. Or I type TIME on GEnie. One or the other is always handy. If I need a date on something, since I use Calamus all day long, I type it in. :-) But these are all valid ideas. Now expand on them for a while until I have the SL documentation...in English. :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 164 Mon Sep 10, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 19:08 EDT Well a good majority of us do use clocks. ;-) Picking up a hand to look is heavy work. I avoid doing it at every single second. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 165 Mon Sep 10, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 18:23 PDT Sheesh. That's what I get for being a smart-alec, I guess. I should have said TIME STAMPING of course. There. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 166 Mon Sep 10, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 22:12 EDT Oh! :-) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 167 Wed Sep 12, 1990 B.REHBOCK at 01:34 EDT Nevin: (re:DSet) :-) Live links would be nice as long as they're optional. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 168 Wed Sep 12, 1990 NEVIN-S at 07:53 EDT Yes, optional live links would be fine. That way I could never use them . --Nevin ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 169 Tue Oct 02, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:28 EDT REALM...you asked about an Outline Art module for DynaCADD in EMail to me last night. As I mentioned, all support questions will be answered in the BB so that all may share the information and I don't end up repeating the same answers over and over again :-) DynaCADD allows you to export not only an IMG file but a GEM metafile as well. This is far cleaner than an IMG and I recommend that you use it in the future. Many of the features of DynaCADD are literally to esoteric or CAD specific to be added to Outline Art. However, the new version of Outline Art, Line ART, will be a module of Calamus SL and will contain far more extensive drawing capabilities. They will not turn Calamus into DynaCADD though. Zooming in on an area, which you can do now with the user definable view option, will be greatly enhanced with the SL version. A magnifying glass icon has been added and will allow you to zoom and zoom and zoom. :-) Loading a picture in the background will no longer be an issue with Calamus SL as you can import whatever you want for the background and then use the Line Art module to create. For that matter, once the raster to vector tracing module is complete, you will also use it from within Calamus SL as it will also be a module. To create a perfect raster circle use the x, y coordinates for th the time being. Again, in Calamus SL, there will be a paint program module and I imagine that this will be one of the standard features. Thanks for the suggestions and I appreciate the input. I hope all of you understand the logic behind my repeating REALM's questions here and sharing this with everyone. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 170 Wed Oct 03, 1990 REALM at 02:24 EDT Nathan, Thanks for the info! I didn't really understand the answer about the Outline Driver for DynaCADD. Basically, I want to convert my logo from DynaCADD to Outline Art or the .OL format. I've output a GEM image and converted it to the .CVG format but it breaks the 100K limit on Outline. I then broke it into smaller pieces but theres not much you can do with the .CVG file format in Outline. I was asking if I could get an Outline Plotter Driver or if it's even possible so I don't have to retrace the original drawing. If I can't get a driver I'll have to load the CVG file, retrace the logo and then delete the CVG file leaving the OL file. I tried the GEM file a while back but I don't remember the Solid Fills from DynaCADD coming out in the finished product. It sounds like your one step ahead of me on Calamus SL. Looks like your about to set new standards in the Atari DTP or any other DTP Platform for that matter. I look forward to this program! Thanks again for the great support! REALM P.S. I still want a Zoom Last! (grin) ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 171 Wed Oct 03, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 09:00 EDT Realm, do me a favour...send me your logo from DynaCADD as a DynaCADD file and lets see what we can do for you around here. My guys need a challenge. :-) I'm serious. We have some unreleased stuff floating around here that may solve your problem. ps, I also want ZOOM last but as far as I know, neither of us will get our wish just now, sorry. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 172 Wed Oct 03, 1990 REALM at 21:28 EDT Nathan, I'll get a file together and ship it Xmodem. I messed with it some last night but I think Calamus was losing some info in the CVG translation. I think someone before said to load it into Easydraw and save the GEM file again but I haven't had time to try it. The GEM file was fine in Calamus. The CVG file in Outline has about 20,000 little boxes, it's pretty funny. Thanks for the offer you could save me a lot of work! ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 173 Thu Oct 04, 1990 ISD [Nathan] at 08:36 EDT I noticed that the file is in my mail. Unfortunately I leave in a few minutes for the Washington. I'll download it first thing Monday morning when I get back. ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 174 Sat Oct 06, 1990 SGUBER at 14:57 CDT Rela alm: If you have access to an IBM machine, I hae a solution to your problem. H Save the file as a DXF format, and let Word Perfect 5.0 converter make it into a .WPG file. I sell a program to change word perfect graphcis files into .GEM format. This is a clumsy work around, but it takes less than 3 minutes to do all of the file transfers. Sol Guber ------------ Category 16, Topic 8 Message 175 Sat Oct 06, 1990 REALM at 17:58 EDT SGUBER, Thanks for the info but DynaCADD will output a GEM file. It's just that a GEM file is made up of about 20,000 small straight lines. I really want to get it into the Outline format because the DynaCADD logo is filled using four sided figures instead of a true fill like Outline uses. It's also a lot easier to change for different purposes. I think Nathen has some in house tricks he can try. I'd still hope to see a DynaCADD conversion program in the future. I wouldn't mind being able to make CAD-3D templates using Outline or DynaCADD either. Even a CVG to Outline convert Program would help or just drop the CVG format in Calamus SL and use OL. I don't really know if thats feasible but but I would try to minimize the number of formats and maximize(?) the number of output devices. Well, thats enough run-on text for today... ------------ REPly ?